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 Topic: First Living Cell - How life began

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  • First Living Cell - How life began
     OP - July 14, 2013, 02:35 PM
    What's up guys.. What do you think about how life began? How was first living cell formed?
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #1 - July 14, 2013, 02:40 PM
    Freak accident.

    "In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." - Douglas Adams
    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #2 - July 14, 2013, 02:47 PM
    i asked your opinion not Douglas Adams's,
    just kidding.
    So do you believe in that the first living cell was formed by random spontaneous chemical processes?
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #3 - July 14, 2013, 02:52 PM
    The word to search for seem to be Abiogenesis.
    This is a question that has kept me awake more than one night.
    Quote from: clyde86 on July 14, 2013, 02:47 PM
    So do you believe in that the first living cell was formed by random spontaneous chemical processes?

    The basic chemicals that are necessary for carbon based life and RNA/DNA are present naturally. A good deal of the mechanics also are built into the chemicals. For instance, once you have phospholipids you will have Lipid Bilayer structures which are necessary for cell membranes.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK26871
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis#Lipid_world

    Amino acid present in a comet.
    http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/stardust/news/stardust_amino_acid.html
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #4 - July 14, 2013, 02:53 PM
    In the worlds before Monkey, primal chaos reigned.
    Heaven sought order.
    But the phoenix can fly only when its feathers are grown.

    The four worlds formed again and yet again,
    As endless aeons wheeled and passed.
    Time and the pure essences of Heaven,
    the moisture of the Earth,
    the powers of the sun and the moon
    All worked upon a certain rock, old as creation.
    And it became magically fertile.
    That first egg was named "Thought".

    Tathagata Buddha, the Father Buddha, said,
    "With our thoughts, we make the world."
    Elemental forces caused the egg to hatch.
    From it then came a stone monkey.
    The nature of Monkey was irrepressible!
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #5 - July 14, 2013, 03:06 PM
     
    Quote from: dagon on July 14, 2013, 02:52 PM
    The word to search for seem to be Abiogenesis.
    This is a question that has kept me awake more than one night.The basic chemicals that are necessary for carbon based life and RNA/DNA are present naturally. A good deal of the mechanics also are built into the chemicals. For instance, once you have phospholipids you will have Lipid Bilayer structures which are necessary for cell membranes.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK26871
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis#Lipid_world

    Amino acid present in a comet.
    http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/stardust/news/stardust_amino_acid.html


    I see but for example, how was DNA formed? because we know that it is a very complex molecule, and all living organisms have it. Do you think that random chemical processes built dna?
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #6 - July 14, 2013, 03:06 PM
    Quote from: clyde86 on July 14, 2013, 02:47 PM
    So do you believe in that the first living cell was formed by random spontaneous chemical processes?


    "Believe" is probably too strong a word. I would say I find it possible (as per dagon's post above - thanks dagon! grin12) and with my current knowledge way more likely (in my mind) than a supernatural/extraterrestrial entity kicking the whole thing off.

    Then there is the whole Big Bang-thing. As we (our current Universe) seem to be confined in that bubble - at least for now - it must be quite hard to look outside it. Now THAT would be mind-blowing! mysmilie_977

    Luckily I'm blessed with about equal doses of non-belief and ignorance, so I have no real struggle trying to figure out where we came from and where are we going.

    Well, at least not at this time parrot
    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #7 - July 14, 2013, 03:21 PM
    Aliens came and injected organic material onto the planet.  After that, evolution takes care of the rest.



    Or... a meteor strike with organic material that survived crashing into the earth...

    All jokes aside, I find that a lot more probable than claiming some god (out of a billion other proposed gods/goddesses) did it.
    "If a monster existed, it was buried deep within."
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #8 - July 14, 2013, 03:24 PM
    Then how was the first alien living cell formed:)
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #9 - July 14, 2013, 03:29 PM
    Quote from: Nikolaj on July 14, 2013, 03:06 PM
    "Believe" is probably too strong a word. I would say I find it possible (as per dagon's post above - thanks dagon! grin12) and with my current knowledge way more likely (in my mind) than a supernatural/extraterrestrial entity kicking the whole thing off.

    Then there is the whole Big Bang-thing. As we (our current Universe) seem to be confined in that bubble - at least for now - it must be quite hard to look outside it. Now THAT would be mind-blowing! mysmilie_977

    Luckily I'm blessed with about equal doses of non-belief and ignorance, so I have no real struggle trying to figure out where we came from and where are we going.

    Well, at least not at this time parrot


    By the way, I am not saying that because i have religion or not, but religion does not deny big bang theory. To be honest, to think that random processes can build DNA or these kind of structures, do not make sense so much to me too.
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #10 - July 14, 2013, 03:32 PM
    Quote from: clyde86 on July 14, 2013, 03:24 PM
    Then how was the first alien living cell formed:)


    The same way the first god was formed.
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #11 - July 14, 2013, 03:39 PM
    i thought u did not believe in God(s) Smiley
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #12 - July 14, 2013, 03:43 PM
    How's Ramadan going, Dahir?
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #13 - July 14, 2013, 03:43 PM
    Quote from: clyde86 on July 14, 2013, 03:24 PM
    Then how was the first alien living cell formed:)


    They came from another universe (let's call it A) where the laws are different to here (let's call ours B), they were formed when their universe was formed - so the first alien living cell doesn't make sense.  I don't know how universe A was formed, but there is one theory: an advanced super race from yet another universe (let's call it C) apparently created universe A, they had such power and capability to do it.

    Now you might ask how the advanced super race from universe C was formed? Well their universe popped into existence from nothing due to random fluctuations (see lecture on Youtube: Lawrence Krauss - A Universe From Nothing) and the laws also operate differently in that universe such that lifeform is silicon based and not carbon based.

    Hmm... I should create a religion now.

    Quote from: clyde86 on July 14, 2013, 03:29 PM
    By the way, I am not saying that because i have religion or not, but religion does not deny big bang theory. To be honest, to think that random processes can build DNA or these kind of structures, do not make sense so much to me too.


    Then why not read about it? Seriously, it always annoys me when people complain about things like this but can't be bothered to read or watch something that'll explain it.  It's so easy these days.
    "If a monster existed, it was buried deep within."
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #14 - July 14, 2013, 04:01 PM
    Quote from: clyde86 on July 14, 2013, 03:06 PM

    I see but for example, how was DNA formed? because we know that it is a very complex molecule, and all living organisms have it. Do you think that random chemical processes built dna?

    Yes. But it's much harder to explain how it was first reproduced (DNA polymerase) and transcribed(RNA polymerase). The answer to the question if I believe these came from random processes is also yes.

    A word of caution though. Random in chemistry and biology isn't the same thing as flipping a dice. If you have a set of chemicals already and leave them in a certain environment, light/temperature/pressure, for a given time then not just 'whatever' will come out of this but you will have certain paths of action that are predominant.
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #15 - July 14, 2013, 04:08 PM
    I would think the same way rain is created. You can say the rain God makes them by doing some hoo do vood everyday (Which is what tribal humans use to believe because they didn't know any better) or you can accept that the earth has special gases and temperatures that creates the rain when the conditions are right. Chemicals in the universe can come together to create the elements which is why some planets have them and some don't. So I don't see why humans have to be the exception. Everything can be explained with Science, because everything follows a certain law and order in physics. If God had a hand to play things then there would be no laws and everything would just occur at his/her will. Like raining stones, and flying horse ladies  Roll Eyes
    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #16 - July 14, 2013, 04:08 PM
    Quote from: clyde86 on July 14, 2013, 03:06 PM
    I see but for example, how was DNA formed?

    It was made by magic out of dust by a spirit in ancient Middle-Eastern mythology.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #17 - July 14, 2013, 04:13 PM
    Quote from: dagon on July 14, 2013, 04:01 PM
    Yes. But it's much harder to explain how it was first reproduced (DNA polymerase) and transcribed(RNA polymerase). The answer to the question if I believe these came from random processes is also yes.

    A word of caution though. Random in chemistry and biology isn't the same thing as flipping a dice. If you have a set of chemicals already and leave them in a certain environment, light/temperature/pressure, for a given time then not just 'whatever' will come out of this but you will have certain paths of action that are predominant.



    so these certain chemicals, certain environment, certain light, certain temperature, certain pressure... do you think these "certains" were random too?
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #18 - July 14, 2013, 04:23 PM
    ^ You haven't proved my alien-multiverse-advance-super-race religion wrong, so it must be true.
    "If a monster existed, it was buried deep within."
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #19 - July 14, 2013, 04:23 PM
    Quote from: Crunchy Cds on July 14, 2013, 04:08 PM
    I would think the same way rain is created. You can say the rain God makes them by doing some hoo do vood everyday (Which is what tribal humans use to believe because they didn't know any better) or you can accept that the earth has special gases and temperatures that creates the rain when the conditions are right. Chemicals in the universe can come together to create the elements which is why some planets have them and some don't. So I don't see why humans have to be the exception. Everything can be explained with Science, because everything follows a certain law and order in physics. If God had a hand to play things then there would be no laws and everything would just occur at his/her will. Like raining stones, and flying horse ladies  Roll Eyes


    You say "Everything can be explained with Science".... I am not even talking about the beginning of life, simpler thing.. explain yawning to me with science. I am not saying that science is stupid. Science is great and i love science. but i don't think everything can be explained by science. and I see your point but still I would not compare raining with creating a new life.

    And about physical laws too, how were these laws created? Physical laws are random stuff too? In the universe, the countless starts, planets,.... are in perfect harmony, not in chaos. Do you think that this harmony is the result of random conditions too?
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #20 - July 14, 2013, 04:25 PM
    Quote from: Final Fantasy on July 14, 2013, 04:23 PM
    ^ You haven't proved my alien-multiverse-advance-super-race religion wrong, so it must be true.


    How was that first silicon created in that universe Smiley
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #21 - July 14, 2013, 04:33 PM
    Quote from: clyde86 on July 14, 2013, 04:23 PM
    You say "Everything can be explained with Science".... I am not even talking about the beginning of life, simpler thing.. explain yawning to me with science. I am not saying that science is stupid. Science is great and i love science. but i don't think everything can be explained by science. and I see your point but still I would not compare raining with creating a new life.


    Seriously?

    Alright with yawning there's a number of proposed theories and studies.  Medically however, see here: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003096.htm

    Tell me, you knit-picking little things like this, is it because you genuinely want to know or because makes you more comfortable living in fantasyland?  Fair enough, and good for you, if you genuinely want to know how things work (if this is the case, then Google is your best friend).

    Quote
    And about physical laws too, how were these laws created?


    That doesn't really make sense, our universe was formed with certain laws (which we eventually discovered), those laws are the reason our universe is the way it is.  If you accept multiple universes, it's been proposed that they have their own set of laws different to ours.

    Quote
    Physical laws are random stuff too?


    What do you mean by that? That each universe randomly forms a certain set of laws to support itself? I wouldn't know, I suppose I could try to find out but I doubt there's been enough study in this area.

    Quote
    In the universe, the countless starts, planets,.... are in perfect harmony, not in chaos. Do you think that this harmony is the result of random conditions too?


    Lol, quite foolish if you think stars and planets are in perfect harmony.  Space is full of chaos and destruction.  The stars you see at night probably don't even exist anymore.
    "If a monster existed, it was buried deep within."
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #22 - July 14, 2013, 04:34 PM
    Quote from: clyde86 on July 14, 2013, 04:25 PM
    How was that first silicon created in that universe Smiley


    When Universe C was popped into existence, a silicon based planet through unknown laws was also formed at the same time.
    "If a monster existed, it was buried deep within."
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #23 - July 14, 2013, 04:38 PM
    Quote from: clyde86 on July 14, 2013, 04:23 PM
    And about physical laws too, how were these laws created? Physical laws are random stuff too? In the universe, the countless starts, planets,.... are in perfect harmony, not in chaos. Do you think that this harmony is the result of random conditions too?

    I thought you was genuinely curious at one point, but it seems you're asking an ever-increasing amount of rapid-fire big questions that require complex answers just to get to a point where people exhaust the limits of current knowledge. It seems to me that if you was genuinely curious, you would have previously looked these things up in your own time and that you would have some general knowledge about them.

    Are you looking for understanding or are you looking for a gap for God?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #24 - July 14, 2013, 04:51 PM
    Well, if we don't know, Ishina, then it must be god. We used to not now where thunder came from. So it was god. Until we figured it out, of course. We used to not know how the rain fell, so we needed a god there too. Good thing we figured that out. Now god hangs out only at the very beginning of the universe. Until we push him from there, it's what the religious will cling on to.
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #25 - July 14, 2013, 04:51 PM
    Quote from: clyde86 on July 14, 2013, 04:13 PM
    so these certain chemicals, certain environment, certain light, certain temperature, certain pressure... do you think these "certains" were random too?

    It was just a loose example to try and push you in the direction of understanding a possible scientific explanation. If you want to get into this further you need to look into the basics of organic chemistry and cell metabolism.

    I think, in the end, what you really want to know is if I think there is room for a creator in the whole chain of event. I'm not really interested in finding that out. Maybe there is and maybe there isn't. I just feel it doesn't solve any reall problems but give you a set of new problems instead. Is there just one god? Is god good?

    Quote from: Ishina on July 14, 2013, 04:38 PM
    I thought you was genuinely curious at one point, but it seems you're asking an ever-increasing amount of rapid-fire big questions that require complex answers just to get to a point where people exhaust the limits of current knowledge.

    +1
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #26 - July 14, 2013, 05:03 PM
    Quote from: dagon on July 14, 2013, 04:51 PM
    I think, in the end, what you really want to know is if I think there is room for a creator in the whole chain of event. I'm not really interested in finding that out. Maybe there is and maybe there isn't. I just feel it doesn't solve any reall problems but give you a set of new problems instead. Is there just one god? Is god good?


    +1
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #27 - July 14, 2013, 05:23 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on July 14, 2013, 04:51 PM
    Well, if we don't know, Ishina, then it must be god. We used to not now where thunder came from. So it was god. Until we figured it out, of course. We used to not know how the rain fell, so we needed a god there too. Good thing we figured that out. Now god hangs out only at the very beginning of the universe. Until we push him from there, it's what the religious will cling on to.

    spot on  13
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #28 - July 14, 2013, 05:31 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on July 14, 2013, 04:51 PM
    Well, if we don't know, Ishina, then it must be god. We used to not now where thunder came from. So it was god. Until we figured it out, of course. We used to not know how the rain fell, so we needed a god there too. Good thing we figured that out. Now god hangs out only at the very beginning of the universe. Until we push him from there, it's what the religious will cling on to.

    Yeah. God literally changes shape according to the present amount of unverified and unmeasured room. Early religion had nature spirits, avatars and embodiments of certain primal elements, gods of thunder and water and sky. They walked the earth, led wars, wrecked shit. Even the Abrahamic all-deity has changed his form, from fire and brimstone, plagues, genocides, to that of a guiding and sustaining 'force'. Now god's shape is that of elusive physics, a theory, a singularity, a datum, beyond apprehension, the thinnest vapours of nothingness. Not logical, but the very essence of logic itself.

    Nietzsche said it right:

    "The other idiosyncrasy of philosophers is no less perilous; it consists in mistaking the last for the first. They put that which comes at the end — unfortunately! for it ought not to come at all! — the 'highest concepts', that is to say the most general, the emptiest concepts, the last fumes of evaporating reality — at the beginning as the beginning. It is again only the expression of their way of showing reverence: the higher must not be allowed to grow out of the lower, must not be allowed to have grown at all... Moral: whatever is of the first rank must be causa sui. Origin in something else counts as an objection, as casting a doubt on value. All supreme values are of the first rank; all the supreme concepts, that which is, the unconditioned, the good, the true, the perfect — all that cannot have become, must therefore be causa sui. But neither can these supreme concepts be incommensurate with one another, be incompatible with one another... Thus they arrive at their stupendous concept, 'God'. The last, thinnest, emptiest is placed as the first, as cause in itself, as ens realissimum... That mankind should have taken seriously the brain-sick fancies of morbid cobweb-spinners! — And it has paid dearly for doing so!"
    -  Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • First Living Cell - How life began
     Reply #29 - July 14, 2013, 05:47 PM
    Quote
    so these certain chemicals, certain environment, certain light, certain temperature, certain pressure... do you think these "certains" were random too?


    If clyde86 is using this example then that's just ridiculous not to mention arrogant.  It assumes that all these conditions were made for us! In reality it's the opposite, we are only able to be here in our current shape and form because of those conditions - if it were different we would either not be here or have evolved in a different direction.

    Douglas Adams explains it best in his analogy using a puddle:

    “This is rather as if you imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for.”
    "If a monster existed, it was buried deep within."
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