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 Topic: Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.

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  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #30 - August 10, 2013, 08:42 PM
    Islam can be extremely attractive. Its straightforwardness, its simplicity, its appeal to a direct connection between the creator and the creation are all things that I found very appealing when I was a Muslim. Also, as Quod mentioned, being a part of a community bonded by certain beliefs and practices can be very comforting.

    The problem, however, is that Islam does not assert itself as an option but rather the only option. It subjects you to all sorts of verbal, mental, and social abuse if you even begin to question it.

    It deflects all of its internal weaknesses and instead casts them onto you, the person." If you doubt me, you must be evil," Islam says. "If I don't make sense to you, you must have sinned. If you find contradictions in me, it is because you are too dumb to fully understand."

    Islam manipulates the trust that we put in it. It manipulates our own doubt to use to its advantage.  

    "Thalikal kitabu laa raiba feeh" Heh.

    Laa raib my ass. There is plenty of raib. It's saturated with raib. That is why the biggest sin is doubt and disbelief. If it were true, it would not need to use such tactics.

    As I see it, we are the jury and Islam is on trial. Whether or not Islam can present a sufficient case for itself or not is simply not our problem. Either Islam can convince us that it is true and we will believe, or it will leave us with plenty of reasonable doubt and cause us to disbelieve. Either way, it's not our fault. It's not your fault. You can not threaten the jury for reaching its verdict.
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #31 - August 10, 2013, 08:46 PM
     popcorn A few of us are trying to pressure happymurtad to write a book. Join us.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #32 - August 10, 2013, 09:21 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on August 10, 2013, 08:29 PM
    A fair few yes. I've given my reasons quite plainly for why I believe allah doesn't exist. Yesterday with Seeker I went so far as to call the god of the abrahamic faiths evil. Only in the sense of the character of course.


    I think I read some kind of role play with God lol, it was somewhat entertaining yet insightful.

    Quote from: chris on August 10, 2013, 08:31 PM
    Not a gullible twat, a fallible person who takes the search for the truth seriously, makes some wrong turns along the way and has the humility to acknowledge their mistakes. Those are all noble attributes, so don't beat yourself up. Smiley


    Thanks Chris, still feel like a bit of a knob when you read a post saying " I realised it was nonsense when I was 10" and there's me 21 after completing my degree fascinated by the same thing that a 10 year old disregarded.

    @Livelifeoutloud  I'm reading through the Qur'an again with post-it notes this time, a couple of friends keep asking me to point out all of my problems for them to answer and then they never get back to me, I don't think they expect as many as a I give them. I know what you mean, sometimes I feel totally sure its all a load of hoo haa, then something will make me think otherwise and I never really step out of it, just trudge along waiting for a sign lol. 
    "Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #33 - August 10, 2013, 09:24 PM
    ^


    I'd love to see HM write a book.   As far as I know there isn't a book critical of Islam written in English by a person with HM's salafi credentials.


    If he writes it it will be a best seller in the skeptic/atheist community.    
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #34 - August 10, 2013, 09:26 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on August 10, 2013, 08:42 PM

    It deflects all of its internal weaknesses and instead casts them onto you, the person." If you doubt me, you must be evil," Islam says. "If I don't make sense to you, you must have sinned. If you find contradictions in me, it is because you are too dumb to fully understand."



    I think this ^^^ is quite precisely my issue at the moment, my belief has led me to doubt myself, like a movie when there's two of the same person and you don't know who the evil one is, and your holding the gun, and you don't know who the fuck to shoot.

    I shall jump on the happymurtad book bandwagon, I don't think I've read his intro.
    "Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #35 - August 10, 2013, 09:35 PM
    The role play thing was unexpected, I think it was a spur of the moment that I went along with, also again, Seeker, if you read this, you didn't address any of the points.

    It's just obvious to me. I can list a few things in the quran which prove it isn't divine if you like.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #36 - August 10, 2013, 10:49 PM
    Hey Jibbs, glad to have you here!

    Your story seems like the standard case that most ex-muslims went through during their time of doubts so no, theres nothing wrong with you. My process of leaving Islam took me 2 years, so taking your time to realise what you're comfortable with is fine. Eventually you'll get there.

    And I know the sense and feeling of being around a Muslim community, having Muslims friends who care about you, and it really does bring me some good memories - the times me and my friends used to lose our selfs talking about Islam, Eid celebrations, praying in congregation whilst firm in belief and whatnot. However that suddenly all goes out the window as an ex-muslim when you realise most your friends wouldn't accept your disbelief, or when your own family thinks you're possessed or brainwashed.

    I'd say that you still have the whole world ahead of you at only 24. You haven't even hit the quarter mark yet, and besides, you said you converted to Islam a few years ago, and only you know if your early childhood was a good one. If it wasn't, then my advice would be to attempt to do everything that you want to do right now; write down everything that you want to achieve or missed out on as a teen, and if you put in work then I'm sure you'll have few worries in a couple years time. Smiley I didn't really have a great childhood. My family are religious Muslims. Islam left it's mark on me from the day I was circumcised as a newborn. I was enrolled in a Madrassah at the age of 5, prayed countless prayers, was barely allowed out. There was no encouragement to partake in sports, the humanities, and definitely not music (or the arts in general). No female friends, definitely no girl-friends, no social events, no attending proms or birthday parties. You get the picture.

    I'm 19 now and although I feel like I missed out on a lot, that doesn't mean i'm not itching to go out and experience everything that the world has to offer Smiley

    In conclusion, everything that you mentioned is not just perfectly normal, but entirely expected. Tongue
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #37 - August 10, 2013, 11:17 PM
    Saif Rahman wrote an incredibly insightful book on why he left islam. It began with a letter. His cousin was visiting from Pakistan, they tlked long into the night on some of the doubts he was having. Eventually the cousin said you have to accept all of islam or you're not a muslim. Saif Rahman replied he's not a muslim.

    The cousin asked him to write own all the things that were causing him doubt and he'd take it to a scholar. A number of things were written down, and no word froma  scholar ever came. Eventually he wrote down more and more things until he wrote a book and published it. Oh, the whole challenge, let someone write a chapter like it? Saif Rahman wrote something himself that was good enough people thought it was a sunnah in the quran.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/19390943/The-Islamist-Delusion-From-Islamist-to-Cultural-Muslim-Humanist

    I think you can also get it from Amazon and a few other sites.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #38 - August 10, 2013, 11:20 PM
    This is something happymurtad wrote that, I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong, is an exellect example of why he began to rethink islam.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=23145.msg664397#msg664397
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #39 - August 11, 2013, 11:56 AM
    @ Kingsaab Thanks for the support, yea my childhood was great in terms of freedom and 'living it up' which makes me think so why did I leave it, what was so special that made me choose this life of restriction willingly, then I get all confused again. I overthink.

    I just feel a bit like waiting in limbo is wasting my life, i'm miserable right now, if its just a phase and i'm really a muslim then I can move on a find someone and have a little bit of happiness, and if i'm not Muslim then I can move on and live however I like, at the moment i'm somewhat balancing between the two, years are passing by, and I can just see its something I will regret but I can't seem to be sure of anything... i'm worried i'm gonna start going down the "how do we even know we are real route" lol.

    @Quod Sum Eris Thanks for the recommended reads  thnkyu
    "Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #40 - August 11, 2013, 05:26 PM
    Pretty sure I'm real.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #41 - August 11, 2013, 05:31 PM
    This is me a couple of months ago to a fucking tee. I'll drop you a pm after work
    Don't read all those science books bro, you'll just get more confused.

    That's funny. The more science I read, the less confused I get.
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #42 - August 11, 2013, 06:15 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on August 10, 2013, 11:20 PM
    This is something happymurtad wrote that, I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong, is an exellect example of why he began to rethink islam.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=23145.msg664397#msg664397


    As strange as it may seem, and although this was certainly a significant piece of it, it was not nearly the largest piece.

    I had known about many of the troubling things in Muhammad's history for ages. I had known about his marriage to A'isha, as well as the inherent problems that we would face if we were to reject the "authentic" traditions that state that she was a six year old at the time of her union and nine at the age of  consummation.

    I had known about his massacre of the Jewish tribes. I had known about his permission of sexual slavery and his owning of slaves. I had known about his relationships with Safiyyah, Rayhana and Maria. I had known about the incident with Zaynab and Zaid. I had known about his problems with Hafsa and A'isha.

    But when you consider the man to be the infallible messenger of God--the source of morality--you tend to turn off those signals in your mind that are trying to tell you that something smells funny.

    When you think about the bigger picture, when you get all caught up in the grand message, when your focus is not on the man himself but on the idea he preached, a lot of that nasty stuff just gets swept to the side for a time.

    Once the core message started to crumble, however, everything else just sort of fell right into place.  It was like struggling for so long trying to put together a puzzle of what you thought was a battle ship only to finally realize that it was no ship at all, but rather a light house or a city scene. Once you understand what you are dealing with, all of the pieces that you just couldn't wrap your head around before just suddenly start to make sense.  You wonder how you hadn't seen it all along.

    It's like "Holy shit! That's why Muhammad seems so immoral, because he was a man of his time and not infallible. Crap! That's why the Qur'an seems so geocentric, because it's man made not really from God. Holy fuck! That explains the plagiarized legends and tales. That explains the sun setting in the fetid spring and the stars being used as missiles. That's why there were no miracles. That's why there are contradictions and abrogations. That's why there is gender inequality. That's why it seems barbaric. That's why there are sex slaves. That's why there are 90 foot tall men, magic camels, flying mules, and dudes who survived in whale intestines! It's all made up! Every last bit of it from beginning to end is simply not true! Wow! That explains all the shit that I've struggled to explain for all this time!"

    And once you see it, you can never un-see it.

  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #43 - August 11, 2013, 06:40 PM
    Welcome!  grin12 

    Just be honest with yourself.  Do you support verses like these-

    Quote
    Quran (4:56) - Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise


    If you don't find these to be the true words of a merciful God then congratulations! You are a moral person  Tongue Just take it from there. I've met a few muslims who do believe infidels deserve to burn and wives who are disobedient are allowed to be hit as a last resort.  lipsrsealed 
    "In every religion there is love, yet love has no religion"

    "The intellectual runs away, afraid of drowning; the whole business of love is to drown in the sea." - Rumi
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #44 - August 13, 2013, 09:06 PM
    @happymurtad I wish I could see some kind of light, I want a eureka moment, cos feeling like this is shit, and I'm just hoping I'm not on the verge of a mental breakdown.

    @sara198 I don't support everything Islam says, but I doubt myself a lot, I've spent the last 3 and half years not fully trusting my own judgement cos for example I don't understand some basic aspects of physics but that doesn't make it any less real. I cannot fathom how the pyramids were made but they are there. I'm often told I'm overemotional and my problems with Islam are not based on a logical perspective but an emotional perspective, which according to Muslims doesn't disprove Islam, just because I am uncomfortable with it. Like when I've seen animals getting slaughtered it makes me want to punch the person in the face, doesn't change that biologically our body requires that protein, hell I feel saddened by frickin lions catching zebra's but that's nature. These kind of things make me doubt myself, if my level of "mercy" is not in line with basic nature who am I to give my opinion as superior?
    Like when I read stuff and think that's not merciful, I thought God said he was most merciful, but he also said he was harsh in punishment, it might be a contradiction or He might be all these said attributes in balance so he is the most merciful for someone that is most harsh in punishment or something in that context. But then again He said that he was more merciful than a mother, and I don't think my mother could swing a hook in my face and rip it off or order someone to.
    "Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #45 - August 13, 2013, 11:14 PM
    " Like when I've seen animals getting slaughtered it makes me want to punch the person in the face, doesn't change that biologically our body requires that protein, hell I feel saddened by frickin lions catching zebra's but that's nature. These kind of things make me doubt myself, if my level of "mercy" is not in line with basic nature who am I to give my opinion as superior?"

    There is no line of mercy in basic nature. Conduct differs between different species. As humans we care about the things animals go through, even having laws to protect them from needless suffering. It's why most places will stun an animal before processing it. The people against halal slaughter are those that care about the needless suffering animals go through. I'm very selective about the food I buy for this reason. I won't even buy eggs if I can't afford free range. It's a very human thing, though you could make similar arguments for other species.

    "I don't support everything Islam says, but I doubt myself a lot, I've spent the last 3 and half years not fully trusting my own judgement cos for example I don't understand some basic aspects of physics but that doesn't make it any less real. I cannot fathom how the pyramids were made but they are there."

    It's irrelevant to the point. The pyramids and the laws of physics don't tell you this is how you have to live your life, this is good and this is bad and if you question it you will be tortured forever,

    "I'm often told I'm overemotional and my problems with Islam are not based on a logical perspective but an emotional perspective, which according to Muslims doesn't disprove Islam, just because I am uncomfortable with it."

    Compared to a number of other religions out there, islam is one of the least logical.

    "I thought God said he was most merciful, but he also said he was harsh in punishment, it might be a contradiction or He might be all these said attributes in balance so he is the most merciful for someone that is most harsh in punishment or something in that context. But then again He said that he was more merciful than a mother, and I don't think my mother could swing a hook in my face and rip it off or order someone to"

    You're confused because it doesn't make sense. It's never made sense, that's why people have to rationalise it for themselves and if you ask something they can't answer then they usually will just ignore it. If you are against torture, rape, slavery and genocide then you are morally superior to allah.

    "But then again He said that he was more merciful than a mother, and I don't think my mother could swing a hook in my face and rip it off or order someone to."

    Neither would my mother, because she loves me, isn't crazy and is horrified by the idea of hurting her children.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #46 - August 13, 2013, 11:52 PM
    I think that there are people for whom Islam makes perfect sense. As a result of a multitude of factors, influences, experiences, and sets of acquired knowledge, there really are people who simply can not view the world through any lens other than that of Islam. I’ve met plenty of them. I’m certain that their minds simply can not process a world in which “Laa ilaha illalah Muhammad rasoolullah” does not exist. For those people, Islam works for them as a conclusion.

    For others, like myself, there is simply no way that Islam can ever make sense. Given my own experiences, influences, and sets of acquired knowledge, my mind simply can not process a world in which Islam is actually true.

    The same can be said for virtually any conclusion that a human being can possibly reach.

    It’s not that I can prove that Islam is absolutely impossible. It is that I can never believe that it is true.  That is why I contend that concept of punishments or rewards based on the conclusions that we naturally come to as human beings is completely absurd.

    It reminds me a lot of this video from Hassan:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX3IBHf1oLY&feature=youtube_gdata_player
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #47 - August 14, 2013, 06:21 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on August 10, 2013, 08:46 PM
    popcorn A few of us are trying to pressure happymurtad to write a book. Join us.

     I don't read books, but that's one book I'd love a chance to read.
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #48 - August 14, 2013, 03:45 PM
    Quote
    I don't read books

     015
    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #49 - September 22, 2013, 09:03 PM
    -
    "Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #50 - September 22, 2013, 09:14 PM
     Huh?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #51 - September 22, 2013, 09:22 PM
     mysmilie_977
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #52 - September 22, 2013, 09:25 PM
    Quote from: Jibbs on September 22, 2013, 09:03 PM
    -


     Huh?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #53 - September 22, 2013, 09:27 PM
    She's never made more sense in her life.

    What's the issue Quod?
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #54 - September 22, 2013, 09:29 PM
    Not quite sure what the - means. Wondering if it's a bump, if we're supposed to reply more to the original topic or what.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #55 - September 22, 2013, 09:35 PM
    Jedi you cheeky bugger!
    Lol it was actually a mistake, I wasnt attention seeking I promise.  I was trying to copy my intro for someone,  and somehow posted it on my thread. Didn't know how to delete abd had to replace it with something, blank dash was prcisely what I had to say on the matter.
    "Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #56 - September 22, 2013, 09:37 PM
     Cheesy

    Oh I see, it was an enhanced torture technique!
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #57 - September 22, 2013, 09:44 PM
    Jibby jibby Jibb Jibb! Smiley
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #58 - September 22, 2013, 09:50 PM
    I was hoping it could go unnoticed  cool2 damn you 2!

    For those that are interested in an update of my current status, one is in ignorance is bliss mode, I can't be bothered to think about it, and a pinch of I don't give a shit. It was all stressing me out and depressing me too much, my mind has seeminly reacted by going numb to it all.
    "Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
  • Erm Hello?! Somewhat confused individual here.
     Reply #59 - September 22, 2013, 09:55 PM
    Yeah, I could never be religious. I'd have to do to many mental and emotional acrobatics to convince myself it's not bullshit.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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