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Theme Changer

 Topic: Student with questions

 (Read 16994 times)
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  • Student with questions
     Reply #30 - September 14, 2013, 03:29 PM

    Those links are more about the origins of Islam - so I'm not sure if that's exactly what you're looking for. If you're thinking about buying the Tom Holland book there was a long thread about it that might help you decide:



    I am just looking for opinions outside of those available to me. The course itself was created to counter "Islamaphobia" with direct ties with the Mosques in the local area. From my preceptive this is not strictly an academic course, it is one with an agenda even if it is positive one at first glance. With the USA having a direct influence due to television, most of Canada's television is from the USA, we are bombarded with all the rhetoric you no doubt see highlight by news organizations flashy headlines. Canada is at caught in the middle of two sides of rhetoric and reactionary positions. We have a government that has been leaning towards "Terrorist" rhetoric seen in the USA. There are Muslim groups fighting over implementing Sharia due to our government allowing Judaism and Christian civil courts. Considering Canada's less than positive past and current issues regarding First Nations I wanted to try to find other sources not attached directly to any of these issues or reactionary positions exchanging blows to sway the opinions of the masses.

  • Student with questions
     Reply #31 - September 14, 2013, 03:40 PM

    Japanese religion strikes me as being more about belonging to nature, history, society than anything much else. It certainly ain't religious in terms a monotheist would recognise.


    The same can also be said for Wicca and Native American religions.
  • Student with questions
     Reply #32 - September 14, 2013, 03:44 PM

    I am just looking for opinions outside of those available to me. The course itself was created to counter "Islamaphobia" with direct ties with the Mosques in the local area. From my preceptive this is not strictly an academic course, it is one with an agenda even if it is positive one at first glance. With the USA having a direct influence due to television, most of Canada's television is from the USA, we are bombarded with all the rhetoric you no doubt see highlight by news organizations flashy headlines. Canada is at caught in the middle of two sides of rhetoric and reactionary positions. We have a government that has been leaning towards "Terrorist" rhetoric seen in the USA. There are Muslim groups fighting over implementing Sharia due to our government allowing Judaism and Christian civil courts. Considering Canada's less than positive past and current issues regarding First Nations I wanted to try to find other sources not attached directly to any of these issues or reactionary positions exchanging blows to sway the opinions of the masses.




    My advice to you is to find academic sources. The course is clearly an attempt to proselytize ( it would be a good idea to file a complaint with the proper authority ).

    Doesn't the Canada a have Constitution to promote a secular society?
  • Re: Student with questions
     Reply #33 - September 14, 2013, 05:17 PM

    My advice to you is to find academic sources. The course is clearly an attempt to proselytize ( it would be a good idea to file a complaint with the proper authority ).

    Doesn't the Canada a have Constitution to promote a secular society?


    The issues I face is one of direction, time and resources. The course has become very light now that the summer is over so this limit access to professors directly. Only Turkey as a history course is being covered outside the Islamic Studies program, not Islam or any of the other Muslim Empires for fall. Islam is only linked due to being state religion. However Islam is a secondary topic in course only providing rough summaries. SFU's own library is very limited. The database can be a mess at times making it difficult to research academic work then cross reference if any particular articles, book, etc, is a current view or one of many views. There is also the issue of "Islamcentric" vs Eurocentric views. I am very cautious when it comes radically opposing views due to issues within my own field of study; Biblical min vs max.

     I am passing some of these burdens on to all the folks here. I can ask questions and receive answers in quick order. Also I feel that as most are ex-Muslim I can tap into their own experiences with faith and the loss of it. Just from the responses along with general reading on the site I can see many have done a lot of research on Islam. I'm going to pick your brains for this experience and knowledge.

    I feel that a lot of the lectures only present certain points of views while dismissing other views as those without merit. From my own experience often the reality is somewhere between two extremes. By not acknowledging other points of views along with avoiding any in-depth discussion one can side step these issues. Also by extension external influences such as native cultures that have been assimilated in Muslim cultures are marginalized. From my own limited research I can see influences from Greek, Persian, India, etc. One of the questions that stands out to me is did these cultures have a greater influence on Islam rather than Islam already held similar position of other cultures already. For example the exchange of knowledge along with the secular influence Persia had on education and scholarship.

    Canada is a secular society, it just took a different path than the USA. Canada is still a Christian nation. The early constitution was influenced heavily by the UK. Since the 80s the government has slowly be removing religious aspects with it's influence on the laws and systems implemented over the history of the nation. Canada has had to face issues at the present regarding the unfair treaties with First Nations, religious civil courts, even religious clothing in the RCMP, our federal police force. The whole War on Terror has had an impact on the society we have created. Our citizens have been arrested with out cause by the USA. The government hold views that often become those of hypocrites. These issues are probably never in the news outside of Canada but we have issues that are becoming problems that are polarized in the USA these days.
  • Student with questions
     Reply #34 - September 25, 2013, 04:20 PM

    Quick few questions about the Caliph system. Early Caliphs were elected by a council made up of various tribal leaders, at least this is what I have read. Flash forward a bit to the major dynasties I see a monarchy system that at times is an elected monarchy similar to that of the Holy Roman Empire yet there are examples of being a strictly hereditary monarchy passing rule from father to son or one within the dynasty as seen in Europe. Also there have been civil wars between rival caliphs. The system in practice does not seem to reflect the system on paper, at least to me.

    Is the system an elective monarchy? A popular vote like democracy? Strictly a hereditary or dynastic monarchy?

    Any quick answers or article/book links would be appreciated.
  • Student with questions
     Reply #35 - September 25, 2013, 07:15 PM

    I believe it was an elected monarchy type. The first Caliph's were associates of Muhammed. I know Abu Bakr and Uthman were among the first Caliphs ( their rule didn't last very long because they were killed off ). They were the first Caliph's in Sunni Islam. The Shia's elected Muhammed's son-in-law. The Sunnis and the Shia split over who would be the first Caliph.
  • Student with questions
     Reply #36 - September 25, 2013, 07:40 PM

    Wait, wait...I'll comment more in a second...but before we get too carried away here...Abu Bakr was NOT killed. He died naturally. Abu Bakr was appointed by general consensus of the Muhajiroon, the group of Muslim who had immigrated from Makkah. There was some contention regarding his appointment, but as I said, I’ll comment more later.

    When Abu Bakr died, he appointed Umar as his successor. The transition of power was reportedly fairly smooth.

    Umar was killed while performing prayer in a dark mosque. Sunnis maintain that his assassin was a Zoroastrian. Shi’as, I believe, maintain that he was a believing Muslim acting out of necessity. (Correct me if I’m wrong here, ex-Shia’s. I only know the sunni version.)

    Umar refused dynastic rule, famously remarking that “One Caliph from the house of Khattab was enough." On his death bed, he set up an assembly to choose a successor.

    Uthman was also murdered by a group of dissenters. His death was the catalyst for the sunni/shi’a split, really, as Mu’awiyah and Ali disagreed about how to go about bringing his murderers to justice. Ali was killed…long story…paving te way for the Umayyad dynasty.
  • Student with questions
     Reply #37 - September 26, 2013, 11:54 AM

    So where the dynasties, from Umayyads to Ottomans, not true Caliphs as they favoured hereditary or dynastic successors?
  • Student with questions
     Reply #38 - September 26, 2013, 01:50 PM

    Well, the first problem that you will have is properly defining the term “Caliph.” The Arabic word “Khalifah” literally just means successor and was used most appropriately to refer to Abu Bakr. His title was “Khalifatu Rasulillah,” or Successor of the Messenger of God.

    Umar was the first to use the title “Commander of the Faithful” precisely because he was not a successor to the messenger, but a successor to Abu Bakr. He reportedly said, “How can I be called Successor of the Successor of the Messenger of God? This is too long. Rather, you are the faithful and I am your commander.” It has also been narrated that the suggested title was given by someone present in the court and not by Umar himself. Anyhow.

    The appointment of each of the first four caliphs was different and shows that there is some flexibility when it comes to the issue of succession. Indeed, it is this very flexibility that caused most of the trouble that the early Islamic community faced. The sunni/shia split is the most popular example of this, but there were also splinter groups like the khawarij that emerged from the turmoil as well.

    So, by claiming the title of “caliph” for themselves, the respective rulers and dynasties were seeking to legitimize their respective reigns by harkening back to the Prophet himself.

     Still, there is a sunni narration that indicates that Muhammad said that only the “Rightly Guided Caliphs” were true caliphs.

    Quote
    Allah’s Messenger said: “The Caliphate will remain in my nation for 30 years and then kingship after that”. Saheeh Sunan At-Tirmidhee no. 2226


    I personally am quite skeptical of such a narration, as it seems to have been deliberately fabricated to discredit rulers of the Umayyad and Abbasid dynasties. The fact of the matter is that Muhammad did not seem to come out clearly one way or another on the issue of his succession. The sunnis say that he appointed Abu Bakr to lead the prayers as he fell ill, saying that “Alllah and his prophet refuse anyone but Abu Bakr.” This, Sunnis say, shows that Muhammad intended for Abu Bakr to lead after him. The Shia say that he appointed Ali on his way back to Madinah at Ghadeer Khum. I’ve also read a so called “lost surah” that supposedly gives rights of succession to Ali, though I’m not sure if the Shia actually believe it.

    In any event, early Islamic history was definitely a bloody mess.  The most cynical may be inclined to view the whole thing as a tribal struggle between Bani Hashim and Bani Umayyah.
  • Student with questions
     Reply #39 - September 26, 2013, 03:03 PM


    In any event, early Islamic history was definitely a bloody mess.  The most cynical may be inclined to view the whole thing as a tribal struggle between Bani Hashim and Bani Umayyah.



    Who were (the?) Bani Hashim and Bani Umayyah?
  • Student with questions
     Reply #40 - September 26, 2013, 03:25 PM

    Different branches of the Quraish tribe. Muhammad and his close relatives (Ali, etc.) were from Banu Hashim. Abu Sufyan, Uthman, Mu’awiyah, and their descendents were from Banu Umayyah.  As Muhammad’s main antagonist was Abu Sufyan, Ali’s main antagonist was Mu’awiyah, Hussein’s main antagonist was Yazid, etc, it wouldn't be too far beyond realm of reason to view the whole thing as Arab tribal rivalry interlaced with religion. Not that I do view it that way.
  • Student with questions
     Reply #41 - September 26, 2013, 03:37 PM

    This should help.
  • Student with questions
     Reply #42 - September 26, 2013, 03:45 PM

    This is really interesting.  Afro
  • Student with questions
     Reply #43 - September 26, 2013, 03:51 PM

    happymurtad...sigh 001_wub

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Student with questions
     Reply #44 - September 26, 2013, 03:53 PM


    Quote
    Allah’s Messenger said: “The Caliphate will remain in my nation for 30 years and then kingship after that”. Saheeh Sunan At-Tirmidhee no. 2226



    Sounds like the kind of Hadith that wishful thinkers would pounce on to talk about how miraculous it is that "Muhammad knew this from before".
  • Student with questions
     Reply #45 - September 26, 2013, 05:25 PM

    After Alexander, things fell apart with various squabbles quickly, this is common with succession issues.  What happened with Islam?  How can something so obviously seriously divided go and conquer so much?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Student with questions
     Reply #46 - September 26, 2013, 05:50 PM

    According to Islamic religious texts, Allah created the world and the world belongs to Muslims. The plunder acquired from invading nonmuslim countries was a plus. Guess this somehow united them enough to keep on invading country after country. In other words something did unite them enough to keep on taking over nonmuslim countries.
  • Student with questions
     Reply #47 - September 26, 2013, 06:06 PM

    Well, that is just what all ancient empires did, isn’t it? The Roman Empire did not only rule Rome. They conquered and slaughtered their way through the Mediterranean. The Persian Empire is another example. Hell, even our One Nation Under God, as flimsy as its original claims to the land may be, moved well beyond the original 13 colonies in a manner that was less than peaceful.

    It's silly to claim that religion was the only, or even the prime, motivation for the Arab expansion.

    Did the Islamic Empire weave its Manifest Destiny into its religious narrative? Of course it did. Why would it not? It’s exactly what the Hebrews did, what the Chinese did, what the Mongols did, and what pretty much every ancient empire did.

    Criticizing the Saracens for this is just taking advantage of a low lying fruit, I’m afraid.
  • Student with questions
     Reply #48 - September 26, 2013, 06:08 PM

    Different branches of the Quraish tribe. Muhammad and his close relatives (Ali, etc.) were from Banu Hashim. Abu Sufyan, Uthman, Mu’awiyah, and their descendents were from Banu Umayyah.  As Muhammad’s main antagonist was Abu Sufyan, Ali’s main antagonist was Mu’awiyah, Hussein’s main antagonist was Yazid, etc, it wouldn't be too far beyond realm of reason to view the whole thing as Arab tribal rivalry interlaced with religion. Not that I do view it that way.


    Why do you not view it that way? What evidence do you have to say that the split was due to something else?
  • Student with questions
     Reply #49 - September 26, 2013, 06:11 PM

    Well, just because I wasn’t there so I don’t really know. Reading between the lines, though, that assertion does seem to hold a fair deal of water.
  • Student with questions
     Reply #50 - September 26, 2013, 06:26 PM

    I think there is a problem - the great leader was dead.  Are we arguing a book can take the place of Ghenghis Khan or whoever?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Student with questions
     Reply #51 - September 26, 2013, 06:28 PM

    Well, just because I wasn’t there so I don’t really know. Reading between the lines, though, that assertion does seem to hold a fair deal of water.


    So you can't say for certain but the evidence seems to strongly support that position?
  • Student with questions
     Reply #52 - September 26, 2013, 06:37 PM

    Happymurtad - this info is very very interesting by the way!
  • Student with questions
     Reply #53 - September 26, 2013, 07:19 PM

    I'm surprised more muslims and even some ex-muslims don't look into the history and early development of the religion and the arab empire. The very first thing I discovered, that made me think that 'elders' might be hiding a lot of information from the average muslim, was the story of how Uthman, the third caliph, was dragged by his beard and killed. As I recall, he was even accused of having stores of wine in his basement.

    When I was taught islamic history, it was always shown in a rosy light and always seemed to end with the four caliphs. It does get interesting afterwards though. Especially when the Abbasids use the shias to finally get rid of the Ummayads, killing the whole bloodline and finally settling old tribal rivalries.
  • Student with questions
     Reply #54 - September 26, 2013, 07:35 PM

    So true UberSlave. Everyone has a tendency to romanticise the history of their nation or community. With religion it has to be given a sheen of divine perfection that can make it even more difficult to debunk because you subvert what is considered beyond questioning.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Student with questions
     Reply #55 - September 26, 2013, 07:41 PM

    I'm surprised more muslims and even some ex-muslims don't look into the history and early development of the religion and the arab empire. The very first thing I discovered, that made me think that 'elders' might be hiding a lot of information from the average muslim, was the story of how Uthman, the third caliph, was dragged by his beard and killed. As I recall, he was even accused of having stores of wine in his basement.

    When I was taught islamic history, it was always shown in a rosy light and always seemed to end with the four caliphs. It does get interesting afterwards though. Especially when the Abbasids use the shias to finally get rid of the Ummayads, killing the whole bloodline and finally settling old tribal rivalries.


    I've heard sufism developed because people were against the extravagant lifestyles the Caliphs were displaying.

    There were more then four Caliphs. Sounds like some people were trying to hide or bury unsavory parts of the Islamic empires.

  • Student with questions
     Reply #56 - September 26, 2013, 07:46 PM

    So true UberSlave. Everyone has a tendency to romanticise the history of their nation or community. With religion it has to be given a sheen of divine perfection that can make it even more difficult to debunk because you subvert what is considered beyond questioning.


    But yet there are secular tendencies that exalt the enlightenment as sublime spirit. I mean, hell, Voltaire was a bigot. So was Mark Twain. So was Hegel. The charge especially applies to the liberal paternalistic J.S. Mill who we always refer to for our principles.

    Even Marx couldn't overcome his orientalist ideology (and I say this as someone who loosely operates in a marxist school of philosophy).

    Billy, do you think most people are resolute enough to capitulate to absurdist existentialism? As in, the transcendental signifier that the discourse of the person, ideology or methodology hinges on, ultimately... doesn't actually exist?
  • Re: Student with questions
     Reply #57 - September 26, 2013, 07:53 PM

    I've heard sufism developed because people were against the extravagant lifestyles the Caliphs were displaying.

    There were more then four Caliphs. Sounds like some people were trying to hide or bury unsavory parts of the Islamic empires.




    Sufism does not object to luxury. In fact, it is sublime luxury where luxury devaluates itself. Evidently, you are not aware of the mystical tendencies in all three abrahamic religions.

    And this wasn't some cheap moralisation, it was existentialism/postmodernism presaged.

    Why are you here, spewing asinine, uninformed opinions, anyway? Can't be bothered to read the phenomenology of Spirit?
  • Student with questions
     Reply #58 - September 26, 2013, 07:59 PM

    Japanese religion strikes me as being more about belonging to nature, history, society than anything much else. It certainly ain't religious in terms a monotheist would recognise.

    In its ancient incarnation, yes. That sort of went to pot after Shintoism…
  • Student with questions
     Reply #59 - September 26, 2013, 08:47 PM

    Sufism does not object to luxury. In fact, it is sublime luxury where luxury devaluates itself. Evidently, you are not aware of the mystical tendencies in all three abrahamic religions.

    And this wasn't some cheap moralisation, it was existentialism/postmodernism presaged.

    Why are you here, spewing asinine, uninformed opinions, anyway? Can't be bothered to read the phenomenology of Spirit?


    Actually I am studying Christian mysticism.
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