Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook

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Reply #240 - September 20, 2013, 02:42 AM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on September 19, 2013, 05:25 AM
The bible was obviously not inspired by god any more than the quran was. There never was an Adam and Eve. There was never a garden of Eden with a talking snake. There was no original sin. There was no global flood where an old man and his family built an ark and collected two of EVERY species on the planet. This is just ludicrous nonsense. We KNOW it's nonsense, we've PROVEN it's nonsense. I'm not even saying there is no god, I'm saying the gods of human religions do not exist and we've proven it. Once you prove the holy books are a bunch of bollocks, I mean...what else does it take? It's insanity. To accept as truth fairy tales you know full well could not have possibly taken place is just insane. It really is insanity.

I think that's one of the reasons you didn't agree with my posts on original sin. The fact you don't like how I worded it doesn't lessen the fact that I had valid points.

According to Muslims the Quran was written by God. There is a difference between being written by God and being divinely inspired.

QSE I stated before I obviously failed to explain original sin to you.
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Reply #241 - September 20, 2013, 02:46 AM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on September 19, 2013, 05:01 AM
Wait wait wait wait. Just hang on a tick. The story of the flood came because some peasants back in the bronze age thought a local flood was global, but the bible is still divinely inspired? That's just...what?

Seriously, how can you not see this?

My best answer is:

The Bible was written by human hands.
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Reply #242 - September 20, 2013, 02:55 AM

Quote from: C1981 on September 20, 2013, 02:42 AM
QSE I stated before I obviously failed to explain original sin to you.

I was born into a catholic family and raised in a christian country. I know full well what original sin is.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #243 - September 20, 2013, 03:15 AM

Ok then we'll have to agree to disagree then.
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Reply #244 - September 20, 2013, 03:30 AM

But I just don't understand WHAT is wrong with my description? Humanity sinned to the point that it was passed on to their descendants, the descendants being every human being to walk the Earth. You said the crime was so great it changed their very natures, and their natures were passed on to us. God came to Earth as flesh and blood to sacrifice himself for the sins because every human being is born in sin. If sin is human nature then human nature is evil. A new born baby held in the arms of loving parents, is not innocent. It has no choice but to grow up to be wicked, to be sinful, ala human nature. The reason for this, for every human being having an innate evil, is because of the crimes of someone else. We are condemned by our very natures. Our ancestors thousands and thousands of years ago committed a crime and as a result we carry their crimes. We're born in sin.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #245 - September 20, 2013, 03:40 AM

QSE from what I am getting from your description, is something along the lines of we are to be held responsible for the sins of our fathers. That is what I am getting from your description.

Your description of original sin being human nature is a bit extreme. Original sin does not mean everyone is a murderer. There are various kinds of sins. Some extreme and some very mild such as lying. While original sin is a part of our nature, so is goodness. We humans are very complex creatures.
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Reply #246 - September 20, 2013, 03:51 AM

Actually is was you who first said "What if I told you sin is human nature" or something like that, then seemed to be what you stuck with.

I do want to say I take my hat off to you for saying goodness is also human nature. For too long the churches have been screaming about how everything good we do is god, everything bad we do is us.

And yes, your post is correct, that we are burdened with the sins of our forefathers. That's the whole point of the crucifixion. If we didn't have this burden, the crucifixion need never of happened, some might even say it was meaningless.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #247 - September 20, 2013, 04:42 AM

Why am I reminded of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYXxfF2k-DU

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Reply #248 - September 20, 2013, 10:03 AM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on September 20, 2013, 03:30 AM
But I just don't understand WHAT is wrong with my description? Humanity sinned to the point that it was passed on to their descendants, the descendants being every human being to walk the Earth. You said the crime was so great it changed their very natures, and their natures were passed on to us. God came to Earth as flesh and blood to sacrifice himself for the sins because every human being is born in sin. If sin is human nature then human nature is evil. A new born baby held in the arms of loving parents, is not innocent. It has no choice but to grow up to be wicked, to be sinful, ala human nature. The reason for this, for every human being having an innate evil, is because of the crimes of someone else. We are condemned by our very natures. Our ancestors thousands and thousands of years ago committed a crime and as a result we carry their crimes. We're born in sin.

That summarises quite well how I’ve understood the concept of original sin.
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Reply #249 - September 20, 2013, 12:25 PM

Quote from: C1981 on September 19, 2013, 04:02 PM
Yes I heard of the Gilgamesh epic. The creation story of Genesis is full of symbols. There may not be a literal Adam. Adam may just be a symbol for humanity's perfection and rebellion. The reason Adam is mentioned in Jesus's genealogy is establish Jesus's humanity.

As for your previous points I heard this theory before from Atheists. It is basically saying people to idolize their heroes turn them into semi-divine figures by making up stories about them.

Yet we have no examples of a perfect human, no remains, no point of humans become less than they were. In fact Humans have become healthier and stronger in modern times than any previous era. Humans are taller and healthier now due to stable food supplies, in the West, than previously. The average height for humans was 5'5 for millennia. The evidence is in the clothing and structures we have made over time.

If Adam and Eve are symbols then the bloodline falls apart as previous figures used the bloodline in order to gain authority as prophets. You are just undermining claims of the bible by doing so.

Idolising heroes is not something newly discovered by Atheists. Humanity has been doing this since recorded history. It is not far fetched to consider many religious figures have become idolized, after all you are Christian. Is not Jesus and other prophets idolized centuries later? Be Christ like, or live the "way" of Christ. Take a look at Robinhood, King Arthur, Caesar, Guan Yu, etc. We do this in stories in order to emphasize points within a story. Take Guan Yu for example, he become a guardian god in Taoism due to the actions, fictional and fact. His position in Taoism turns him into a paragon that gives great influence in his role in Romance of the Three Kingdoms
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Reply #250 - September 20, 2013, 12:37 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on September 20, 2013, 03:30 AM
But I just don't understand WHAT is wrong with my description? Humanity sinned to the point that it was passed on to their descendants, the descendants being every human being to walk the Earth. You said the crime was so great it changed their very natures, and their natures were passed on to us. God came to Earth as flesh and blood to sacrifice himself for the sins because every human being is born in sin. If sin is human nature then human nature is evil. A new born baby held in the arms of loving parents, is not innocent. It has no choice but to grow up to be wicked, to be sinful, ala human nature. The reason for this, for every human being having an innate evil, is because of the crimes of someone else. We are condemned by our very natures. Our ancestors thousands and thousands of years ago committed a crime and as a result we carry their crimes. We're born in sin.

Humans are damaged so require salvation. This is a concept that has been drilled into the minds of believers. Something is wrong with you no matter how "good" you are. It is a salesman pitch. Your carpets are dirty. No matter how good you think your vacuum cleaner is it will never clean the carpet. So I am here to offer you the brand new God's vacuum cleaner. It will make you think your carpet is clean but you will not find out if it is actually clean until after your death. Buy now!
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Reply #251 - September 20, 2013, 08:15 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on September 20, 2013, 03:51 AM
Actually is was you who first said "What if I told you sin is human nature" or something like that, then seemed to be what you stuck with.

I do want to say I take my hat off to you for saying goodness is also human nature. For too long the churches have been screaming about how everything good we do is god, everything bad we do is us.

And yes, your post is correct, that we are burdened with the sins of our forefathers. That's the whole point of the crucifixion. If we didn't have this burden, the crucifixion need never of happened, some might even say it was meaningless.

Yeah I think we misunderstood each other.

Humans are complex creatures. We can do good and we can also do bad. How we behave is up to us.
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Reply #252 - September 20, 2013, 08:16 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on September 20, 2013, 04:42 AM
Why am I reminded of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYXxfF2k-DU
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Reply #253 - September 20, 2013, 08:22 PM

Quote from: bogart on September 20, 2013, 12:25 PM
Yet we have no examples of a perfect human, no remains, no point of humans become less than they were. In fact Humans have become healthier and stronger in modern times than any previous era. Humans are taller and healthier now due to stable food supplies, in the West, than previously. The average height for humans was 5'5 for millennia. The evidence is in the clothing and structures we have made over time.

If Adam and Eve are symbols then the bloodline falls apart as previous figures used the bloodline in order to gain authority as prophets. You are just undermining claims of the bible by doing so.

Idolising heroes is not something newly discovered by Atheists. Humanity has been doing this since recorded history. It is not far fetched to consider many religious figures have become idolized, after all you are Christian. Is not Jesus and other prophets idolized centuries later? Be Christ like, or live the "way" of Christ. Take a look at Robinhood, King Arthur, Caesar, Guan Yu, etc. We do this in stories in order to emphasize points within a story. Take Guan Yu for example, he become a guardian god in Taoism due to the actions, fictional and fact. His position in Taoism turns him into a paragon that gives great influence in his role in Romance of the Three Kingdoms

Yes I know we have no remains of a perfect human. Before modern science humans lived a short lifespan. A 30 year old was considered an old person or something like that.

Yes I believe Adam and Eve were symbols. The genealogy was an attempt to connect Jesus with humanity. I don't believe I am undermining the Bible.

I seriously doubt Jesus was idolized centuries later. The Didache proves some Christian beliefs were established early on.
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Reply #254 - September 20, 2013, 08:43 PM

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Before modern science humans lived a short lifespan. A 30 year old was considered an old person or something like that

This is considered a myth...or it is at least a highly contentious issue since statisticians underrepresent other variables.

http://www.livescience.com/10569-human-lifespans-constant-2-000-years.html

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Reply #255 - September 20, 2013, 09:05 PM

Quote from: C1981 on September 20, 2013, 08:16 PM

Helloo C1981., are you C1981 or Christian1981?

for some reason reading your posts I get as confused as reading "yeezevee's" posts .. I wonder whether you have some ulterior motives to confuse the folks?? any ways.. watch these tubes that speaks about "Similarities Between Christianity & Islam"

Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyFZg-PzxIE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8KXTl5-J6A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPcRAru9p5U

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Reply #256 - September 21, 2013, 04:58 AM

Quote from: C1981 on September 20, 2013, 08:15 PM
Yeah I think we misunderstood each other.

Humans are complex creatures. We can do good and we can also do bad. How we behave is up to us.

If there's no saviour, will we fall? Do we need a parent to watch over us or can we be adults who decide for ourselves what is right and wrong and live good, just and moral lives?

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #257 - September 21, 2013, 06:13 AM

Ok, hold it right there. What if I don't want to live a good, just and moral life?

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Reply #258 - September 21, 2013, 06:28 AM

Well I did say can we decide for ourselves.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #259 - September 21, 2013, 06:32 AM

Ok, that's alright then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS02GeKuWQ4

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Reply #260 - September 21, 2013, 06:44 AM

It's so easy when you're evil

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nGtwSnmVsY

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #261 - September 21, 2013, 02:27 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on September 21, 2013, 04:58 AM
If there's no saviour, will we fall? Do we need a parent to watch over us or can we be adults who decide for ourselves what is right and wrong and live good, just and moral lives?

Your first question is a good one. From what I understand before Jesus came only the Jews could enter Heaven. The rest of humanity went to purgatory.

As for the rest of your question, we don't need a religious text to lead to be good. However I do believe God gave us instructions on morality through our conscience.
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Reply #262 - September 21, 2013, 02:28 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on September 21, 2013, 06:13 AM
Ok, hold it right there. What if I don't want to live a good, just and moral life?

I think you know the answer to that question.
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Reply #263 - September 21, 2013, 03:05 PM

Quote from: C1981 on September 20, 2013, 08:22 PM
Yes I know we have no remains of a perfect human. Before modern science humans lived a short lifespan. A 30 year old was considered an old person or something like that.

Yes I believe Adam and Eve were symbols. The genealogy was an attempt to connect Jesus with humanity. I don't believe I am undermining the Bible.

I seriously doubt Jesus was idolized centuries later. The Didache proves some Christian beliefs were established early on.

The religion itself idolizes many figures as paragons or examples to live by. All religion has done is give rational appearing reasons to idolize these figures that may or may not have accomplished anything of worth. Indeed often these figures people idolize, take Moses for example, are guilty of crimes following the verse that praise them. On one hand you have the "good" deed of Moses. Flip forward a few pages and his is slaughtering the people that took him in during his exile.

Establishing Jesus with humanity is redundant as he is supposedly a "God" in Human form. He was a Human. He had the same weaknesses Humans had, which he faced as a challenge during his life. The genealogy is directly tied to prophecy regarding being of part of the House of David. If you wish I can cite verses to support this argument. By dismissing the bloodline for what it is in scripture and prophecy you are indeed undermining the Bible's claims.

Jesus is still being idolized centuries later, Islam and Christianity both do this. Also it doesn't require centuries for one to idolize someone else. It can happen within ones life time, after all he did have followers during his life that later idolized him in their own work.

Of course early Christian beliefs were established early on.... Judaism is the foundation of Christianity. The OT and NT go hand in hand. Without the OT the NT loses creditability as Jesus is/was supposed to be the figure that fulfilled prophecy in the OT. Some Christian beliefs were established before Christ was even born...
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Reply #264 - September 21, 2013, 03:20 PM

Ok cite the verses.

Islam does not idolize Jesus. Muslims believe Jesus was a mere Prophet and nothing else.

Some Christian beliefs were established before Christ was even born? Essenes? Septuagint?
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Reply #265 - September 21, 2013, 04:31 PM

Quote from: C1981
Ok cite the verses.

Here is the two major verse that puts any counter-argument to rest. Matthew 1:1-16 and Luke 3:23-31. OtT and rabbinic views. 1 Kings 11:36, 1 Kings 15:4, 2 Kings 8:19, (2 Sam 7:12-16, Psalm 89:28-38, 1 Chronicles 17:11-14, 1 Chronicles 22:9-10, 1 Chronicles 28:6-7. So clearly this concept of the line of David is not just a view held by Christians but also of past and currently practising Jews.

Quote from: C1981
Islam does not idolize Jesus. Muslims believe Jesus was a mere Prophet and nothing else.

Im sure another member could correct me if I am wrong. I see verses about Jesus, his message if not in the context it has in Christianity. Many figures are viewed in such a way and are examples to follow in a religion A prophet itself gives more authority to one's words and actions. Let take the "Golden Rule" from Jesus. This same rule, although worded differently, was spoken by Confucius centuries earlier. Do you worship him or any of his doctrine due to producing an idea like this? Do you worship any of the other cultures or their philosophy that have developed a similar concept? You only happen to worship the figure that is part of your religion but not other figures or philosophy. Confucius' work created a way of life still followed by many today. Which is worthy of merit? A philosophy that was developed without divine aid that still contains concept now seen in humanism and secularism or one that required a God to let people know treating others poorly was bad mojo? Calling upon the divine itself is used to give authority to one's position that no one can confirm independently, its the argument from authority.

Quote from: C1981
Some Christian beliefs were established before Christ was even born? Essenes? Septuagint?

Look up the whole concept of the Messiah in the OT which Jesus had to fulfil in order to be seen as a Messiah. Without this OT concept ALL of Jesus's claims fall apart. This is probably the foremost foundation of Christian belief. Topple this concept the house of cards falls apart. Disputes over this concept is view there are still Jews. This is why there are 3 concepts with minor/major disagreement in the big 3.

The Septuagint is not even agreed upon by all Christian denominations. So is not a core belief but rather a view on canon. Hence why Protestants have the Apocrypha.

Essenes was hardly a mainstream view held by the Jews, again Essenes being a concept pre-dating Christ. This not an example in favour of your argument but my own.
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Reply #266 - September 21, 2013, 07:23 PM

Quote
Here is the two major verse that puts any counter-argument to rest. Matthew 1:1-16 and Luke 3:23-31. OtT and rabbinic views. 1 Kings 11:36, 1 Kings 15:4, 2 Kings 8:19, (2 Sam 7:12-16, Psalm 89:28-38, 1 Chronicles 17:11-14, 1 Chronicles 22:9-10, 1 Chronicles 28:6-7. So clearly this concept of the line of David is not just a view held by Christians but also of past and currently practising Jews.]Here is the two major verse that puts any counter-argument to rest. Matthew 1:1-16 and Luke 3:23-31. OtT and rabbinic views. 1 Kings 11:36, 1 Kings 15:4, 2 Kings 8:19, (2 Sam 7:12-16, Psalm 89:28-38, 1 Chronicles 17:11-14, 1 Chronicles 22:9-10, 1 Chronicles 28:6-7. So clearly this concept of the line of David is not just a view held by Christians but also of past and currently practising Jews.

Yes I know Jews believe the Messiah had to be from the line of David.

Quote
Im sure another member could correct me if I am wrong. I see verses about Jesus, his message if not in the context it has in Christianity. Many figures are viewed in such a way and are examples to follow in a religion A prophet itself gives more authority to one's words and actions. Let take the "Golden Rule" from Jesus. This same rule, although worded differently, was spoken by Confucius centuries earlier. Do you worship him or any of his doctrine due to producing an idea like this? Do you worship any of the other cultures or their philosophy that have developed a similar concept? You only happen to worship the figure that is part of your religion but not other figures or philosophy. Confucius' work created a way of life still followed by many today. Which is worthy of merit? A philosophy that was developed without divine aid that still contains concept now seen in humanism and secularism or one that required a God to let people know treating others poorly was bad mojo? Calling upon the divine itself is used to give authority to one's position that no one can confirm independently, its the argument from authority

No I wouldn't worship Confucius if he said something similar.

Morality doesn't come from religion. We don't need a religion to be moral. God already gave us instructions on how to live a moral life through our conscience.

Quote
Look up the whole concept of the Messiah in the OT which Jesus had to fulfil in order to be seen as a Messiah. Without this OT concept ALL of Jesus's claims fall apart. This is probably the foremost foundation of Christian belief. Topple this concept the house of cards falls apart. Disputes over this concept is view there are still Jews. This is why there are 3 concepts with minor/major disagreement in the big 3.

Yes I know about the concept of the Messiah in the OT and what were the requirements for someone to be considered the Messiah.
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Reply #267 - September 21, 2013, 08:07 PM

Quote from: C1981

Yes I know Jews believe the Messiah had to be from the line of David.

It wasn't just Jews, it a core concept of Christianity. Two of those verses are from the Gospels. This lays to rest the idea that bloodlines were important in both religions. The Bloodline is part of the prophecies Jesus uses to validate his claims of being the messiah.

Quote from: C1981

Morality doesn't come from religion. We don't need a religion to be moral. God already gave us instructions on how to live a moral life through our conscience.

Then religion has no practical use or purpose. Any purpose or way of life a person can discover using their own intelligence and conscience. If I can life a good life without Jesus I have no need to pay lip service to religion. Also I can easily shift from a theist concept to a deist one that everything important is already part of human natural. If we can devise our own morality then direct intervention of a God is not required.

Your statement contradicts the numerous laws passed directly to various prophets and even Jesus's own words. It also highlights flawed thinking as morality has never been agreed upon by humanity wholesale. What was morale centuries ago is not now. Also numerous laws and morales God set out in the OT have been dismissed as archaic in the modern world. Why communicate laws and morales that only apply in a short time frame. Why not pass on concepts that would hold for all time rather than for Moses' Judaism only.

How do you explain different views of morality held by different cultures. Are your views held the only one correct? Are the other views in error? Is your own view wrong? Does humanity only agree over certain morales such as murder but not other views such as marriage.

Hypothetical situation. In the future overpopulation is a threat to our species and planet. Is it morally right to enforce population control in order to avoid global famine or support freedom of choice? My own view is the greater good overrides all person choice in this situation. Is my view morale? Are the views of freedom of choice morale? The point of this situation is to show that morales become shades of grey rather than the black and white views proposed by religions.

Quote from: C1981

Yes I know about the concept of the Messiah in the OT and what were the requirements for someone to be considered the Messiah.

Why ask for Christian beliefs and concepts that pre-date Christ if you are familiar with said concepts? Your answer doesn't make sense in light of the question in the first place.
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Reply #268 - September 21, 2013, 09:21 PM

Quote
It wasn't just Jews, it a core concept of Christianity. Two of those verses are from the Gospels. This lays to rest the idea that bloodlines were important in both religions. The Bloodline is part of the prophecies Jesus uses to validate his claims of being the messiah

Yes I know the bloodlines are needed as a requirement for the Messiah.

Quote
Then religion has no practical use or purpose. Any purpose or way of life a person can discover using their own intelligence and conscience. If I can life a good life without Jesus I have no need to pay lip service to religion. Also I can easily shift from a theist concept to a deist one that everything important is already part of human natural. If we can devise our own morality then direct intervention of a God is not required.

Religion is humanity's attempt to reach God. Christianity is God's attempt to reach down to humanity. That is why there are various religions in the world. Yes you can live a good life without religion.

Yes one can live a good life without believing in God.

The purpose of Christianity is to bring reconciliation between God and humanity through Jesus.

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Your statement contradicts the numerous laws passed directly to various prophets and even Jesus's own words. It also highlights flawed thinking as morality has never been agreed upon by humanity wholesale. What was morale centuries ago is not now. Also numerous laws and morales God set out in the OT have been dismissed as archaic in the modern world. Why communicate laws and morales that only apply in a short time frame. Why not pass on concepts that would hold for all time rather than for Moses' Judaism only.

Gee I don't remember Jesus giving us laws. Which laws of the prophets are you referring to?

Morality has never been agreed upon by humanity as a wholesale? If I say murder is wrong will you agree or disagree with me?

Which numerous laws and morales God set out in the OT are archaic?

Bogard there is a reason why the OT is referred to as the old covenant.

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How do you explain different views of morality held by different cultures. Are your views held the only one correct? Are the other views in error? Is your own view wrong? Does humanity only agree over certain morales such as murder but not other views such as marriage

Give me an example.

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Hypothetical situation. In the future overpopulation is a threat to our species and planet. Is it morally right to enforce population control in order to avoid global famine or support freedom of choice? My own view is the greater good overrides all person choice in this situation. Is my view morale? Are the views of freedom of choice morale? The point of this situation is to show that morales become shades of grey rather than the black and white views proposed by religions.

It is not morally right to enforce population control because it will give the government control over our bodies and take away our freedom. There are ways to avoid disaster without the government taking control of our lives.

By the way I don't believe in the overpopulation myth.

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Why ask for Christian beliefs and concepts that pre-date Christ if you are familiar with said concepts? Your answer doesn't make sense in light of the question in the first place.

Because I am trying to figure out what you are trying to prove.
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Reply #269 - September 22, 2013, 02:41 AM

Quote from: C1981 on September 21, 2013, 09:21 PM

Religion is humanity's attempt to reach God. Christianity is God's attempt to reach down to humanity. That is why there are various religions in the world. Yes you can live a good life without religion.

Yes one can live a good life without believing in God.

The purpose of Christianity is to bring reconciliation between God and humanity through Jesus.

Most religions make the same claims. Nothing special to me that sets Christianity apart from any other.

Quote from: C1981 on September 21, 2013, 09:21 PM

Gee I don't remember Jesus giving us laws. Which laws of the prophets are you referring to?

The Law of Moses ring a bell, the 10 commandments, Divine law?

Quote from: C1981 on September 21, 2013, 09:21 PM

Morality has never been agreed upon by humanity as a wholesale? If I say murder is wrong will you agree or disagree with me?

Thou shalt not kill. If you look into the root words used in Hebrew text there is justified killing within the context of the word. One is allowed to kill people that turn to idolatry, blasphemy while also allowing soldier to commit murder in times of war. Not combat but killing of prisoners and family members of captives aka what we consider war crimes now.

Quote from: C1981 on September 21, 2013, 09:21 PM

Which numerous laws and morales God set out in the OT are archaic?

Laws of Moses. Stoning for adultery for example

Quote from: C1981 on September 21, 2013, 09:21 PM

Bogard there is a reason why the OT is referred to as the old covenant.

Same God is it not?

Quote from: C1981 on September 21, 2013, 09:21 PM

It is not morally right to enforce population control because it will give the government control over our bodies and take away our freedom. There are ways to avoid disaster without the government taking control of our lives.

That line of though has worked out so well in the modern world hasnt it.... What if people refuse to change their ways? Does the freedom of a few outweigh any impact they may have on the majority by their choices. At times government have to step in despite what people have chosen to do. Civil Rights for example.

Quote from: C1981 on September 21, 2013, 09:21 PM

By the way I don't believe in the overpopulation myth.

To bad it is already happening in many nations across the planet. Especially nations that suffer from famine, something the West hasn't faced in decades.

Quote from: C1981 on September 21, 2013, 09:21 PM

Because I am trying to figure out what you are trying to prove.

Prove? All I have really done is lay out arguments that show some of the views you hold regarding key concepts factually are in error, such as the bloodlines. As I first stated with my bloodline argument is that you accept certain claims based on bloodlines when it supports a view you hold but ignore the same bloodline when it is about Adam & Eve along with their link to other figures in the Bible.
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