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 Topic: Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook

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  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #150 - September 19, 2013, 04:23 AM
     Afro
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #151 - September 19, 2013, 04:25 AM
    Good. Then you wont mind addressing the point. Go for it. Afro
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #152 - September 19, 2013, 04:26 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on September 19, 2013, 04:11 AM
    if their sins are not my sins then I'm not born with original sin. I can't be because it's not my sin. I really don't understand your thinking. How am I carrying the sin of another's actions if I'm not responsible for their actions? Am I or am I not held accountable for the actions of someone who was around thousands and thousands and thousand of years before I was even born? You say no but then say I carry their sin.


    QSE you obviously don't get the concept of original sin and obviously I failed to explain it to you.

    The best way I can explain it, is original sin is passed on to us.
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #153 - September 19, 2013, 04:30 AM
    Sort of like the police come knocking on my door and throw me in a cell for murder because they found out 600 years ago my ancestor killed someone? Hauled into the dock, judge sentences me to life for murder, I protest that I didn't do anything and the judge replies "The sin is passed on to you"?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #154 - September 19, 2013, 04:31 AM
    That is basically the concept of original sin is it not?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #155 - September 19, 2013, 04:33 AM
    Quote from: C1981 on September 18, 2013, 08:54 PM
    Bogart is there any evidence Achilles or anyone in the Greek myths did exist?


    I will first respond with tossing the question right back at you. Is there any evidence Moses, Noah, Abrahman, etc are real? All we have is stories created centuries after the fact with no evidence outside these stories. There is of course no evidence suggesting any of the Illiad's figures were real people as well. I am just playing devil's advocate in favour of a dead religion in order to show how those that are religious grasps at the thinnest of straws in order to keep their faith. Figures like Achilles, Agamemnon, etc could have been real people that have had mythological stories and attributes attached to them later on. As with Jesus, he could of been real but later had his own mythology attached to him by his followers. For a Greek in the post Trojan War era these figures could have been 100% real along with their mythos just as Jesus' mythos is for Christians. Another example is that of Muslim views of Jesus, they only accept certain parts of the Christian mythos. Trojan mythos was seen as real to the Romans as well.

    What I am getting at is you, as a Christian, need to accept certain concepts that has no evidence. These concepts are just as much myth as my Greek example. However you have chosen to accept certain myths as real as it is part of your faith while you are under no pressure to do the same with any myth that falls outside your faith. It is a double standard
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #156 - September 19, 2013, 04:34 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on September 19, 2013, 04:30 AM
    Sort of like the police come knocking on my door and throw me in a cell for murder because they found out 600 years ago my ancestor killed someone? Hauled into the dock, judge sentences me to life for murder, I protest that I didn't do anything and the judge replies "The sin is passed on to you"?


    No

    It is basically their nature was passed on to us.
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #157 - September 19, 2013, 04:36 AM
    Quote from: C1981 on September 19, 2013, 04:34 AM
    No

    It is basically their nature was passed on to us.

    But that's an evasion, because we both know perfectly well that in the Bible your God specifically curses Adam and Eve's descendants and condemns them to all sorts of nasty crap, specifically as punishment for A&E's actions.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #158 - September 19, 2013, 04:39 AM
    Quote from: C1981 on September 19, 2013, 04:34 AM
    No

    It is basically their nature was passed on to us.


    So then it comes back to this?

    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on September 19, 2013, 02:17 AM
    I did read it, it doesn't change my point. We were created sick and commanded to be well. We are condemned by our very natures. You're not a good person, you're wicked. You're born in sin. Can you really not see how that teaching is perverse?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #159 - September 19, 2013, 04:43 AM
    Also, if they were originally created perfect, would it not be more just to pass that nature on to their descendants?

    (Meaning your God could have chosen that option)
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #160 - September 19, 2013, 04:47 AM
    Quote from: bogart on September 19, 2013, 04:33 AM
    I will first respond with tossing the question right back at you. Is there any evidence Moses, Noah, Abrahman, etc are real? All we have is stories created centuries after the fact with no evidence outside these stories. There is of course no evidence suggesting any of the Illiad's figures were real people as well. I am just playing devil's advocate in favour of a dead religion in order to show how those that are religious grasps at the thinnest of straws in order to keep their faith. Figures like Achilles, Agamemnon, etc could have been real people that have had mythological stories and attributes attached to them later on. As with Jesus, he could of been real but later had his own mythology attached to him by his followers. For a Greek in the post Trojan War era these figures could have been 100% real along with their mythos just as Jesus' mythos is for Christians. Another example is that of Muslim views of Jesus, they only accept certain parts of the Christian mythos. Trojan mythos was seen as real to the Romans as well.

    What I am getting at is you, as a Christian, need to accept certain concepts that has no evidence. These concepts are just as much myth as my Greek example. However you have chosen to accept certain myths as real as it is part of your faith while you are under no pressure to do the same with any myth that falls outside your faith. It is a double standard


    There is no evidence Moses, Abraham, and Noah were real. By the way I am skeptical of the literal flood story.
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #161 - September 19, 2013, 04:49 AM
    The flood never happened. If you'd like proof, I can provide it.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #162 - September 19, 2013, 04:50 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on September 19, 2013, 04:36 AM
    But that's an evasion, because we both know perfectly well that in the Bible your God specifically curses Adam and Eve's descendants and condemns them to all sorts of nasty crap, specifically as punishment for A&E's actions.


    The Bible supports my assertion.
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #163 - September 19, 2013, 04:51 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on September 19, 2013, 04:49 AM
    The flood never happened. If you'd like proof, I can provide it.


    There is a possibility it was a local flood and since the people of the time thought the Middle East was the entire world, they thought it was covered.
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #164 - September 19, 2013, 04:54 AM
    Which just goes to show the bible didn't come from god, just human beings.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #165 - September 19, 2013, 04:55 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on September 19, 2013, 04:43 AM
    Also, if they were originally created perfect, would it not be more just to pass that nature on to their descendants?

    (Meaning your God could have chosen that option)


    1. They were cut off from God

    2. We learn our behavior from our parents.
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #166 - September 19, 2013, 04:55 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on September 19, 2013, 04:54 AM
    Which just goes to show the bible didn't come from god, just human beings.


    The Bible was divinely inspired and written by human hands.
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #167 - September 19, 2013, 04:56 AM
    Quote from: C1981 on September 19, 2013, 04:50 AM
    The Bible supports my assertion.

    No, it doesn't.

    Quote
    16 To the woman he said,

    “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
        with painful labor you will give birth to children.
    Your desire will be for your husband,
        and he will rule over you.”

    17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

    “Cursed is the ground because of you;
        through painful toil you will eat food from it
        all the days of your life.
    18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
        and you will eat the plants of the field.
    19 By the sweat of your brow
        you will eat your food
    until you return to the ground,
        since from it you were taken;
    for dust you are
        and to dust you will return.”

    This is what is passed on to their descendants, and it it blatantly punishment for their actions.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #168 - September 19, 2013, 04:58 AM
    Quote from: C1981 on September 19, 2013, 04:55 AM
    1. They were cut off from God

    2. We learn our behavior from our parents.

    Irrelevant, because your God had the power to choose another option. He is the omnipotent one, right?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #169 - September 19, 2013, 05:01 AM
    Wait wait wait wait. Just hang on a tick. The story of the flood came because some peasants back in the bronze age thought a local flood was global, but the bible is still divinely inspired? That's just...what? banghead

    Seriously, how can you not see this?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #170 - September 19, 2013, 05:03 AM
    Doesn't want to see it. Sky would fall on head. Nasty headache would ensue. Better to avoid. Smiley
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #171 - September 19, 2013, 05:08 AM
    Quote from: C1981 on September 18, 2013, 02:13 AM
    But other then that it would take faith to believe in Jesus's divinity.


    Faith, by definition, does not require evidence. Throughout this entire conversation, you still haven't answered the main question :  Why does God punish/reward someone based upon a factor that doesn't require evidence?
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #172 - September 19, 2013, 05:11 AM
    Also..
    "Let me put it this way: God does not demand we worship him. If he did they everyone would be worshipping him like mindless drones."

    What evidence do you have to claim that God does not demand worship? Is it also faith? Your post is a logical fallacy anyways. Demanding does not equal submission.
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #173 - September 19, 2013, 05:13 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on September 19, 2013, 05:01 AM
    Wait wait wait wait. Just hang on a tick. The story of the flood came because some peasants back in the bronze age thought a local flood was global, but the bible is still divinely inspired? That's just...what? banghead

    Seriously, how can you not see this?

    It's really quite simple. The Bible is divinely inspired. This means all the good bits that make sense were God's bits. All the bad bits, or the bits that don't make sense, were someone else's fuckups.

    How do we know this? Because God doesn't make fuckups, of course. Duh. Couldn't someone have done some of the good bits off their own bat? No way. Good stuff comes from God. Humans are teh crap, mate. So, any good bits must be God's bits.

    So what about the bad bits? Well, they're not God's problem. You have to blame someone else for those. But God created the fuckers what made teh fuckups, right? And he knew what he was doing, right? So he must be responsible, yes?

    No. No no no no no. God is totally not responsible for any of teh fuckups made by critters what he deliberately made all fucked up. He can punish them for being fucked up though. That's totally cool. parrot

    Also, since we obviously have to use our own fallible and deliberately fucked up judgement to decide which bits are good bits and which bits aren't, this totally means that any bits we currently think are bad bits can't be God's bits. God is really really nice n stuff. Really.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #174 - September 19, 2013, 05:25 AM
    The bible was obviously not inspired by god any more than the quran was. There never was an Adam and Eve. There was never a garden of Eden with a talking snake. There was no original sin. There was no global flood where an old man and his family built an ark and collected two of EVERY species on the planet. This is just ludicrous nonsense. We KNOW it's nonsense, we've PROVEN it's nonsense. I'm not even saying there is no god, I'm saying the gods of human religions do not exist and we've proven it. Once you prove the holy books are a bunch of bollocks, I mean...what else does it take? It's insanity. To accept as truth fairy tales you know full well could not have possibly taken place is just insane. It really is insanity.

    I think that's one of the reasons you didn't agree with my posts on original sin. The fact you don't like how I worded it doesn't lessen the fact that I had valid points.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #175 - September 19, 2013, 05:32 AM
    You're largely criticising the literalist view there, which is not regarded as mainstream except in fundy Baptist circles, etc. To deal with the "average Christian" you have to take into account that they believe a lot of the bible is allegory.

    The reason they believe this is because they are uncomfortably aware that, if taken literally, the Bible is a load of bollocks. Since they are desperate to salvage anything at all, they take refuge in calling it allegorical, then try to ascribe deep meaning to it.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #176 - September 19, 2013, 05:34 AM
    Quote from: C1981 on September 19, 2013, 04:47 AM
    There is no evidence Moses, Abraham, and Noah were real. By the way I am skeptical of the literal flood story.


    I am skeptical due to the fact that there is an older story with evidence from another culture, the Epic of Gilgamesh.

    You really evade my points and refuse to address them. I understand you do not take everything literal. Let me just use another example to show how by turning various stories in myth you undermine the authority and claims of many figures within the Bible. Tthe Bible use bloodlines to establish the authority of prophets and kings. If certain figures within this bloodline are myth than any authority based on bloodlines crumbles. The Bible uses bloodlines to establish claims of Jesus. It also uses Adam as if a real person to show that Adam was the first perfect human that disobeyed God. His disobedience and punishment is passed on to humanity. Jesus was the last Adam. A perfect human that obeyed God. By obeying God humanity benefited from Jesus' obedience. This line of thought suggests that Adam wasn't just a concept to to teach a lesson, he was a real person that had an effect on all of humanity just as Jesus did. Adam's story flows into Jesus's own suggesting that people of the time believed Adam and his story were historic fact.

    All of the big 3 use bloodlines to establish authority for various figures. Im sure another member could provide details for Islam's point of view regarding bloodlines and the authority gained by it.

  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #177 - September 19, 2013, 05:44 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on September 19, 2013, 05:32 AM
    You're largely criticising the literalist view there, which is not regarded as mainstream except in fundy Baptist circles, etc. To deal with the "average Christian" you have to take into account that they believe a lot of the bible is allegory.


    But see, that's what gets me. The idea of it not supposed to be taken literally. Then what's the point in any of it? What's the point in having a story of a talking snake in a magic garden if that's all nonsense? What's the point in talking about original sin if there was no original sin? Why try to explain childbirth by saying we're punishing you because of what Eve did, that originally it was painless? If it's to be taken literally, then you know it's proven false. If it's to be taken metaphorically, then what's the fucking point? What metaphor is Noah's ark supposed to be? What's up with the rest of the nonsense? What moral lesion are we supposed to receive on the not really actually true story of Lot sending his own children to be raped brutally by a rabid mob? I mean, what? What is the lesson? What is the point of these perverse fairy tales?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #178 - September 19, 2013, 05:46 AM
    This is a retarded debate.
    fuck you
  • Born Again Christian Trying To Tell Me I am Going To Hell On Facebook
     Reply #179 - September 19, 2013, 05:51 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on September 19, 2013, 05:32 AM
    You're largely criticising the literalist view there, which is not regarded as mainstream except in fundy Baptist circles, etc. To deal with the "average Christian" you have to take into account that they believe a lot of the bible is allegory.

    The reason they believe this is because they are uncomfortably aware that, if taken literally, the Bible is a load of bollocks. Since they are desperate to salvage anything at all, they take refuge in calling it allegorical, then try to ascribe deep meaning to it.


    There are certain concepts that can require one to take literal when viewed in the context of the overall story. By claiming certain parts of the bible are allegory such claims undermine the claims of the Bible wholesale. Many claims of allegory are only within a limited context at hand, not the implications it may have on other parts of the Bible. The bloodline is an example of such a case. Jesus to David, David to Aaron, Aaron/Moses as siblings, Moses to Isaac, Isaac(Israel) to Jacob/Abraham, Abraham to Noah, Noah to Adam. Many break down bloodlines into such ordering as I have just done yet do not look at the structure completely. By dismissing one of the earlier bloodlines you undermine the authority of the latter.

    It is hard to address the various versions of Christian doctrine and dogma unless one comes out completely with their version beforehand. This is why I take core concepts that require to be viewed as literal in one instance while being dismissed in another case
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