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 Topic: Where did Muhammad get his theology about Crucifixion?

 (Read 4106 times)
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  • Where did Muhammad get his theology about Crucifixion?
     OP - September 27, 2013, 12:46 PM

    I was reding some stuff about crucifixion, ascending to heaven, spiritual resurrection and physical resurrection. Interesting stuff, so I started thining about Muhammad's view of Isa's last moments on earth. Where did he get the ideas from, since he most likely wasn't very well knowing in Christian theology or scriptures. I have understood, that Muhammad knew more about Jewish stuff.

    There were unorthodox groups, that had parts of Islamic view of Isa's life, but had also big differences.

    Docetism:
    Jesus was not crucified, since he was God and couldn't have physical body.

    Ebionites:
    Jesus was Messiah, who was crucified and majority did not believe in virgin birth of Jesus. They kept circumcision, Košer and other Jewish rituals.
    Were against pictures. Waraqah ibn Nawfal was Ebionite.

    Nazarenes:
    Jesus was born of a virgin, but was just a prophet and Messiah and not God himself. Jesus was crucified. Nazarenes kept the law, but faith was more important than just following the Law.

    Essenes: (harder to find material, so I might give misinformation)
    Jesus born from a virgin, but some say was not crucified, some say was. Some say was Messiah, some say was just a wise man.
    Essenes were vegetarians, rejected SACRIFICE of animals and some said that Jesus was a sacrifice made by God, some said Jesus voluntarily died to end ANIMAL SACRIFICES and some said sacrifices are done by Satan to deceive people into violence. Essenes had very different views and many totally different called themselves Essenes, but had major disagreements.


    So this being said, where did Muhammad of Islam get his idea of Isa? If he got it from Waraqah, who very likely gave him much knownledge about Isa, but Waraqah probably believed in crucifixion and Muhammad did not. Also Waraqah's religion taught against virgin birth. So where did Muhammad include his view on the virgin birth and against crucifixion?

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Where did Muhammad get his theology about Crucifixion?
     Reply #1 - September 27, 2013, 01:14 PM

    "since he most likely wasn't very well knowing in Christian theology or scriptures. "

    Where did you formulate this assumption from?
  • Where did Muhammad get his theology about Crucifixion?
     Reply #2 - September 27, 2013, 02:23 PM

    I have read, that Muhammad had more relations with Jews and that Meccans had more folklore and traditions borrowed from Jews than from Christians. I have also read that there were much less Christians in Mecca, so I thought Muhammad had very little regular contact with Christians and that Waraqah was one of the few.
    I could be wrong tho'.

    So where and how you think Muhammad got his theology about Isa, since that view is not borrowed from any known Christian group (that he was man, Messiah, prophet, born of a virgin, kept the law and was not crucified). Do you think he got stuff from many sources and then made his Islamic version?
    If he did that then why did he for example choose that Isa was not crucified?

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Where did Muhammad get his theology about Crucifixion?
     Reply #3 - September 27, 2013, 02:29 PM

    I thought he used a xian primer, a simplified version of the stories that was in circulation.

    The other main point is that then things were not fixed and formalised as they are now, although there were strong attempts in some places to impose theologies.

    The reality is a wonderful chaotic marketplace of ideas, bits and pieces from various travellers and traders.  Tom Holland in Shadow of the Sword describes this - remember the influences included several christianities, several Judaisms, worship of the true gods, Zarathustra.....

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Where did Muhammad get his theology about Crucifixion?
     Reply #4 - September 27, 2013, 03:37 PM

    Siunaa

    Firstly, the Essenes were an emphatically Jewish sect - they don't have a view on Jesus, and I'm not aware of any of the Qumranic texts having any Christian content ( although the texts are important in the historical reconstruction of the era and in helping to understand the range of Jewish religious views extant in first century Palestine and their impact and influence on some early Christian viewpoints ).

    Secondly, in its first few centuries, Christianity is exceptionally promiscuous in its range of views, theologies, debates and practises. This remains the case after the various councils of the fourth and fifth centuries - especially in areas outside the control of the Byzantine empire, where an established church allied to the state emerges.

    Thirdly, an Arabian trader working from Yemen in the South to Damascus in the North in the 6th-7th centuries would have encountered a bewildering variety of Christianities - broadly orthodox Greek rite, Nestorians, Docetists, Manicheans, Ethiopians, Gnostics etc.

    Fourthly, disabuse yourself of the notion that there is a fixed "thing" called the bible - there are gobs of non-canonical texts/narratives/traditions that were popular, and still survive today. The authors/compilers of the Quran were not necessarily familiar with the synoptic gospels, or, for that matter, the "official" Jewish or Christian selection of books that were canonised. Cast the net wider into the "Apocrypha" and the "Pseudepigrepha" of both the OT and the NT.
  • Where did Muhammad get his theology about Crucifixion?
     Reply #5 - September 28, 2013, 01:48 PM

    I found littlebit humorous part from Qur'ân 19:29-34, words of Issa as a child:
    "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"

    What is the explanation from scholars to these verses that seem to contradict crucifiction (that crucifixion did not happen).

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Where did Muhammad get his theology about Crucifixion?
     Reply #6 - September 28, 2013, 02:23 PM

    I found little bit humorous part from Qur'ân 19:29-34, words of Issa as a child:
    "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"

    What is the explanation from scholars to these verses that seem to contradict crucifiction (that crucifixion did not happen).

    what is so  humorous  about those verses Siunaa Maailmaa?   Well let us read those verses along with some 5 verses up and down to that number 19:29-34,


    Quote

    25:   وَهُزِّي إِلَيْكِ بِجِذْعِ النَّخْلَةِ تُسَاقِطْ عَلَيْكِ رُطَبًا جَنِيًّا
     And shake towards you the trunk of the palmtree, it will drop on you fresh ripe dates:

    26     فَكُلِي وَاشْرَبِي وَقَرِّي عَيْنًا ۖ فَإِمَّا تَرَيِنَّ مِنَ الْبَشَرِ أَحَدًا فَقُولِي إِنِّي نَذَرْتُ لِلرَّحْمَـٰنِ صَوْمًا فَلَنْ أُكَلِّمَ الْيَوْمَ إِنسِيًّا
       So eat and drink and refresh the eye. Then if you see any mortal, say: Surely I have vowed a fast to the Beneficent Allah, so I shall not speak to any man today.

    27     فَأَتَتْ بِهِ قَوْمَهَا تَحْمِلُهُ ۖ قَالُوا يَا مَرْيَمُ لَقَدْ جِئْتِ شَيْئًا فَرِيًّا
        And she came to her people with him, carrying him (with her). They said: O Marium! surely you have done a strange thing.

    28     يَا أُخْتَ هَارُونَ مَا كَانَ أَبُوكِ امْرَأَ سَوْءٍ وَمَا كَانَتْ أُمُّكِ بَغِيًّا
        O sister of Haroun! your father was not a bad man, nor, was your mother an unchaste woman.

    29     فَأَشَارَتْ إِلَيْهِ ۖ قَالُوا كَيْفَ نُكَلِّمُ مَن كَانَ فِي الْمَهْدِ صَبِيًّا
        But she pointed to him. They said: How should we speak to one who was a child in the cradle?

    30     قَالَ إِنِّي عَبْدُ اللَّهِ آتَانِيَ الْكِتَابَ وَجَعَلَنِي نَبِيًّا
       He said: Surely I am a servant of Allah; He has given me the Book and made me a prophet;

    31     وَجَعَلَنِي مُبَارَكًا أَيْنَ مَا كُنتُ وَأَوْصَانِي بِالصَّلَاةِ وَالزَّكَاةِ مَا دُمْتُ حَيًّا
        And He has made me blessed wherever I may be, and He has enjoined on me prayer and poor-rate so long as I live;

    32     وَبَرًّا بِوَالِدَتِي وَلَمْ يَجْعَلْنِي جَبَّارًا شَقِيًّا
        And dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me insolent, unblessed;

    33     وَالسَّلَامُ عَلَيَّ يَوْمَ وُلِدتُّ وَيَوْمَ أَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَ أُبْعَثُ حَيًّا
         And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life.

    34     ذَ‌ٰلِكَ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ ۚ قَوْلَ الْحَقِّ الَّذِي فِيهِ يَمْتَرُونَ
        Such is Isa, son of Marium; (this is) the saying of truth about which they dispute.


    First of all we should note  that this alleged surah was revealed when alleged Prophet was in Makkah  and that means it is with in 1st five years of starting his Islamic mission .   That surak is filled with Christian fables and they are nothing but Christian stories that were around. A careful reading of whole Quran reveals big  HOLES in such stories  and where do these  HOLES come from?  Quran writers have  used several Christian sources of that time to tell  these  fables of  Christians living in and  around Arabia of  that time.  In various verses of Qur'an  we read such stories that are similar to the stories we see in OT and NT. Often People and their  names are repeated and plenty of  similarities exist between between bible stories and  Qur'an Stories .   I am sure if some one reads that "Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ". carefully ., one  will find those funny verses that you are referring to..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Where did Muhammad get his theology about Crucifixion?
     Reply #7 - September 28, 2013, 02:50 PM

    Yes, I was reading 'The Arabic Infancy Gospel', where few of the stories of Qur'an have been borrowed one way or another. So I thought it was pretty funny, that this verse looks like Christians could have thinked, that since Jesus knows everything, he knew his upcoming crucifixion and resurrection already as a child.
    So I thought that if Muhammad made a mistake and borrowed story which was confirming crucifixion and resurrection, it is littlebit funny.

    I assume the person speaking about his upcoming death and resurrection in that passage is Issa (I find the language of Qur'an very unclear). Am I right?

    When did Allāh 'reveal' those passages which said that Isa was not crucified?
    Before or after this Surah 19?

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Where did Muhammad get his theology about Crucifixion?
     Reply #8 - September 28, 2013, 02:54 PM

    ....................................

    When did Allāh 'reveal' those passages which said that Isa was not crucified?
    Before or after this Surah 19?

    That is a very good question., Simple answer is much later than that alleged surah-19 "Maryam " was allegedly revealed..

     To find out exact year in that 23 years of Quran revelations,  I have to sieve through my hard disk., but I am certain it is at least 10 to 12 years after that surah-19 was reveled

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Where did Muhammad get his theology about Crucifixion?
     Reply #9 - September 28, 2013, 03:22 PM

    Do you think Muhammad believed in the crucifixion during the times of Surah 19?
    Is there anything in the Hadith?

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Where did Muhammad get his theology about Crucifixion?
     Reply #10 - September 28, 2013, 03:32 PM

    well let me add this here to those who re interested in the Origins of Quran...

    One of the claims that we all often read from Islamic  intellectuals(I mean Islamic fools) who preach   Quran in Mosques and  on web is  this claim     is ., "THERE IS ONLY ONE QURAN and if there are more All  Qur'ans in the world are identical and Qura  is  perfectly preserved and free from any variation."

    And the other claim you read from these fools is  "No other book in the world can match the Qur'an ... The astonishing fact about  Quran is    it has  NOT CHANGED EVEN a single Arabic dot for the past  fourteen hundred years."

    That  is horse shit and stupid claim.  To start with there are at least 7 Qurans were scribed  between the year 785 to 778

    Quote
    Nafi` (from Medina; d. 169/785)
    Ibn Kathir (from Mecca; d. 119/737)
    Abu `Amr al-`Ala' (from Damascus; d. 153/770)
    Ibn `Amir (from Basra; d. 118/736)
    Hamzah (from Kufah; d. 156/772)
    al-Qisa'i [sic] (from Kufah; d. 189/804)
    Abu Bakr `Asim (from Kufah; d. 158/778)

    And there are are plenty of variations in many verses in those above Qurans..
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Where did Muhammad get his theology about Crucifixion?
     Reply #11 - September 28, 2013, 03:38 PM

    Do you think Muhammad believed in the crucifixion during the times of Surah 19?
    Is there anything in the Hadith?

    That is another important question ., The secret of Islam is "THERE WAS NO Muhammad" or there were multiple  Muhammads.  In fact that crucifixion of Jesus is the crust of Quran. That book is indeed written to question for those who believe in that Jesus Crucifiction/rebirth/son of god/god fable .. REST OF QURAN is just nonsense filled with some silly stories of multiple Muhammads.

    Any ways simple answer to the question is "The Quran  says.,  that Jesus did not die by crucifixion." .. and Most of hadith is bull shit and i need to search those books to answer from hadith..  well let me put these verses here

    Quote
    4:157   And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.   
     
    4:158   Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.   
     
    4:159   And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them

    .

    good to read these links on that subject

    crucifixion confusion

    The "Shame of the Cross" and its Glory

    but PLEASE DON'T TRUST ANYTHING.. you read it, question t and be a judge... we are as intelligent as those who write some books ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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