Jesus was invented by the Romans...

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- David
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Jesus was invented by the Romans...
OP - October 12, 2013, 03:12 AM

So says this article:
http://www.examiner.com/article/we-invented-jesus-christ-ancient-confession-from-roman-aristocrats-found

Will this be greeted with glee by Muslims? Or does their faith fall apart if one of their prophets is nothing but a politically-expedient invention?
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Reply #1 - October 12, 2013, 03:25 AM

Interesting. There goes that brick they found a while back...

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Reply #2 - October 12, 2013, 03:49 AM

Quote from: David on October 12, 2013, 03:12 AM
So says this article:............................................

Ok, so it must be true then.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
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Reply #3 - October 12, 2013, 04:12 AM

The whole truth, and nothing but the truth, will be revealed on October 19th.
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Reply #4 - October 12, 2013, 04:22 AM

Offhand, I think it's likely this bloke is talking shit.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
- lerhodora
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Reply #5 - October 12, 2013, 04:44 AM

James Atwell theory really isn't a credible one. He is not a historian, and if his conspiracy was certifiably true then he would present it to be verified through the right channels. Opposite of charging for tickets and being secretive about the big reveal.

It's not hard to make decisions once you know what your values are.
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Reply #6 - October 12, 2013, 08:39 AM

^^ I know, I know.

But it would be so much more fun if he was right.
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Reply #7 - October 12, 2013, 02:03 PM

Quote from: lerhodora on October 12, 2013, 04:44 AM
James Atwell theory really isn't a credible one. He is not a historian, and if his conspiracy was certifiably true then he would present it to be verified through the right channels. Opposite of charging for tickets and being secretive about the big reveal.

hello lerhodora how are you doing?? And what is the right channel lerhodora? who are the real experts on the 2000 year old history? This is not Physics, Mathematics, genetic engineering, Nuclear science that one need to be trained in a colleges., It is afterall history of religions., it is every where, It is in every high school book, it is all over internet and you have bible stories on hand. I say every college graduate is eligible to do that kind of analysis and propose new hypotheses on the origins of religious books/prophets/rules and regulations. Joseph Atwill is not a uneducated high school drop out..

Quote from: David on October 12, 2013, 03:12 AM
So says this article:
http://www.examiner.com/article/we-invented-jesus-christ-ancient-confession-from-roman-aristocrats-found

Will this be greeted with glee by Muslims? Or does their faith fall apart if one of their prophets is nothing but a politically-expedient invention?

what is new in that? that is a old story.. six years old..

Joseph Atwill - Air date: 04-05-07
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCNJf83bqjs

TV Interview with Joseph Atwill - The Roman Creation of Christianity
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g40Eck6gW7U

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I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Jesus was invented by the Romans...
Reply #8 - October 12, 2013, 03:17 PM

Just a man trying to make some money.
I read reactions from other scholars and they said this is ultimate cee-ar-ay-pee.

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
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Reply #9 - October 12, 2013, 03:48 PM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on October 12, 2013, 03:17 PM
Just a man trying to make some money.

how can you make money writing such books? who will buy it? Sure he would have made more money by working in his software company than doing this..

Quote
I read reactions from other scholars and they said this is ultimate cee-ar-ay-pee.

Links of those SCHOLARS please

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I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #10 - October 12, 2013, 09:57 PM

Quote
hello lerhodora how are you doing?? And what is the right channel lerhodora? who are the real experts on the 2000 year old history? This is not Physics, Mathematics, genetic engineering, Nuclear science that one need to be trained in a colleges., It is afterall history of religions., it is every where, It is in every high school book, it is all over internet and you have bible stories on hand. I say every college graduate is eligible to do that kind of analysis and propose new hypotheses on the origins of religious books/prophets/rules and regulations. Joseph Atwill is not a uneducated high school drop out..

You are right, he is not an uneducated high school drop out, but neither is he a historian with the proper academic training. I am college educated & enjoy reading history, especially when it concerns abrahamic religions. Yet, I do not assert I found a new "truth" behind Jesus when I was reading the bible...Then proceed to hide the information from everyone & charge big bucks so people can hear me speak my "truth" at a big reveal.

Scholarly history still implements scientific principles to reach its conclusions. If he had something of value to say, the proper channel would be for him to get it reviewed, then verified, then debated. AFTER it has been deemed acceptable by a significant number of credible reviewers, then he can feel free to reveal it in a lecture, even charge for it if he really wants money that badly. No academic historian would let others in their field scrutinize their work only after their big reveal, unless they knew from the get go that it is a very thin, stretched out theory. Otherwise, lose their credibility in their chosen career and associated community? Atwell can do this because he is NOT a scholarly historian. He has no community or repuation or life's work to lose if other credible historians tear his thin theory apart after his reveal, and by then he doesn't give a shit. Just relaxing in a corner, counting the money he just made selling tickets to a farce.

I don't believe the Jesus narrative as much as the next person, but I can base my beliefs on verifiable resources from reputable historians. I won't buy into complete fabrications just so I can continue to justify my belief. THAT kind of cognitive dissonance would make me no better than a muslim or christian.

It's not hard to make decisions once you know what your values are.
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Reply #11 - October 12, 2013, 11:10 PM

Hello lerhodora., that is great response I think we can learn something from this discussion on early Christianity
Quote from: lerhodora on October 12, 2013, 09:57 PM
You are right, he is not an uneducated high school drop out, but neither is he a historian with the proper academic training. I am college educated & enjoy reading history, especially when it concerns abrahamic religions. Yet, I do not assert I found a new "truth" behind Jesus when I was reading the bible...Then proceed to hide the information from everyone & charge big bucks so people can hear me speak my "truth" at a big reveal.

   Well although I don't work in the department of History, I too explore this fascinating subject of early religious histories and origins of religious Icons. What I disagree with you this big money thing that you claim he may or may not have made from appearing on those video discussions. Again that fellow already had software companies and made enough money to retire
Quote
..............Having studied computer science in college, Atwill formed a series of successful companies with one of the most renowned programmers in the world, David Ferguson. Many years later, the sale of his interests in these companies allowed him to return to his earlier interest – the origins of Christianity. He spent over a decade studying hundreds of books, among them, the works of Robert Eisenman and the Dead Sea Scrolls. Together with Eisenman, Atwill wrote a paper on the dating of the Dead Sea Scrolls............

  I don't think he is writing such books and doing such interviews to make money., 12 years ago I said exactly what you said about Mohammad Anwar Shaikh .. I have to take that back..
Quote
..........Scholarly history still implements scientific principles to reach its conclusions.................

Please give me some names and Links/books of those SCHOLARS that you think wrote "Scholarly history with implementation of scientific principles to reach right conclusions on early Christianity?

and please continue to discuss that subject., I think it is very important for a forum like this.

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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #12 - October 12, 2013, 11:26 PM

An issue with history is the lack of verified sources that are contemporary. Many sources are decades to centuries after the fact, for example the Old Testament. Many sources are not independent outside sources but merely the continuation of religious theology and scholarship.

A quick death blow to James Atwell's theory are the early synagogues found in Palestine built by true Judeo-Christians. These have been excavated which shows the adaptation of Judeo-Christian to Rome styles rather than Roman adapting to Christian standards. The halo was a Roman concept from Sol Invictus/Helios. Art of figures, their bodies, faces, etc. These are not Jewish concepts but Greeco-Roman. Such art was deemed to be polytheist which Judaism is strictly against. These temples incorporated many aspects of Roman religion in order to hide in plain sight. I will try to find my sources but its been a few years. Sites are Beit Alpha, Sepphoris and Tiberias. All 3 sites have a few concepts from Judaism and Greeco-Roman mixed together, these are tell-tale signs of Christianity.
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Reply #13 - October 12, 2013, 11:38 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on October 12, 2013, 11:10 PM
Please give me some names and Links/books of those SCHOLARS that you think wrote "Scholarly history with implementation of scientific principles to reach right conclusions on early Christianity?

This is a question one can not provide an answer that leads to the "right" conclusion. Biblical Scholarship is divided between Theologians and Historic Scholarship. These two points of views only agree on minor points. Divide Theologian Scholarship into their denominations which is further divides any consensus. From my own field one can point out adaptation of Greeco-Roman influences in Christianity. The whitewashing of polytheist Canaanite religion from Judaism in the Old Testament. The adaptation of Neo-Babylonian, Babylonian and Egyptian influences; Exodus and Genesis.

Check out this channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXtSt_iCM8XMy0Z-B2w9LSg from California Institute for Telecommunications and Information Technology. Look for the Exodus videos from June. there are at least two dozen. This will give you an idea how there is no right answer for all points of view.
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Reply #14 - October 13, 2013, 01:57 AM

Quote from: lerhodora on October 12, 2013, 09:57 PM
I don't believe the Jesus narrative as much as the next person, but I can base my beliefs on verifiable resources from reputable historians.

Good stuff.

I wasn't seriously suggesting that Atwell might have uncovered something that would be the death of Christianity.

What interests me more than the facts are the accomodations people make with the fictions of religion. Christianity of the European sort is rather good at this.

One can believe in a God so nebulous and metaphorical as to be little more than a coat-hanger for one's personal morality, and no-one bats an eye. Even if true, Atwell's theory wouldn't rock the largely cultural phenomenon that is contemporary Christianity.

But it might, ironically, damage Islam, which has yet to get its fictions in order.
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Reply #15 - October 13, 2013, 11:47 AM

To be fair, any old crazy theory is at least as plausible as the actual Bible narrative.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Reply #16 - October 13, 2013, 10:00 PM

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #17 - October 14, 2013, 10:03 PM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on October 12, 2013, 03:17 PM
Just a man trying to make some money.
I read reactions from other scholars and they said this is ultimate cee-ar-ay-pee.

Unfortunately many people ( Atheists for except you guys ) are buying it. I've even talked with some guy in the U.K. who has tickets to see the discussion.
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Reply #18 - October 14, 2013, 10:04 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on October 12, 2013, 03:48 PM
how can you make money writing such books? who will buy it? Sure he would have made more money by working in his software company than doing this..
Links of those SCHOLARS please

Say anything about one of the world's biggest religion and you will become famous.
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Reply #19 - October 14, 2013, 10:07 PM

Quote from: bogart on October 12, 2013, 11:26 PM
An issue with history is the lack of verified sources that are contemporary. Many sources are decades to centuries after the fact, for example the Old Testament. Many sources are not independent outside sources but merely the continuation of religious theology and scholarship.

A quick death blow to James Atwell's theory are the early synagogues found in Palestine built by true Judeo-Christians. These have been excavated which shows the adaptation of Judeo-Christian to Rome styles rather than Roman adapting to Christian standards. The halo was a Roman concept from Sol Invictus/Helios. Art of figures, their bodies, faces, etc. These are not Jewish concepts but Greeco-Roman. Such art was deemed to be polytheist which Judaism is strictly against. These temples incorporated many aspects of Roman religion in order to hide in plain sight. I will try to find my sources but its been a few years. Sites are Beit Alpha, Sepphoris and Tiberias. All 3 sites have a few concepts from Judaism and Greeco-Roman mixed together, these are tell-tale signs of Christianity.

Can you pm me some of those sources?
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