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Theme Changer

 Topic: Free Will vs. God's plan

 (Read 20726 times)
  • 12 3 ... 6 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     OP - October 15, 2013, 11:33 AM

    I find it contradictory. Free will and God's plan cannot coexist with each other. Religious people try convincing us that we are predetermined to go to Hell for rejecting Him. 
    If God exists, then this god is not omniscient, omnipotent and is jealous, ironic, evil and genocidal. Poor children in Africa, they're continuing to suffer because God never wanted to help. Couldn't he have helped us at least at some point? Why doesn't anything happen? People claim this is his test for us. A test? By continually suffering and some ending up dead, possibly those who haven't seen his will yet? I don't get this god. There's probably some designer, some supreme creator but to assign it a gender and make it sound like a human in a different dimension that's quite absurd. I realized the God in religions are false. Maybe a different God no one knows about exists. But not this male, omnipotent cruel god that lets chaos and havoc occur. And for god's plan, well if he knows when we're born and going to die, how is abortion against him? Free will cannot exist in this matter.

    Do ut des. I give so you may give.
    Do ut fascias. I give so you may do.
    Deficit omne quod nasciture. Everything that is born will die.
    A preacher's logic: "Fais comme je dis, non comme j'agis." Do as I say, not as I do.
    "Le parole est l'ombre du fait." A word is a shadow of action.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #1 - October 15, 2013, 03:09 PM

    Predestination and freewill can not co-exist. Any religion that supports predestination negates freewill. As Islam repeated says Allah wills events, peoples choices, etc. Allah can even make people unbelievers which by doing so undermines this person's freewill with God's will. Most theist forms of a God are in conflict with the idea of free will. A deist God is not, no interference, no predestination. Also add in the fact if God knows all things past, present and future certain people are set to fail before birth. So regardless of one's freewill they are unable to change their fate.

    This paradox has been an issue for theists for millennia, Most answers to the question either restrict God there by undermining omniscient or predestination. This is a disadvantage to theists. It makes this concept of God illogical thus is a self-defeating argument.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #2 - October 15, 2013, 05:18 PM

    Allah is a celestial Stalin.

    Islam is literally one big show trial.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #3 - October 15, 2013, 06:14 PM

    Depends on how free will is defined. I think they are compatible as long as free will is taken to mean simply freedom of choice. Of course this wouldn't exempt god from any responsibility whatsoever, since he is the ultimate designer of everything that happens in this world.


    Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #4 - October 15, 2013, 07:25 PM

    melymely, you are 100% correct (except for the probably some designer bit, could make for an interesting discussion though). Add in the fact nothing happens except what allah wills and allah puts veils over our hearts so we'll never see the truth of islam and thus be punished with eternal hell for a crime we didn't commit, and there we go. Allah is evil.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #5 - October 15, 2013, 10:38 PM

    Well I only said designer since we cannot prove with science as to how this universe suddenly got "created" so whatever this designer may be, who knows it probably isn't anything but pure coincidence. And yes, also it's stated that the god of the Abrahamic religions is Yahweh/Satan meaning he is good and bad. Therefore, the concept of Satan wouldn't exist. So Yahweh would be the true cause of evil and good in this world. But I am still confused by the idea of an existence of God because we can't prove it physically nor has it given us any signs of it not any help to this humankind, either and people believe in it so much yet nothing happens in this world. Hell doesn't exist, it exists on this very earth.

    Thy say that if god made himself known to everyone the purpose of god is redundant. I wonder, how so? I am sure more people would believe. Not like how he would randomly throw a non believer in hell for not finding his will. It's irony. So that's why I started to think that islam's god was actually evil. Because he wants muslims to fight in the name of Allah and kill the non believers.

    So I am pretty sure if this god made himself for present in this natural world, I think more people would believe but since he apparently doesn't, he likes watching us suffer from afar because that's his 'test' for us.

    Do ut des. I give so you may give.
    Do ut fascias. I give so you may do.
    Deficit omne quod nasciture. Everything that is born will die.
    A preacher's logic: "Fais comme je dis, non comme j'agis." Do as I say, not as I do.
    "Le parole est l'ombre du fait." A word is a shadow of action.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #6 - October 15, 2013, 10:41 PM

    The idea of god being made redundant if he (He? Really? Why he?) reveals himself (there's that "he" again Roll Eyes) is quite possibly the most ridiculous religious argument I've ever heard. Plus, isn't that the point of religion?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #7 - October 15, 2013, 10:55 PM

    (I always have those thoughts whenever I say he
    Before when I was religious I got used to it so yeah but now it just makes god seem sexist)
    Exactly. They say once you say you get god's will, the truth is set out for you. But I can't find the truth when god didn't send me its will! It would've set its will already to those who are asking for it when they're not convinced . And predestination  Is horrible because if "god" is omniscient it means it already knows who goes to heaven or hell unless it changed its mind. Hogwash.

    Do ut des. I give so you may give.
    Do ut fascias. I give so you may do.
    Deficit omne quod nasciture. Everything that is born will die.
    A preacher's logic: "Fais comme je dis, non comme j'agis." Do as I say, not as I do.
    "Le parole est l'ombre du fait." A word is a shadow of action.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #8 - October 15, 2013, 10:57 PM

    Remember, allah puts a veil over your heart. Not your fault, but you'll still be punished for it.

    Morons.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #9 - October 15, 2013, 11:04 PM

    This hadith is always troubling:

    Quote
    "Verily, each one of you is formed in his mother's womb forty days as a drop, then he is something suspended for a similar period, then he is a piece of flesh like a chewed piece of meat for another period of forty days, then the angel is sent to insert the soul. This angel is ordered to record four things: the sustenance which he will receive during his lifetime, the length of his life, all actions that he will do, and whether he will end up miserable (in hell) or joyous (in paradise). I swear by the One other than whom there is no deity, one of you may do the works of the people of paradise right up until there is only an arm's length between him and paradise, but his destiny overtakes him, so he does the actions of the poeple of the fire and enters it. And, verily, one of you may do the works of the people of hell until there is nothing between them and hell except for one arm's length, but his destiny overtakes him, and so he does the works of the people of paradise, and enters it." [Muslim]


    But as always, you shouldn't ask about things that don't make sense.

    Quote
    Hadith - Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah, Narrated 'Aisha

    I heard Allah's Messenger saying: He who discusses about the Divine Decree (al-Qadr) will be answerable for it on the Day of Resurrection and he who observes silence about it, will not be answerable for it.

  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #10 - October 15, 2013, 11:05 PM

    Islam is self refuting. If something seems wrong, islam isn't wrong, you're wrong. If islam seems corrupt, islam isn't corrupt, you are. If islam seems deficient, islam isn't deficient, you are. You're the problem. It fucks you up mentally and emotionally.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #11 - October 15, 2013, 11:06 PM

    Just change "bible" to "quran"


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #12 - October 16, 2013, 12:59 AM

    Well I only said designer since we cannot prove with science as to how this universe suddenly got "created" so whatever this designer may be, who knows it probably isn't anything but pure coincidence. And yes, also it's stated that the god of the Abrahamic religions is Yahweh/Satan meaning he is good and bad. Therefore, the concept of Satan wouldn't exist. So Yahweh would be the true cause of evil and good in this world. But I am still confused by the idea of an existence of God because we can't prove it physically nor has it given us any signs of it not any help to this humankind, either and people believe in it so much yet nothing happens in this world. Hell doesn't exist, it exists on this very earth.

    Thy say that if god made himself known to everyone the purpose of god is redundant. I wonder, how so? I am sure more people would believe. Not like how he would randomly throw a non believer in hell for not finding his will. It's irony. So that's why I started to think that islam's god was actually evil. Because he wants muslims to fight in the name of Allah and kill the non believers.

    So I am pretty sure if this god made himself for present in this natural world, I think more people would believe but since he apparently doesn't, he likes watching us suffer from afar because that's his 'test' for us.


    This is why I made a distinction between Theism and Deism. Theism's Gods are always interacting with humanity thus God's will supersedes our will repeatedly. Exodus, Adam & Eve, Abraham, David, etc. Deist Gods just get the ball rolling, creation, then leaves everything to the physical laws of the universe. No interaction to save people, no judgement, no messages, nothing. We are left to our own devices. Any God that condemns people to hell based on belief is malevolent. I see these Gods as eternal children. Do what I say or else! A God that judges people for their actions regardless of belief is benevolent. If you led a good life you are judged accordingly regardless of being Hindu, Christian, etc.

    The 3 Abrahamics Gods are from insular people that have repeatedly forced foreign influences from their religion and culture or have claimed it as their own. This is a reason why these religions have a history of us vs them, sect vs sect. heretic vs "true" believer. The repeated reinvention or "orthodox" views keep popping up every few centuries. Their Gods reflect this attitude. The major eastern philosophy-religion do not hold such a position. One can be a non-believer while still following "the path" even if they are ignorant of the path.

    6 blind men were asked to determine what an elephant looked like by feeling different parts of the elephant's body. The blind man who feels a leg says the elephant is like a pillar; the one who feels the tail says the elephant is like a rope; the one who feels the trunk says the elephant is like a tree branch; the one who feels the ear says the elephant is like a hand fan; the one who feels the belly says the elephant is like a wall; and the one who feels the tusk says the elephant is like a solid pipe. A king explains to them "All of you are right. The reason every one of you is telling it differently is because each one of you touched the different part of the elephant. So, actually the elephant has all the features you mentioned"

    Anekantavada:  The principles of pluralism and multiplicity of viewpoints, the notion that truth and reality are perceived differently from diverse points of view, and that no single point of view is the complete truth
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #13 - October 16, 2013, 01:02 AM

    bogart, that may be another for CEMB greatest hits Smiley

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #14 - October 16, 2013, 01:17 AM

    The blind men bit is from Jain, Buddhist and Hindu philosophy.  Sufi Islam adopted it but changed it so that the men were not blind but in the dark and Islam is the light of course...

    Thanks for the props.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #15 - October 16, 2013, 01:20 AM

    Please don't leave this forum.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #16 - October 16, 2013, 01:37 AM

    There's a pretty cool poem made from that story too. I first heard it as a wavering Muslim and it affected me.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #17 - October 16, 2013, 02:09 AM

    Love it.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #18 - October 16, 2013, 06:07 PM

    This is why I made a distinction between Theism and Deism. Theism's Gods are always interacting with humanity thus God's will supersedes our will repeatedly. Exodus, Adam & Eve, Abraham, David, etc. Deist Gods just get the ball rolling, creation, then leaves everything to the physical laws of the universe. No interaction to save people, no judgement, no messages, nothing. We are left to our own devices. Any God that condemns people to hell based on belief is malevolent. I see these Gods as eternal children. Do what I say or else! A God that judges people for their actions regardless of belief is benevolent. If you led a good life you are judged accordingly regardless of being Hindu, Christian, etc.

    The 3 Abrahamics Gods are from insular people that have repeatedly forced foreign influences from their religion and culture or have claimed it as their own. This is a reason why these religions have a history of us vs them, sect vs sect. heretic vs "true" believer. The repeated reinvention or "orthodox" views keep popping up every few centuries. Their Gods reflect this attitude. The major eastern philosophy-religion do not hold such a position. One can be a non-believer while still following "the path" even if they are ignorant of the path.

    6 blind men were asked to determine what an elephant looked like by feeling different parts of the elephant's body. The blind man who feels a leg says the elephant is like a pillar; the one who feels the tail says the elephant is like a rope; the one who feels the trunk says the elephant is like a tree branch; the one who feels the ear says the elephant is like a hand fan; the one who feels the belly says the elephant is like a wall; and the one who feels the tusk says the elephant is like a solid pipe. A king explains to them "All of you are right. The reason every one of you is telling it differently is because each one of you touched the different part of the elephant. So, actually the elephant has all the features you mentioned"

    Anekantavada:  The principles of pluralism and multiplicity of viewpoints, the notion that truth and reality are perceived differently from diverse points of view, and that no single point of view is the complete truth


    Best thing I ever read.

    Do ut des. I give so you may give.
    Do ut fascias. I give so you may do.
    Deficit omne quod nasciture. Everything that is born will die.
    A preacher's logic: "Fais comme je dis, non comme j'agis." Do as I say, not as I do.
    "Le parole est l'ombre du fait." A word is a shadow of action.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #19 - October 16, 2013, 06:25 PM

    6 blind men were asked to determine what an elephant looked like by feeling different parts of the elephant's body. The blind man who feels a leg says the elephant is like a pillar; the one who feels the tail says the elephant is like a rope; the one who feels the trunk says the elephant is like a tree branch; the one who feels the ear says the elephant is like a hand fan; the one who feels the belly says the elephant is like a wall; and the one who feels the tusk says the elephant is like a solid pipe. A king explains to them "All of you are right. The reason every one of you is telling it differently is because each one of you touched the different part of the elephant. So, actually the elephant has all the features you mentioned"

    It's a great parable. But I feel obliged to point out that the elephant is not God. The elephant is the universe, whatever she may be, and the tree branch is the notion of God or gods. The notion of God is a premature conclusion about the reality of the universe.

    I feel obliged to point that out since some people want the elephant to be God in order to make the argument that: God exists, we just don't quite know him yet and the various religions are just different ways of knowing a part of him.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #20 - October 16, 2013, 06:38 PM

    I find it contradictory. Free will and God's plan cannot coexist.................

    I think it is neither  Free will plan nor  god's plan .,

    All of it is the plan of  Willy., willy has its own head, mind, its own freewill

     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #21 - October 16, 2013, 06:53 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z13a4uky600

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #22 - October 16, 2013, 09:11 PM

    It's a great parable. But I feel obliged to point out that the elephant is not God. The elephant is the universe, whatever she may be, and the tree branch is the notion of God or gods. The notion of God is a premature conclusion about the reality of the universe.

    I feel obliged to point that out since some people want the elephant to be God in order to make the argument that: God exists, we just don't quite know him yet and the various religions are just different ways of knowing a part of him.



    Well many see religion as a way to understand the universe so God is invoked if not as as the elephant but as a source of sight, at least in the Sufi version. Modern interpretations see religion as the blind men but fail to realize that the blind men can communicate with each other building any idea of what the elephant is. Many religions do not communicate with each other in this way building an understandingof the "real" picture. Many claim their tree branch is the right way to see it. Communication between many religions is merely a formality lacking true substance or a dialogue. Each side at the end of the day still stumbles away thinking their view is right.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #23 - October 17, 2013, 02:53 PM

    I find it contradictory. Free will and God's plan cannot coexist with each other. Religious people try convincing us that we are predetermined to go to Hell for rejecting Him. 
    If God exists, then this god is not omniscient, omnipotent and is jealous, ironic, evil and genocidal. Poor children in Africa, they're continuing to suffer because God never wanted to help. Couldn't he have helped us at least at some point? Why doesn't anything happen? People claim this is his test for us. A test? By continually suffering and some ending up dead, possibly those who haven't seen his will yet? I don't get this god. There's probably some designer, some supreme creator but to assign it a gender and make it sound like a human in a different dimension that's quite absurd. I realized the God in religions are false. Maybe a different God no one knows about exists. But not this male, omnipotent cruel god that lets chaos and havoc occur. And for god's plan, well if he knows when we're born and going to die, how is abortion against him? Free will cannot exist in this matter.


    No religious people have the answer to human suffering. The typical answer is usually there is human suffering so we can know what is good.

    Abortion is the unnecessary death of a life. There are ways to prevent abortions without banning it.

    As for free will, we do have free will but that does not mean there are no consequences to some of our behavior.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #24 - October 17, 2013, 02:54 PM

    Predestination and freewill can not co-exist. Any religion that supports predestination negates freewill. As Islam repeated says Allah wills events, peoples choices, etc. Allah can even make people unbelievers which by doing so undermines this person's freewill with God's will. Most theist forms of a God are in conflict with the idea of free will. A deist God is not, no interference, no predestination. Also add in the fact if God knows all things past, present and future certain people are set to fail before birth. So regardless of one's freewill they are unable to change their fate.

    This paradox has been an issue for theists for millennia, Most answers to the question either restrict God there by undermining omniscient or predestination. This is a disadvantage to theists. It makes this concept of God illogical thus is a self-defeating argument.


    The reason God knows everything past, present, and future is because he exists out of time.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #25 - October 17, 2013, 02:58 PM

    The reason God knows everything past, present, and future is because he exists out of time.


    What does that even mean? Seriously. Explain it to me like I'm an 8th grader.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #26 - October 17, 2013, 03:14 PM

    Basically there is no time where God is. Time does not exist.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #27 - October 17, 2013, 03:55 PM

    If there's no time there's no existence. It's not like the sci-fi shows where everything just freezes, as that required time in the first place. No time = no anything.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #28 - October 17, 2013, 04:01 PM

    QSE put in the google search browser time does not exist. You find a few science articles on how time does not exist and Einstein's theory of relativity.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #29 - October 17, 2013, 04:32 PM

    It’s a nonsensical cop out. It quite literally can not make any sense if you want to allow for your god to be able to perform any meaningful actions.

    Let me ask you this. You’ve admitted in your posts before that you believe your god does certain things (inspiring Middle Eastern dudes to write books, impregnating virgins, etc.) So if no time exists where god is, how did he start and finish these linear actions that require time in which to perform them? Is he always inspiring random Middle Eastern guys, even now, even after they’ve died? Is he still impregnating Mary? Or is he done doing that? If he’s done, then it happened in time where he is. If he is somehow still doing them or doing them in the absence of time, then that is an unfathomably meaningless statement.
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