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Theme Changer

 Topic: Free Will vs. God's plan

 (Read 20728 times)
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  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #30 - October 17, 2013, 04:51 PM

    HM read my response to QSE and please follow my suggestion.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #31 - October 17, 2013, 04:54 PM

    More interested in the water into wine bit myself. I hear it's heavenly...

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #32 - October 17, 2013, 04:57 PM

    Basically there is no time where God is. Time does not exist.

    QSE put in the google search browser time does not exist. You find a few science articles on how time does not exist and Einstein's theory of relativity.


    Does that mean we're gods?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #33 - October 17, 2013, 04:58 PM

    And just to clarify are talking about the Planck scale?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #34 - October 17, 2013, 05:00 PM

    It doesn't mean there is no time, it means that time isn't fixed. Just like if we went faster than light time would be different for us. At least as far as I understand it.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #35 - October 17, 2013, 05:05 PM

    Does that mean we're gods?


    Nope we are not gods.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #36 - October 17, 2013, 05:08 PM

    And just to clarify are talking about the Planck scale?


    The Planck scale is one of them. We are talking about quantum theory and general relativity.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #37 - October 17, 2013, 08:53 PM

    Yes time actually is an illusion. Past, present and future because this is the quantum mechanics theory  Smiley

    Yet you said he exists out of time...That is quite contradictory to your "time doesn't exist" statement.

    Do ut des. I give so you may give.
    Do ut fascias. I give so you may do.
    Deficit omne quod nasciture. Everything that is born will die.
    A preacher's logic: "Fais comme je dis, non comme j'agis." Do as I say, not as I do.
    "Le parole est l'ombre du fait." A word is a shadow of action.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #38 - October 17, 2013, 09:15 PM

    melymely how can it be a contradiction when God himself is timeless?
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #39 - October 17, 2013, 10:16 PM

    It must be great to be god. What with having no physical laws to fall foul of, but plenty of physical and allegedly moral rules to subject his creation to, we have only the word of his believers that he's not an arrogant, capricious bastard.

    Perhaps suffering shared is suffering halved after all.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #40 - October 17, 2013, 10:18 PM

    OK. So I read the sites you suggested. Honestly, I can’t see how you can interpret them to support your claim of God knowing past, present, and future because he exists outside of time. (Let alone the fact that it is a post hoc, rectumly derived assertion.)

    Simply put, if you believe that your God does actions sequentially, i.e. he does actions that start and finish, what word would you use to explain the span during which those actions take place apart from the word “time?”

    Saying that his existence is outside of time is quite literally a meaningless statement. Either you say that time itself does not exist but is only a human interpretation of the sequential span during which things happen—which is really splitting hairs—or  we say that things that happen happen in time.

    Taking God outside of time does nothing to make him omniscient.

    Please discuss. I’m curious to understand how you think.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #41 - October 17, 2013, 10:52 PM

    The reason God knows everything past, present, and future is because he exists out of time.


    If God exists outside of time he can have no effect on the universe or the creation of it. X causes Y causes Z. If God is timeless he can not at X time create the universe as there is not X time for him.

    Time exists, sorry whatever you read is completely wrong, and probably apologetic garbage.  The Theory of relativity completely supports time, I advice you to read about it. What it does say about time is that it can be dilated, it can be distorted, it can pass at different speeds to observers and objects. Space can be curved by objects, black-holes for example. In relation to time, this curvature causes the gravitational time dilation effect, it distorts space-time.  Under normal circumstances, this effect is impossible to observe.  However, in the presence of the extremes of our universe, black holes, where a huge amount of matter is compressed into an extremely small volume, this effect becomes much more obvious.  To a distant observer, an object falling into a black hole would appear to never reach it, due to time dilation causing time to "progress" extremely slower, at least relative to the distant observer the object in question, however, would very rapidly be destroyed by the black hole. You also should read about B-theory time.

    A second aspect to the gravitational time dilation postulate is that the faster an object is moving, the slower time progresses for that object in relation to a stationary observer.  While in everyday circumstances, this effect goes entirely unnoticed, it has proven to be true.  An atomic clock placed on a jet airplane was shown to "tick" more slowly than an atomic clock at rest.  However, even with the speeds achieved by a jet aircraft, the time dilation effect was minimal.  A more solid example can be seen through an experiment performed on the International Space Station (ISS).  After the first 6 months in space, the crew of the ISS aged .007 seconds less than the rest of us on earth (the relatively stationary observers).  The station moves at approximately 18,000 miles per hour (see applet below to track the location and speed of the ISS), much faster than the range of normal human speeds.  Even with such speeds, however, time dilation is minimal unless you approach speeds close to the speed of light.

    Time is very very much a part of this theory.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #42 - October 17, 2013, 11:15 PM


    As for free will, we do have free will but that does not mean there are no consequences to some of our behavior.


    Keep in mind the example used was Islam's God that will all events. If you trip and break a leg it's his will, if you live to 90, his will, if you chew bubble-gum, his will. If everything is his will than his will supersedes our own free will. We have no choices as God has already determined our course in life. Also if my fate is already determined this suggests a linear time line that is set that has no room for possibility. Free will would limit the sovereignty of Yahweh, Calvin argument. It is one or the other, not both.

    Free will is an illusion. Humanity is always restricted by it's environment and biological factors. Every action we take removes aspects of free will.  We are only left with the freedom of choices. One can not always exercise "free will" due to these restriction. Per-say a child in a poor country wants to become an astronomer. However their social standing, economic situation, education, etc, will hamper this goal to the point of it being impossible. This child's free will is restricted by other factors that their free will is meaningless. The goal can become highly improbable.

    I would love to believe in a high power, a heaven full of my family members and friends. However despite my free will I can not believe, I have no feeling of belief.. My free will is restricted by biology, education, etc. I am only left with the choice of lying by saying I believe or shrugging my shoulders. I can accept the possibility that there is a God but I have no reasons to believe in one.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #43 - October 17, 2013, 11:33 PM

    OK. So I read the sites you suggested. Honestly, I can’t see how you can interpret them to support your claim of God knowing past, present, and future because he exists outside of time. (Let alone the fact that it is a post hoc, rectumly derived assertion.)

    Simply put, if you believe that your God does actions sequentially, i.e. he does actions that start and finish, what word would you use to explain the span during which those actions take place apart from the word “time?”

    Saying that his existence is outside of time is quite literally a meaningless statement. Either you say that time itself does not exist but is only a human interpretation of the sequential span during which things happen—which is really splitting hairs—or  we say that things that happen happen in time.

    Taking God outside of time does nothing to make him omniscient.

    Please discuss. I’m curious to understand how you think.



    HM I believe in a God who cannot know things sequentially. I believe in a God who is timeless and knows all things eternally at once. I also believe God initiated the Big Bang which lead to the creation of our universe. To be honest I always believed the fixation of time is a human invention.

    Yes I know my answer is really gonna split hairs.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #44 - October 17, 2013, 11:48 PM

    If God exists outside of time he can have no effect on the universe or the creation of it. X causes Y causes Z. If God is timeless he can not at X time create the universe as there is not X time for him.

    Time exists, sorry whatever you read is completely wrong, and probably apologetic garbage.  The Theory of relativity completely supports time, I advice you to read about it. What it does say about time is that it can be dilated, it can be distorted, it can pass at different speeds to observers and objects. Space can be curved by objects, black-holes for example. In relation to time, this curvature causes the gravitational time dilation effect, it distorts space-time.  Under normal circumstances, this effect is impossible to observe.  However, in the presence of the extremes of our universe, black holes, where a huge amount of matter is compressed into an extremely small volume, this effect becomes much more obvious.  To a distant observer, an object falling into a black hole would appear to never reach it, due to time dilation causing time to "progress" extremely slower, at least relative to the distant observer the object in question, however, would very rapidly be destroyed by the black hole. You also should read about B-theory time.

    A second aspect to the gravitational time dilation postulate is that the faster an object is moving, the slower time progresses for that object in relation to a stationary observer.  While in everyday circumstances, this effect goes entirely unnoticed, it has proven to be true.  An atomic clock placed on a jet airplane was shown to "tick" more slowly than an atomic clock at rest.  However, even with the speeds achieved by a jet aircraft, the time dilation effect was minimal.  A more solid example can be seen through an experiment performed on the International Space Station (ISS).  After the first 6 months in space, the crew of the ISS aged .007 seconds less than the rest of us on earth (the relatively stationary observers).  The station moves at approximately 18,000 miles per hour (see applet below to track the location and speed of the ISS), much faster than the range of normal human speeds.  Even with such speeds, however, time dilation is minimal unless you approach speeds close to the speed of light.

    Time is very very much a part of this theory.


    Bogart our concept of the fixation of time is a human invention. Would time still exist if humans were not around? It is not apologetic garbage, in fact I got this info from some science nerd Atheists on my Atheist and Theist debate group.

    www.discovermagazine.com/2007/jun/in-no-time#.umB2Hhjmv6g

    www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=is-time-an-illusion

    To be honest even before I got this info, I did believe that our concept of time is a human invention.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #45 - October 17, 2013, 11:51 PM

    Quote
    bogart
    Free will is an illusion. Humanity is always restricted by it's environment and biological factors. Every action we take removes aspects of free will.  We are only left with the freedom of choices. One can not always exercise "free will" due to these restriction. Per-say a child in a poor country wants to become an astronomer. However their social standing, economic situation, education, etc, will hamper this goal to the point of it being impossible. This child's free will is restricted by other factors that their free will is meaningless. The goal can become highly improbable.


    bogart can the child strive to be an astronomer and work hard at getting an education despite their economical disadvantages?


  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #46 - October 18, 2013, 12:08 AM

    Simply put no. If they can not find funding or save for their education their goal stops in it's tracks, environment. If they are not capable of absorbing and utilizing their education the goal again stops in their tracks, biological. I have know many intelligent people that can not attain their goals due to other factors; children, funding, education. I have known people that were to put it bluntly, stupid. I have seen friends struggle for over a decade with school. No matter what they did, I did or the school system nothing worked. They failed to have the grade necessary for university, which is C+. Their goals were never fulfilled so their free willing was meaningless.

    The only thing people have are choice available to them due to biology and their environment. Some goals are unattainable no matter what one "wills"
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #47 - October 18, 2013, 12:31 AM

    Quote
    HM I believe in a God who cannot know things sequentially. I believe in a God who is timeless and knows all things eternally at once.


    Knowing things eternally is one thing. What about DOING things?
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #48 - October 18, 2013, 12:33 AM

    bogart do we have the free will to make choices?
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #49 - October 18, 2013, 12:41 AM

    Knowing things eternally is one thing. What about DOING things?


    My answer is God does not create sequentially. He creates in a single absolute and eternal divine act.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #50 - October 18, 2013, 12:50 AM



    If you read it the articles both were talking about the present in terms of time. As the "present" is always changing, moment by moment.  It also talks about B-theory time. That time does not necessarily flow in one direction or at the same pace. The flow of time could possibly shift, and does as per my examples. These article are about absolute time from Newton. This is nothing new, this is what Einstein in fact did in his theories decades ago.

    If the extrapolate on this idea of a time-less universe the conclusion means that no God is required for it's creations. It is capable of recreating it's self using B-theory time,special relativity and gravity as a driving force for energy. As I already established black-hole distort time. Black-hole also contain massively dense matter which generate gravity pulling in the surrounding matter. So much so that most galaxies are thought to contain super massive black-holes which are the foundation of galaxy formation. Black-holes can also merge adding the matter from one to the other. A possible end of the universe is that black-holes are the only remain point of matter and energy. These keep merging until all matter is contained with one tiny point of space and time. Time no longer exists outside this point and the black-hole evaporates leaving this singularity. As matter is just energy give form this singularity could break down matter into it's basic form of energy. Now this singularity is identical to the one prior to the Big Bang. The process begins anew. This is no an argument for God, it just suggests that the universe in it's basic form can be "time-less" just as God is.

    Both have the same properties; Time-less, immaterial but able to produce the material, eternal, outside of time as it is a property of the material that no longer exists. Space no longer exists as all physical attributes no longer exist.  
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #51 - October 18, 2013, 01:00 AM

    My answer is God does not create sequentially. He creates in a single absolute and eternal divine act.


    And it just trickles down sequentially?

    Side question: Do you ever update your opinions as you receive new information?
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #52 - October 18, 2013, 01:17 AM

    bogart do we have the free will to make choices?


    All this comment is doing taking my response and attaching God to it which is just producing one unnecessary step. This adds nothing to the argument. If God gives us free will he again is imposing his will on to us. If he selects the choices he again is imposing his will on to us. Any form of test or predestination is imposing God's will on to another.

    If God created everything we are, he is also the source of disbelief and belief. God ultimately is the source of sin he is against. I disbelieve for many reasons but the major one is I have no feeling of belief. It is that simple. Now if my judgement is based solely, or at least with a huge bias, on my belief in God I am not responsible for my conclusions. God can not punish me as the responsibility for the choice is ultimately on him, not I. After all God "gave" me everything I am. So the concept hell is rendered useless and illogical. His will give me my "will", all my choices are based on his action alone. All become part of God's plan. Free-will becomes an illusion to veil God's will.



  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #53 - October 18, 2013, 01:19 AM

    If you read it the articles both were talking about the present in terms of time. As the "present" is always changing, moment by moment.  It also talks about B-theory time. That time does not necessarily flow in one direction or at the same pace. The flow of time could possibly shift, and does as per my examples. These article are about absolute time from Newton. This is nothing new, this is what Einstein in fact did in his theories decades ago.

    If the extrapolate on this idea of a time-less universe the conclusion means that no God is required for it's creations. It is capable of recreating it's self using B-theory time,special relativity and gravity as a driving force for energy. As I already established black-hole distort time. Black-hole also contain massively dense matter which generate gravity pulling in the surrounding matter. So much so that most galaxies are thought to contain super massive black-holes which are the foundation of galaxy formation. Black-holes can also merge adding the matter from one to the other. A possible end of the universe is that black-holes are the only remain point of matter and energy. These keep merging until all matter is contained with one tiny point of space and time. Time no longer exists outside this point and the black-hole evaporates leaving this singularity. As matter is just energy give form this singularity could break down matter into it's basic form of energy. Now this singularity is identical to the one prior to the Big Bang. The process begins anew. This is no an argument for God, it just suggests that the universe in it's basic form can be "time-less" just as God is.

    Both have the same properties; Time-less, immaterial but able to produce the material, eternal, outside of time as it is a property of the material that no longer exists. Space no longer exists as all physical attributes no longer exist.  



    But bogart you are referring to something as changing, not time.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #54 - October 18, 2013, 01:21 AM

    Quote
    happymurtad
    And it just trickles down sequentially?


    No

    Are you familiar with the writings of Thomas Aquinas?

    Quote
    Side question: Do you ever update your opinions as you receive new information?


    I would have to say yes. Both my political and theological opinions have changed over the years.


  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #55 - October 18, 2013, 01:23 AM

    The reason God knows everything past, present, and future is because he exists out of time.

    You don't even know what it means to exist out of time. You're a parrot mindlessly repeating a line you've been fed.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #56 - October 18, 2013, 01:30 AM

    But bogart you are referring to something as changing, not time.


    Time is the concept of change, it is how we track it. It is how we measure it's effects. The articles raise the question of is change equal =/= time. Simply put Einsteins work put the universe on equal footing with the concept of God.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #57 - October 18, 2013, 01:39 AM

    Philosophy and cosmology makes me want to poke my eyes out. It's all hypothetical once you try to narrow down fundamental "truth" or sources of "truth". Your argument can be just as logical as my own. We can both reach different conclusions. At best both our answers are on par, at worst both have flaws that go unanswered. The only true difference is one answer provides an absolute that is just an assertion. The other answer doesn't stand by one unified answer. We humans do love have answers rather than not.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #58 - October 18, 2013, 01:48 AM

    According to one of the article links I posted at beyond of a trillionth of a trillionth of a attosecond it is tempus incognito for now.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #59 - October 18, 2013, 02:28 AM

    My answer is God does not create sequentially. He creates in a single absolute and eternal divine act.

    Congratulations on fitting those words into one sentence. Now explain what they actually mean. Smiley

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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