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Theme Changer

 Topic: Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please

 (Read 6413 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     OP - October 16, 2013, 02:59 AM

    I have never really met any other Dune fans, I can see many here have Dune mentions in their profiles. 
    There are some things I have been anxious to discuss about Dune for decades.
    1) Do you feel Dune inadvertently prepped you for Islam before you converted/reverted? (converts only, obviously)
    2) Do you think Frank's creation of the spice originated with the prevalence of cardamon in everything edible in the Gulf? I mean, really, get it off my ice cream!
    3) Are you familiar with the growth of Frank's body of work, how he began with publishing shorter novels having to do with hive mind and viral mind control? If so, how do you feel that influenced his research into prophethood and religion?

    I have never read Kevin's book about Frank, so if you want to share something that seems common knowledge, go ahead. Chances are, I will learn something. If no one has anything to say on this, I will probably look it up on Google and post what is interesting. I want to talk to people, though, rather than a search engine.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #1 - October 16, 2013, 09:49 AM

    I've never read the books but I watched the film years and years ago when it came on TV. It was very slow, but very trippy. I think I've heard people say its got Jesus metaphors in it too with the 'chosen one' messiah is come kind of thing?

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #2 - October 16, 2013, 02:33 PM


    2) Do you think Frank's creation of the spice originated with the prevalence of cardamon in everything edible in the Gulf? I mean, really, get it off my ice cream!



    I honestly have no idea if this concept was borrowed or not. I assume it was but maybe not in the same way as you think. I see spice as a fundamental part of Dune's universe in a similar way petrolatum products are in our world. Although directly these products do not share the same qualities as spice. Indirectly the products increase our life span and keep the "engine" of progress turning. Without these products our modern world would ground to a halt. Spice is an amalgamation of these products; travel, medicine, economic, military, etc. It is a source of strength but also our weakness. The over-reliance of spice created a state of stagnation in the Imperium. Old space travel technology was abandoned, developments in medical fields were left to rogue states that were isolated from the general population. It also became a source on conflict. States would rise and fall over spice. It led to the destruction of the AI Empire, the Corrino dynasty, Harkonnen, Atreides and in the later series, the Imperium. However as long as the spice flowed the lose of a state did little to change the system. For example America could fall but the oil must flow. A new state rises filling the power vacuum but nothing really changed. The system remains the same the Guild, Oil companies, are still in charge with a new mouth piece. In later books Leto limited the spice supply for the sake of the Golden Path. He shattered the Imperium by limiting the sole resource that was key to their universe. By doing so he created a period of time leading to innovation and exploration; No-ships, the Scattering. It also force humanity to face it's demons which are in the form of AI. Humanity faced it's fear, and taboos. AI being seen as a threat as found in the prequels anything deemed to close to an AI became taboo. Human's became the new super-computers, Mentats. Call it Oil vs Wind, Solar, Bio fuels or Bio vs Mechanical. We are now in a mechanical age after centuries of a bio age. By the end of the series the two ideologies were merged.

    We should not fear the past or unknown. We should not become reliant on certain resources less it limits our potential and led to stagnation. Never stop innovation or exploration. Different ideologies can become combined into a new one.

    3) Are you familiar with the growth of Frank's body of work, how he began with publishing shorter novels having to do with hive mind and viral mind control? If so, how do you feel that influenced his research into prophethood and religion?



    I've never read his work outside his novels and Kevin's series set in the Dune Universe. The prequels featured the AI Empire in detail. While not a hive mind in it's true form I think it is a closer representation than religion.

    Religion in the Dune novels reflected religion of the past. A developed religious organization that rivaled all other political bodies except for the Guild. However to the general population the Church's members were feared more than respected. The Fremen were the last of the Jews. There is a family tree built up over the 3 time lines following themes of the Exodus, Kings, Dispora and reunification of the People. Now if this concept of actually being the Jews is more Kevin than Frank, lets just call them the "Chosen Peoples". Their prophecies came true, they were the true believers, they followed the path in the face of all challenges. Like-wise they became arrogant, suffered for it then rediscovered themselves during humanity's armageddon against the AI, devil.

    The Church became divided in the Scattering. One faction becoming more entrenched in their system along with "spirituality" spice provided. The other lost touch with this concept developing a system that encompassed the 7 deadly sins in different forms. This faction became materialist. Both factions became combined into an new ideology forming new concepts.

    Dune portrays a universe similar to our own in a few ways. The prequels are set in a materialist world driven by technology to the point of enslaving us. We become the machines of our creations. It also recreates religion as a unifying factor more than any morale guide. Franks standard series reflect a reactionary view of needing to fall back to our roots, fear developing to fast and general fear of the unknown even the elements that are in our society; The Church and Guild. A Savoir appears to save us but in order to do so he must destroy us. The Sequels are our destruction as all view points, Bio/Mechanical and Spirituality/Material, go at it in a free for all. These concepts combine creating a new gold age for humanity. Past and Future are united in the Present. Old and New are combined. Humanity is at balance with it's self and world around it.
  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #3 - October 17, 2013, 12:13 AM

    I've never read the books but I watched the film years and years ago when it came on TV. It was very slow, but very trippy. I think I've heard people say its got Jesus metaphors in it too with the 'chosen one' messiah is come kind of thing?


    Yeah. Frank spent I think eight years researching prophethood and religious cycles.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #4 - October 17, 2013, 12:16 AM

    Did you like the film?

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #5 - October 17, 2013, 12:19 AM

    Hi bogart,
    I did get the whole government dependent substance thing. I just think that, since it was also edible (melange), that perhaps Frank couldn't get away from the cardamon.
    I didn't want to include Kevin's backstories, because the perception of the Dune universe is profoundly different if you leave out that body of work. For us older folk, it wasn't available until decades later, and I personally feel it significantly detracted from the original presented Dune universe. This could be from the vast difference in writing style, Kevin did not write as if he had a background and interest in Sociology or Psychology. Whereas Frank could not write anything at all without revealing this immediately and using it to flesh out his characters.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #6 - October 17, 2013, 12:20 AM

    Did you like the film?


    Which one? The first one I did like, the second set which I believe was filmed for a SciFi channel I don't remember as well.

    But I like anything Frank.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #7 - October 17, 2013, 12:26 AM

    The movie version directed by David Lynch. I just remember it being quite dark and strange and trippy.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #8 - October 17, 2013, 12:28 AM

    Yes, the first one. Very good. But in the second one they got the descriptions so wrong that it kept freaking me out.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #9 - October 17, 2013, 12:29 AM

    Hi bogart,
    I did get the whole government dependent substance thing. I just think that, since it was also edible (melange), that perhaps Frank couldn't get away from the cardamon.
    I didn't want to include Kevin's backstories, because the perception of the Dune universe is profoundly different if you leave out that body of work. For us older folk, it wasn't available until decades later, and I personally feel it significantly detracted from the original presented Dune universe. This could be from the vast difference in writing style, Kevin did not write as if he had a background and interest in Sociology or Psychology. Whereas Frank could not write anything at all without revealing this immediately and using it to flesh out his characters.



    It could reflect cardamon or just the spice trade in general as seen during Europe's colonization of the East Indies. These colonies enabled relatively tiny nations such as the Dutch to compete with much larger nations like France, Russia, etc.

    I can definitely see the elements you bring forward. The whole universe not just the characters are based on concepts found in each as well as ideologies.
  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #10 - October 17, 2013, 12:33 AM

    Good points. I am so happy I got replies on this. I think I have waited over a decade to talk about it with anyone.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #11 - October 17, 2013, 01:11 AM

    Why did you wait so long?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #12 - October 17, 2013, 01:13 AM

    I was in Purdah about that long. I only knew a few people who read in English, and they were not as into Dune as I was.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #13 - October 17, 2013, 01:24 AM

    What country was that in?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #14 - October 17, 2013, 01:35 AM

    The United States of America.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #15 - October 17, 2013, 01:36 AM

    The movie version directed by David Lynch. I just remember it being quite dark and strange and trippy.


    It was a lot truer to the descriptions, in my opinion, than the new ones.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #16 - October 17, 2013, 01:41 AM

    The United States of America.


    The fuck? When you say purdah what comes to mind if the halls of northern India or something. Are you talking niqab or some weird isolated group that practises weirdness somewhere with a few acres of land?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #17 - October 17, 2013, 02:25 AM

    Dune? Dune? Good poster.

    http://www.joblo.com/upcomingmovies/1986/betty-blue

    I had that ^^ poster on my slant ceiling above my bed, first year at uni. Beatrice Dalle adorned many a students wall. Sorry to derail thread 3, will move to appropriate, my derailing? I am hostage to my genes.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #18 - October 17, 2013, 02:31 AM

    The fuck? When you say purdah what comes to mind if the halls of northern India or something. Are you talking niqab or some weird isolated group that practises weirdness somewhere with a few acres of land?


    Purdah just means you are not going out without a chaperone, and your house is set up in such a way that no one sees in.
    Here is a short and in no way comprehensive list of groups that practice such things:
    Muslims
    Hindus
    Persians
    Crazies
    Monsters

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #19 - October 17, 2013, 02:34 AM

    Dune? Dune? Good poster.

    http://www.joblo.com/upcomingmovies/1986/betty-blue

    I had that ^^ poster on my slant ceiling above my bed, first year at uni. Beatrice Dalle adorned many a students wall. Sorry to derail thread 3, will move to appropriate, my derailing? I am hostage to my genes.


    Good memory.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #20 - October 17, 2013, 02:42 AM

    Good memory.


    Indelibly inked into my mind. Camden Town used to buy posters/film posters/photographs of nice women. You made me think about something else now.

    We as students, mew mainly used to nick street and road signs and huge bill posters that we used to peel off just after it raind, our digs were covered in them. us housemates then had a race to see who could collect all th underground stickers, one for each line and the whole map, strret signs - I nicked my home street sign, my road, and drilled to the wall, lamps, road closed, solicitor office plates, memories....

    other posters - james dean/angel heart (mickey rourke) Marilyn munroe, good bad ugly

    I will remember the names of the women in balck and white photographs - bridgitte Bardot/kim novak/Natasha kinski/it eludes me now, it is late, dune sand is in my eyes, [cya 3 PO (passed overtime, jedi would have appreciated that, wonder where he is)]

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #21 - October 17, 2013, 02:44 AM

    shabbakhair

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #22 - October 17, 2013, 03:03 AM

    Can't help but notice the lack of reply. Sorry if it was an uncomfortable question.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #23 - October 17, 2013, 03:15 AM

    Can't help but notice the lack of reply. Sorry if it was an uncomfortable question.


    I show it as number 18. Didn't I reply? Maybe I should stop listening to the Cure..

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #24 - October 17, 2013, 03:35 AM

    Nah, you're good. Sorry I just saw your reply.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #25 - October 17, 2013, 03:36 AM

    Ah. Permission for the Cure. You are a good person.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #26 - October 17, 2013, 03:56 AM

    Rock on me love, rock on Punk

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Re: Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #27 - October 17, 2013, 06:14 PM

    I was in Purdah


    Solitude.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #28 - October 18, 2013, 12:25 AM

    Solitude.


    Isolation.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Frank Herbert's Dune NOT Kevin Herbert's, please
     Reply #29 - October 18, 2013, 12:52 AM

    Are we playing word association. We would write a good book together. Like I suggest one - west two - east 3 - middle way

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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