Praying Five Times

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OP - October 21, 2013, 05:10 AM

I read in the Islamic Encyclopedia that the pre-Islamic Arabs used to pray five times a day towards the Kaaba. Has anyone ever heard of this in the past?
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Reply #1 - October 21, 2013, 05:32 AM

Yes, I've heard of it. I read it in the Islamic Encyclopedia too, but when I mentioned it to my dad, he said that the encyclopedia was not to be trusted. Well, that's what he always says when I find something contradictory in either the hadith, biographies, histories or whatever. Muhammad retained this pre-Islamic practice, sanctioning it with a night trip to heaven on a beast called Al-Buraq. In heaven, the Hadith tells us that Allah demanded 50 prayers per day per Muslim. Upon advice from Moses, Muhammed bargains with Allah and successfully reduces it to five prayers per day. Coincidence? I think not.

Muhammad also stole lots of other Islamic practices from the pagans, such as worship at the Ka'bah, kissing of the Black Stone, fasting on the 10th of Muharram, the Tawaf between Safa and Marwa, the requirement of Ihram, the crescent moon symbol and the 7 times circumambulation of the Ka'bah.

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Reply #2 - October 21, 2013, 05:47 AM

Quote from: ConstaLevin on October 21, 2013, 05:32 AM
circumambulation around

Around and, er, around?
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Reply #3 - October 21, 2013, 05:53 AM

There's also been some speculation that the seven circumambulations around the Kaaba equate to the seven planets of the Solar System revolving around the sun.

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

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Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
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Reply #4 - October 21, 2013, 06:10 AM

Quote from: David on October 21, 2013, 05:47 AM
Around and, er, around?

Thanks for pointing that out David

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Reply #5 - October 21, 2013, 06:33 AM

Sorry to be pedantic, but you're bright enough to use unnecessarily complicated words correctly.

With thickos there is often beauty in tautology.
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Reply #6 - October 21, 2013, 07:15 AM

Apart from being a right mouthful, 'circumambulate' lends the ritual a dignity it does not deserve. 'Walk round' exposes its petty futility, no?
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Reply #7 - October 21, 2013, 08:43 AM

How about "futile circular perambulations"?

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Reply #8 - October 21, 2013, 08:51 AM

With a circle jerk thrown in at sundown.
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Reply #9 - October 21, 2013, 12:54 PM

Quote from: Nour on October 21, 2013, 05:53 AM
There's also been some speculation that the seven circumambulations around the Kaaba equate to the seven planets of the Solar System revolving around the sun.

I think it was rather seven heavenly bodies, which included the sun and the moon.
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Reply #10 - October 21, 2013, 03:20 PM

I think that the 'bargaining' that happened between Muhammad and Allah was beyond ridiculous. Someone correct me here, but Allah apparently needed to have Moses (Muhammad thought it was okay for his followers to pray all day) tell him that 50 prayers a day is too much for one Muslim. So if you believe in the night trip, without Moses, then all Muslims would have been doomed. Is not that an insult to the prophet?

It also makes an allegation against Allah too. It makes him seem merciless and narcissistic imposing 50 salahs a day. Whilst Allah says,

"[The Quran 2:286] GOD never burdens a soul beyond its means: to its credit is what it earns, and against it is what it commits……”

“The Quran 23:62] We never burden any soul beyond its means, and we keep a record that utters the truth. No one will suffer injustice.”

I'm not sure if this hadith is legit or not, and most Muslims (well, my mum and dad) say it's not, but then again it is Sahih Bukhari. The most trusted compilation of hadiths.

Here's the full hadith (it's not my fault it's long. The Prophet is occasionally impossibly verbose) :

[Sahih Bukhari Book #8, Hadith #345] Narrated Abu Dhar: Allah's Apostle said, "While I was at Mecca the roof of my house was opened and Gabriel descended, opened my chest, and washed it with Zam-zam water. Then he brought a golden tray full of wisdom and faith and having poured its contents into my chest, he closed it. Then he took my hand and ascended with me to the nearest heaven, when I reached the nearest heaven, Gabriel said to the gatekeeper of the heaven, 'Open (the gate).' The gatekeeper asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel answered: 'Gabriel.' He asked, 'Is there anyone with you?' Gabriel replied, 'Yes, Muhammad I is with me.' He asked, 'Has he been called?' Gabriel said, 'Yes.' So the gate was opened and we went over the nearest heaven and there we saw a man sitting with some people on his right and some on his left. When he looked towards his right, he laughed and when he looked toward his left he wept. Then he said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious son.' I asked Gabriel, 'Who is he?' He replied, 'He is Adam and the people on his right and left are the souls of his offspring. Those on his right are the people of Paradise and those on his left are the people of Hell and when he looks towards his right he laughs and when he looks towards his left he weeps.' Then he ascended with me till he reached the second heaven and he (Gabriel) said to its gatekeeper, 'Open (the gate).' The gatekeeper said to him the same as the gatekeeper of the first heaven had said and he opened the gate. Anas said: "Abu Dhar added that the Prophet met Adam, Idris, Moses, Jesus and Abraham, he (Abu Dhar) did not mention on which heaven they were but he mentioned that he (the Prophet ) met Adarn on the nearest heaven and Abraham on the sixth heaven. Anas said, "When Gabriel along with the Prophet passed by Idris, the latter said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious brother.' The Prophet asked, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Idris." The Prophet added, "I passed by Moses and he said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious brother.' I asked Gabriel, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Moses.' Then I passed by Jesus and he said, 'Welcome! O pious brother and pious Prophet.' I asked, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Jesus. Then I passed by Abraham and he said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious son.' I asked Gabriel, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Abraham. The Prophet added, 'Then Gabriel ascended with me to a place where I heard the creaking of the pens." Ibn Hazm and Anas bin Malik said: The Prophet said, "Then Allah enjoined fifty prayers on my followers when I returned with this order of Allah, I passed by Moses who asked me, 'What has Allah enjoined on your followers?' I replied, 'He has enjoined fifty prayers on them.' Moses said, 'Go back to your Lord (and appeal for reduction) for your followers will not be able to bear it.' (So I went back to Allah and requested for reduction) and He reduced it to half. When I passed by Moses again and informed him about it, he said, 'Go back to your Lord as your followers will not be able to bear it.' So I returned to Allah and requested for further reduction and half of it was reduced. I again passed by Moses and he said to me: 'Return to your Lord, for your followers will not be able to bear it. So I returned to Allah and He said, 'These are five prayers and they are all (equal to) fifty (in reward) for My Word does not change.' I returned to Moses and he told me to go back once again. I replied, 'Now I feel shy of asking my Lord again.' Then Gabriel took me till we '' reached Sidrat-il-Muntaha (Lote tree of; the utmost boundry) which was shrouded in colors, indescribable. Then I was admitted into Paradise where I found small (tents or) walls (made) of pearls and its earth was of musk."

'My principal sin is doubt. I doubt everything, and am in doubt most of the time,' Levin said.
― Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina
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Reply #11 - October 21, 2013, 05:25 PM

^ I still can't understand how the average Muslim can believe that.
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Reply #12 - October 21, 2013, 05:30 PM

I still can't wrap my head around the all knowing all wise all perfect creator of everything thinking 50 prayers a day was reasonable only to be haggled with by a 7th century a desert trader who convinced him to knock off 45 of them.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #13 - October 21, 2013, 06:18 PM

It is interesting to note that the pagans thought of the story as something humourous as well. Here, have a read :

In the morning, after the ascension had taken place, the holy Prophet talked to people about the Miraj. This drew the jeers of his enemies.

"Look!" the howled out, "what nonsense he talks! Surely, now his followers too will laugh at him. Who is going to believe in such a midsummer night dream?"

The talk was going on when Abu Bakr came up. "Do you know, Abu Bakr, what news your friend has for you in the morning?" said one of the mean. "He says he was on the highest heaven last night, having a talk with Allah, the Almighty. Would you believe it?"

"I would believe anything that the Messenger of Allah says," replied Abu Bakr
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Reply #14 - October 21, 2013, 06:20 PM

I think the pagans had it right.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #15 - October 21, 2013, 06:35 PM

Well you could think of it as, the prophet knew the people better than God. Then again bare in mind, God is meant to know everything beforehand as it is all written, so he knew the prophet was going to haggle him down, perhaps it was the prophets test? Will he do what I wrote for him to do, with the inclination I created him with to do so, kind of like test running, checking if your creation works as you intended. Call it building a wooden jack in the box, testing the mechanical movement that you intended for it, then chucking it on the fire when it didn't work accurately, but it feels pain and has a soul.

"Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
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Reply #16 - October 21, 2013, 06:39 PM

Yay, Jibbs is back!

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #17 - October 21, 2013, 06:42 PM

Quote from: Jibbs on October 21, 2013, 06:35 PM
Well you could think of it as, the prophet knew the people better than God. Then again bare in mind, God is meant to know everything beforehand as it is all written, so he knew the prophet was going to haggle him down, perhaps it was the prophets test? Will he do what I wrote for him to do, with the inclination I created him with to do so, kind of like test running, checking if your creation works as you intended. Call it building a wooden jack in the box, testing the mechanical movement that you intended for it, then chucking it on the fire when it didn't work accurately, but it feels pain and has a soul.

Good analogy. Well, I call it a story unconsciously made of wishful thinking.
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Reply #18 - October 21, 2013, 06:54 PM

Well praying 5 times.. 10 times.. whatever times in your home is all right, that is not a problem. The problem comes "putting head in to the sand, especially in to the Arabian sand 5 times a day and parrot talking with some hate filled gibberish verses from so-called islamic manuals or using some words of that hate filled mullah who uses in Mosques with loud speakers to keep his hold on mosque goers..... " That is the problem.. Now in modern times, the problems come in different ways., this is the problem., that is Paris and This is Moscow..

And The Church Bell rings at the same time as Muslims Sing Allah Song.. Well if the two groups meet on a road in any city, the problem bound to occur..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6E0qmqv_Ug

well.. Having fun and bit laugh is the best medicine..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #19 - October 21, 2013, 07:01 PM

glad to see someone missed me haha

"Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
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Reply #20 - October 21, 2013, 07:09 PM

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #21 - October 21, 2013, 07:35 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on October 21, 2013, 07:09 PM

"Ignoring the "SELF" is the best way to live life QSE"., That is indeed the principle behind biological evolution without which the planet would have been filled with only primitive species.

So PREYING 5 times..eating three times.. bending ass up to the sky., how many times??

Quote
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Masud: The Prophet entered Mecca and (at that time) there were three hundred-and-sixty idols around the Ka’aba. He started stabbing the idols with a stick he had in his hand and reciting: "Truth (Islam) has come and Falsehood (disbelief) has vanished." Sahih Bukhari 3:43:658

Narrated Abu Dhaar: I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Which mosque was built first?" He replied, "Al-Masjid-ul-Haram." I asked, "Which (was built) next?" He replied, "Al-Masjid-ul-Aqs-a (i.e. Jerusalem)." I asked, "What was the period in between them? He replied, forty years. ...Sahih Bukhari 4:55:63

Narrated Aswad: Ibn Az-Zubair said to me, "Aisha used to tell you secretly a number of things. What did she tell you about the Ka'ba?" I replied, "She told me that once the Prophet said, 'O 'Aisha! Had not your people been still close to the pre-Islamic period of ignorance (infidelity)! I would have dismantled the Ka'ba and would have made two doors in it; one for entrance and the other for exit." Later on Ibn Az-Zubair did the same. Sahih Bukhari 1:3:128

Narrated 'Aisha: 'Ashura' (i.e. the tenth of Muharram) was a day on which the tribe of Quraish used to fast in the pre-lslamic period of ignorance. The Prophet also used to fast on this day. So when he migrated to Medina, he fasted on it and ordered (the Muslims) to fast on it. When the fasting of Ramadan was enjoined, it became optional for the people to fast or not to fast on the day of Ashura Sahih Bukhari 5:58:172

Narrated 'Asim: I asked Anas bin Malik: "Did you use to dislike to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Yes, as it was of the ceremonies of the days of the Pre-lslamic period of ignorance, till Allah revealed: 'Verily! (The two mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who performs the pilgrimage to the Ka'ba, or performs 'Umra, to perform Tawaf between them.' " (2.158) Sahih Bukhari 2:26:710

Quote
Pagans prior to Islam would pray five times per day towards Mecca. Muhammad retained for Islam, this pre-Islamic practice, sanctioning it with a story of a night trip to heaven on a mythical beast called al-Buraq. In heaven, the Hadith tells us that Allah demanded 50 prayers per day per Muslim. Upon advice from Moses, Muhammed bargains with Allah and successfully reduces it to five prayers per day.

Zoroastrians are also expected to recite their (kusti) prayers at least five times a day having first cleansed themselves by washing (ablution). So even today, this is not a practice unique to Islam. But, contrary to the Muslims, they pray in the direction of the Sun (at each time of the day) and/or of the Holy Fire (if they are in a Fire Temple).

and..and There is no denying that the Black Stone was one among many stones and idols venerated at the Ka’aba by the pre-Islamic pagans. The Black Stone was kissed during pre-Islamic pagan worship. Though Muhammad threw out 360 other objects at the Ka’aba, he retained this Black Stone and continued the practice of kissing it. It is this same stone that the pre-Islamic pagans once kissed, that Muslims kiss today when visiting Mecca.

Pagan RASCALS..

So QSE.. Quantized Super Electron.... I am interested in the connection between hadith and Quran.. Which is the best place to visit for that??

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #22 - October 21, 2013, 11:58 PM

Quote from: ConstaLevin on October 21, 2013, 03:20 PM
Here's the full hadith (it's not my fault it's long. The Prophet is occasionally impossibly verbose) :

Waspish. Like it.

Thanks for that. (Though I rather wish I hadn't read it.)
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