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Theme Changer

 Topic: The People of the Muddy Spring

 (Read 7132 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     OP - November 17, 2013, 03:26 PM
    Quote
    Lo! We made him strong in the land and gave him unto every thing a road. And he followed a road. Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness. Then he followed a road. Till, when he reached the rising-place of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter therefrom.
    Qur'an 18:84-91


    I did not realise that the quran is a book of its time!  Then and for another thousand years, people were telling wondrous tales of who lived over the next sea.  Marco Polo brought loads of these tales back, Umberto Eco has many times told these tales, as in Baudolino.

    So are there more stories of the people where the sun sets?  Where does the sun set?
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #1 - November 17, 2013, 04:03 PM
    things are clearer in this translation:

    Quote
    [84-88] We had established his power on the Earth and had provided him with every kind of ways and means. At first, he made preparations for an expedition (to the West and marched on) till he reached the limit where the sun set, and found it setting in black waters, and there he saw a people. We said to him, “O Zul-Qarnain! You have the power to punish them and also the option to treat them generously.” He said, “We will punish that one of them who will commit iniquity: then he shall be returned to his Lord and He will inflict on him a grievous torment: And as for the one, who will believe and do righteous deeds, there is a generous recompense and We will prescribe for him easy tasks.”

    [89-91] Then he made preparations (for another expedition and marched on) till he reached the limit where the sun rose. There he saw the sun rising on a people, whom We had not given any shelter from sun shine. This was their condition and We know well whatever Zul-Qarnain possessed.


    accompanying explanatory notes can be found at http://www.englishtafsir.com/Quran/18/index.html#sdfootnote65sym
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #2 - November 17, 2013, 04:17 PM
    Interesting link.


    Quote
    76This verse has two meanings. The one is the same that we have adopted in the translation. The other meaning is this: "...those who confined all their endeavors to the worldly life". That is, whatever they did, they did for this world without paying any regard to God and the Hereafter. As they considered the worldly life to be the real life, they made the success and prosperity in this world their sole aim and object. Even if they professed the existence of Allah, they never paid any heed to the two implications of this profession: to lead their lives in a way to please Allah and to come out successful on the Day they shall have to render an account of what they did in this world. This was because they considered themselves to be mere rational animals who were absolutely independent and free from every kind of responsibility and had nothing else to do but to enjoy the good things of the world like animals in a meadow.


    77"All their deeds were lost" in the sense that they will be of no avail to them in the life-after-death, even though they might have considered them as their great achievements but the fact is that they will lose all their value as soon as the world shall come to an end. When they will go before their Lord, and all their deeds shall be placed in the Scales, they will have no weight at all whether they had built great palaces, established great universities and libraries, set up great factories and laboratories, constructed highways and railways, in short, all their inventions, industries, sciences and arts and other things of which they were very proud in this world, will lose their weights in the Scales. The only thing which will have weight there will be that which had been done in accordance with the Divine instructions and with the intention to please Allah. It is, therefore, obvious that if all of one's endeavors were confined to the worldly things and the achievement of worldly desires whose results one would see in this world, one should not reasonably expect to see their results in the Hereafter, for they would have gone waste with the end of this world. It is equally obvious, that only the deeds of the one, who performed them strictly in accordance with His instructions to win His approval with a view to avail of their results in the Hereafter, will find that his deeds had weight in the Scales. On the contrary, such a one will find that all his endeavors in the world had gone waste.


    I wonder how they came to those opinions.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #3 - November 17, 2013, 11:12 PM
    maududi's commentary appears to be consistent with the original text and elaborated on a bit with his own understanding in the context of modern times.

  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #4 - November 17, 2013, 11:28 PM
    Sort of like how genesis is consistent with modern times?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #5 - November 17, 2013, 11:55 PM
    I don't know anything about genesis - I'm just saying he's made an attempt to explain the message in terms that can be understood by his audience.

  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #6 - November 18, 2013, 12:00 AM
    According to Hinduism, energy cannot be created nor destroyed, but can only change its own manifestation. They have written this down thousands of years ago, and this has recently been proven by science. Albert Einstein's theory of relativity confirms this principle, and these principles have since been tested time and time again, only ever to be confirmed. Therefore Hinduism must be true.

    Agreed?

    (I should point out that as with Maududi's commentary it appears to be consistent with the original text and elaborated on a bit with their own understanding in the context of modern times) Wink
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #7 - November 18, 2013, 12:10 AM
    I mean the moral message is consistently conveyed - not any pseudo scientific dis-/similarities.

    if the original text of genesis says don't be involved in usury then I don't expect modern interpretations to say the opposite...
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #8 - November 18, 2013, 12:11 AM
    What moral message?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #9 - November 18, 2013, 12:20 AM
    to obey god, etc
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #10 - November 18, 2013, 12:26 AM
    You may want to scan through this. A few pages in I have a back and forth that gives a good answer to your it's moral to obey god comment.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=24923.0
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #11 - November 18, 2013, 12:44 AM
    belief equals obedience and correct moral behavior stems from that.

    doing good deeds whilst rejecting belief isn't the same - some say it's unfair but it's not surprising that intentions matter more than just actions.

    if there's a religion that says don't believe in anything but be a good person then I'd like to ask what the criteria are for this goodness?
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #12 - November 18, 2013, 12:45 AM
    If you read further along you'll see I make points on how obeying god isn't actually moral. I think my first example was the story of Lot.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #13 - November 18, 2013, 12:50 AM
    Also, I'm not sure you got my point in response to Maududi's commentary. When I said "Sort of like how genesis is consistent with modern times" and "This proves hinduism" what I was trying to highlight was that what Maududi did with islam (consistent with the original text, elaborated in the context of modern times) doesn't really mean anything as far as truth goes as this same thing can and indeed is applied to every religion.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #14 - November 18, 2013, 01:05 AM
    The car story and god demanding worship? It's a long thread.

    I don't think I understood your point. I don't recall saying anything about truth or proving things? I just said he gives an accurate rendition of the intended message - whether or not the original message has any validity
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #15 - November 18, 2013, 01:17 AM
    This is a point that can also be applied to islam.

    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on September 19, 2013, 02:13 AM
    I really would like to respond to this line of thought, because it's something that always bothered me. If we accept god created us to be a certain way, and that way is sinful, I think it's horrific. God decides to make certain things wrong or immoral or what have you, and then deliberately creates you to be this way. So we're needing salvation because of how god chose to make us. We were born with a sickness we can never overcome and commanded on pain of eternal punishment to be well. The crime we committed was being how god made us and we have to beg and plead with god to forgive us for being the way he made us to be. These teachings are sadistic, wicked and evil.


    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on September 19, 2013, 05:44 AM
    But see, that's what gets me. The idea of it not supposed to be taken literally. Then what's the point in any of it? What's the point in having a story of a talking snake in a magic garden if that's all nonsense? What's the point in talking about original sin if there was no original sin? Why try to explain childbirth by saying we're punishing you because of what Eve did, that originally it was painless? If it's to be taken literally, then you know it's proven false. If it's to be taken metaphorically, then what's the fucking point? What metaphor is Noah's ark supposed to be? What's up with the rest of the nonsense? What moral lesion are we supposed to receive on the not really actually true story of Lot sending his own children to be raped brutally by a rabid mob? I mean, what? What is the lesson? What is the point of these perverse fairy tales?


    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on September 19, 2013, 05:25 AM
    The bible was obviously not inspired by god any more than the quran was. There never was an Adam and Eve. There was never a garden of Eden with a talking snake. There was no original sin. There was no global flood where an old man and his family built an ark and collected two of EVERY species on the planet. This is just ludicrous nonsense. We KNOW it's nonsense, we've PROVEN it's nonsense. I'm not even saying there is no god, I'm saying the gods of human religions do not exist and we've proven it. Once you prove the holy books are a bunch of bollocks, I mean...what else does it take? It's insanity. To accept as truth fairy tales you know full well could not have possibly taken place is just insane. It really is insanity.

    I think that's one of the reasons you didn't agree with my posts on original sin. The fact you don't like how I worded it doesn't lessen the fact that I had valid points.


    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on September 19, 2013, 12:04 AM
    On the one hand, you need to accept Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour. Acknowledge him as god, the way the truth and the light. Anyone who fails to do this will burn forever. Then you say this same individual does not demand we worship him to get into heaven. Because obviously when you make it clear the only other alternative is eternal torment, that's not like blackmail or anything.

    That's where you contradicted yourself.


    Had a quick look. Those are a few.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #16 - November 18, 2013, 01:26 AM
    you get free will to make your own decisions and god does demand belief so long as you hear the message.

    if you don't get the fax rather than simply ignoring/ridiculing it then that's another story.

  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #17 - November 18, 2013, 01:29 AM
    By getting the fax I'm assuming you mean the realisation that it's true?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #18 - November 18, 2013, 01:36 AM
    you get the fax and then decide whether to put it on the bin or not - the choice to believe (or not) is entirely yours when you're in possession of the available facts.
  • Re: The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #19 - November 18, 2013, 01:40 AM
    Quote from: someguy on November 18, 2013, 12:44 AM
    belief equals obedience and correct moral behavior stems from that.

    doing good deeds whilst rejecting belief isn't the same - some say it's unfair but it's not surprising that intentions matter more than just actions.

    if there's a religion that says don't believe in anything but be a good person then I'd like to ask what the criteria are for this goodness?



    The criteria for good is what we decide it to be, as we have with many things. Good and evil are very human concepts and whether or not you believe in a god doesn't change this.

    You may find this interesting, it's about being a good person without a belief in a god or an afterlife. I'd actually be interested what your thoughts are on it.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=24235.msg697248#msg697248
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #20 - November 18, 2013, 07:52 AM
    Umm, does the sun set and rise?  Is it possible to go to where they set and rise?
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #21 - November 18, 2013, 11:41 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on November 18, 2013, 01:40 AM
    The criteria for good is what we decide it to be, as we have with many things. Good and evil are very human concepts and whether or not you believe in a god doesn't change this.

    You may find this interesting, it's about being a good person without a belief in a god or an afterlife. I'd actually be interested what your thoughts are on it.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=24235.msg697248#msg697248


    interesting thread actually, although nothing really convincing (to me) about morals being independent of belief (from a believer's perspective).

    so that chap was saved by an umbrella... that wasn't very convincing either. unfortunately his emotional desire for belief completely undermined him and those weak foundations were badly exposed when the salafi zeal wore out.

  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #22 - November 18, 2013, 11:45 PM
    Well I was mostly talking about the post I wrote for him as you mentioned criteria for good.

    How do you mean his desire for belief undermined him? Far as I know he's still back to being a believer. It makes him happy and gives meaning to his life.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #23 - November 18, 2013, 11:57 PM
    Just an observation, doesn't the fact that morals exist without belief show precisely that they are independent of belief?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #24 - November 19, 2013, 12:11 AM
    it seems clear that his struggle was unresolved at the end of that thread - perhaps he stopped worrying and put his doubts to the back his mind.

    you can call them morals according to your own definition - whilst other may call them empty values that fall short due to the missing god component.
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #25 - November 19, 2013, 12:15 AM
    Why would they be called empty values because of that?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #26 - November 19, 2013, 12:16 AM
    Quod isnt defining morals differently, in fact you are the one redefining morals by taking the position morals must include a god element.
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #27 - November 19, 2013, 12:18 AM
    that's exactly what i'm doing - is that unexpected?
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #28 - November 19, 2013, 12:20 AM
    Why would they be called empty values because of that? In fact if we go by your earlier comment that if you obey what's written then it's automatically good I could turn it around. Isn't it also easy to say that if you follow a religion those are empty values because it's simply something you've been told is right rather than thinking about things and coming to your own conclusions?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #29 - November 19, 2013, 12:36 AM
    @someguy

    So what do you think makes something moral? Is it the fact that God likes or commands it?
    Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
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