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Theme Changer

 Topic: The People of the Muddy Spring

 (Read 7143 times)
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  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #30 - November 19, 2013, 12:39 AM
    Quote from: someguy on November 19, 2013, 12:18 AM
    that's exactly what i'm doing - is that unexpected?


    Nope, it just shows that you have a limited perspective and an inability to look outside this perspective.
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #31 - November 19, 2013, 01:43 AM
    that's not hypocritical?
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #32 - November 19, 2013, 01:45 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on November 19, 2013, 12:20 AM
    Why would they be called empty values because of that? In fact if we go by your earlier comment that if you obey what's written then it's automatically good I could turn it around. Isn't it also easy to say that if you follow a religion those are empty values because it's simply something you've been told is right rather than thinking about things and coming to your own conclusions?


    it's a matter of perspective - saying that it's impossible to disagree about a definition makes no sense. we're doing that now.
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #33 - November 19, 2013, 01:57 AM
    Quote from: Stuff on November 19, 2013, 12:36 AM
    @someguy

    So what do you think makes something moral? Is it the fact that God likes or commands it?



    you don't have to be commanded to do a particular thing - so long as keep in mind your belief in god then it becomes good or bad in a religious sense.

    is this surprising??
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #34 - November 19, 2013, 02:01 AM
    Quote from: someguy on November 19, 2013, 01:45 AM
    it's a matter of perspective - saying that it's impossible to disagree about a definition makes no sense. we're doing that now.


    Morality isn't a definition that makes no sense, it's something very fundamentally human. Since time began they've been developed, and most people would agree with the core principles of what's right. The Golden Rule comes to mind as an example.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #35 - November 19, 2013, 02:09 AM
    but we don't agree.

    accepting that doesn't mean defeat or victory.
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #36 - November 19, 2013, 02:19 AM
    So you don't agree that there's such a thing as right and wrong? Simply submit and obey?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Re: The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #37 - November 19, 2013, 02:19 AM
    Quote from: someguy on November 19, 2013, 01:57 AM
    you don't have to be commanded to do a particular thing - so long as keep in mind your belief in god then it becomes good or bad in a religious sense.


    I'm not sure I understand. So an action can only be good or bad if done with belief in god in mind? I'm not trying to be snarky, just trying to understand why you think the 'god component' is essential for morality. How do you go about determining if something is good or bad?
    Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #38 - November 19, 2013, 02:33 AM
    believe in god, do some things, they get judged good or bad.

    disbelieve in god, do some things,  nothing gets judged good.

    this is from a religious point of view, don't expect humanistic fairness.
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #39 - November 19, 2013, 02:40 AM
    So good things are irrelevant? Are evil things also meaningless?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #40 - November 19, 2013, 02:48 AM
    wolves kill, are they evil?
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #41 - November 19, 2013, 02:51 AM
    You want to put human morality onto wolves?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #42 - November 19, 2013, 04:53 AM
    Quote from: someguy on November 19, 2013, 02:48 AM
    wolves kill, are they evil?


    If you wish to apply human standards to wolves than I believe wolves are good, above that of humans. Wolves do not kill for emotional pleasure as humans do; sport for example. Wolves do not destroy their environment for material "wants" rather they function within what is required to survive. Wolves do not kill merely to posses what other wolves have. Wolves function within their basic instincts and lack the ability to form concepts humans have be it money, philosophy, science.

    Quote from: someguy on November 19, 2013, 02:33 AM
    believe in god, do some things, they get judged good or bad.

    disbelieve in god, do some things,  nothing gets judged good.

    this is from a religious point of view, don't expect humanistic fairness.


    Illogical. Humans judge actions as good and bad all the time either with or without religion. You must also realize that many religions condemn each other's actions all the time.

    Perform action, religion A judges it as good, religion B judges it as bad. It is never black or white good or bad once you add more variables to the argument.

    Is genocide wrong? Is genocide wrong when performed or commanded by God?

    Quote from: someguy on November 19, 2013, 01:43 AM
    that's not hypocritical?


    No because I am open to the argument morality is from God as per commands/scripture via a set of religions. Morality could be part of human nature given to us by God so rather than following commands our morality changes as we progress, ie what was once morale is no longer seen as morale. Also the common morality seen in many religions could be part of this nature, murder for example. Morality could be completely naturalistic void of any God. I am open to the possibility that any one of these arguments could be correct. I do not disqualify one argument because it adds or removes God from the equation. I am not the one saying morality has to have a God behind it, you are. I am not the one defining morality within a limited view.

    To me God is a plausible answer, just as many naturalistic answers are plausible. However none of the God answers provide proof. Most are just additions to natural explanations.
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #43 - November 19, 2013, 05:19 AM
    Quote from: someguy on November 19, 2013, 02:33 AM
    believe in god, do some things, they get judged good or bad.


    Judged based on what? What makes actions morally good or bad?

    Quote
    disbelieve in god, do some things,  nothing gets judged good.


    So helping the needy is good when done by a believer, but not when done by an atheist?
    Do you think all atheists are equally bad, or are there degrees? Is Bill Gates just as bad as Joseph Stalin?

    Quote
    this is from a religious point of view, don't expect humanistic fairness.


    I think there is only one fairness, and it's not to be found in Islam.
    Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #44 - November 19, 2013, 04:10 PM
    I am sure there are many examples of animals playing and killing for sport.  But are things good because the gods say so?
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #45 - November 19, 2013, 05:18 PM
    I was only talking about wolves. Keep in mind by sport I am not talking about instinct driven responses. I am referring to trophy hunting.
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #46 - November 23, 2013, 02:42 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on November 19, 2013, 02:40 AM
    So good things are irrelevant? Are evil things also meaningless?



    within the limits of a touchscreen and inclination towards lazin
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #47 - November 23, 2013, 02:58 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on November 19, 2013, 02:40 AM
    So good things are irrelevant? Are evil things also meaningless?


    meaningless and irrelevant to/for who?

    within the limitations of a touchscreen and an inclination towards laziness, I say the deeds of both muslims and non-muslims can be measured as "good" or "bad" by the god of islam.

    whether those deeds result in punishment or reward in the hereafter is dependent on the criteria of belief.
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #48 - November 23, 2013, 06:56 PM
    Yet disbelief or belief in the wrong "God" merits more consideration than someone that does good without the reward/punishment bait.
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #49 - November 23, 2013, 07:53 PM
    the reward or punishment is handed down whether you're motivated by the incentives or not.

    that just leaves the belief part which unsurprisingly you find burdensome.
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #50 - November 23, 2013, 08:22 PM
    It's more an odd thing to say. If you're a good person and you believe in god, then your goodness matters, if you're a good person and you don't believe in god, it' doesn't matter. It's just weird. Why would it make a difference?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #51 - November 23, 2013, 09:36 PM
    Quote from: someguy on November 23, 2013, 07:53 PM
    the reward or punishment is handed down whether you're motivated by the incentives or not.

    that just leaves the belief part which unsurprisingly you find burdensome.


    Yes I find the concept that belief along with reward and punishment for said belief should merit consideration odd. Not just a belief in the concept of God but a specific belief along with the bells and whistles. Especially if said belief holds irrational concepts which are required. More to the point if the message is contradicted it is not the fault of the reader if the conclusion is not what was intended by the "writer". It is the "writers" fault for not communicating their message is a clear and correct format.
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #52 - November 23, 2013, 09:51 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on November 23, 2013, 08:22 PM
    It's more an odd thing to say. If you're a good person and you believe in god, then your goodness matters, if you're a good person and you don't believe in god, it' doesn't matter. It's just weird. Why would it make a difference?


    the answer is that being a good person and doing good deeds arent the same thing.
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #53 - November 23, 2013, 11:31 PM
    Why are being a good person and doing good things meaningless if you're a good person who does good things without a belief in god?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #54 - November 23, 2013, 11:49 PM
    meaningless is the wrong word, perhaps futile is closer.

  • The People of the Muddy Spring
     Reply #55 - November 24, 2013, 12:11 AM
    Right and wrong don't matter?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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