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Theme Changer

 Topic: my second apostacy

 (Read 11742 times)
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  • my second apostacy
     Reply #30 - November 19, 2013, 12:32 AM
    Quote from: three on November 19, 2013, 12:31 AM
    Yeah. Let's put this in context. Plenty of uneducated people live AS Muslims? What are you talking about?


    if that's a serious question, see below:

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=25297.msg719232#msg719232
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #31 - November 19, 2013, 12:34 AM
    Quote from: someguy on November 18, 2013, 11:55 PM
    Any divine message has to pass through the filter of human experience - specific time and place is addressed in many instances.

    That doesn't invalidate it's authenticity but it would be a mistake to make assumptions based on the types of issues being addressed - extract the principles and apply with understanding.


    So, if the message is passed through a human filter, then is it still divine? I think not. The Quran is divine, or no? How does playing telephone not invalidate authenticity? What do you mean, extract the principles? Are you claiming that Shariah is misapplied?
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #32 - November 19, 2013, 12:37 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on November 19, 2013, 12:28 AM
    three you just basically reworded my last comment lol http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=25296.msg719248#msg719248


    I can't help it. I like the way you think, when you are thinking as I am.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #33 - November 19, 2013, 12:40 AM
    Quote from: someguy on November 19, 2013, 12:32 AM
    if that's a serious question, see below:

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=25297.msg719232#msg719232


    Of course it's a serious question. Do you see any emoticons, here? Why do I want to see yeezevee's quote? I am asking him, or you? So you are saying there are masses of people who are not Muslim, yet living AS Muslims? So what? Is this conversation about Islam and Muslims or those you dismiss as only living AS Muslims? Why do you invalidate their faith based on their educational opportunities?
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #34 - November 19, 2013, 12:41 AM
    Quote from: three on November 19, 2013, 12:27 AM
    You cannot remove sexism from Islam. It is hardcoded into the Shariah. Muslims cannot be individual. They submit their will to another, and allow their choices to be made for them, following directions in all things, big and small.


    your tone suggest they also have to submit their understanding of islam to ex-muslims... otherwise it might undermine the latter's justification to leave?
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #35 - November 19, 2013, 12:42 AM
    Quote from: Cornflower on November 18, 2013, 06:27 PM
    No, definitely not. I was actually 18 and not 19. I got to know my husband long after I had "returned" to the faith. I converted even before knowing a single Muslim. Don't know if I'd had a different opinion if I had seen the actual implementation of Islam before reading the white washed dawah material.


    Interesting.  For some reason I am glad that your husband was not the catalyst for your conversion.

    Quote from: three on November 19, 2013, 12:27 AM
    I cannot tell you how stupid I feel explaining this to progressives. It's as if they were children.


    He still hasn't answered that question also. It's as if they can't or will not.

    Someguy: No, it's not for justification.  It's to understand why those still in the faith still bother fighting for it.
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #36 - November 19, 2013, 12:46 AM
    Quote from: three on November 19, 2013, 12:40 AM
    Of course it's a serious question. Do you see any emoticons, here? Why do I want to see yeezevee's quote? I am asking him, or you? So you are saying there are masses of people who are not Muslim, yet living AS Muslims? So what? Is this conversation about Islam and Muslims or those you dismiss as only living AS Muslims? Why do you invalidate their faith based on their educational opportunities?


    you misunderstand me in your eagerness to attack. after an encounter with drsloth, i have to double-check whether you're just an angry basher or silly comedian.

    have some patience and reread what I said - if you don't want to, then don't.
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #37 - November 19, 2013, 12:46 AM
    Quote from: someguy on November 19, 2013, 12:29 AM
    humanity is the filter...

    Exacto.

    Common human sense, common human decency, elightened self-interest.

    Awareness of one's own ignorance and insignificance that may be made less painful by belief in a God (or the healing powers of alcohol).
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #38 - November 19, 2013, 12:53 AM
    Quote from: someguy on November 19, 2013, 12:41 AM
    your tone suggest they also have to submit their understanding of islam to ex-muslims... otherwise it might undermine the latter's justification to leave?


    My tone cannot be deciphered by text. I am explaining to you quite patiently that to become Muslim means you accept Islam in it's entirety. Not pieces of it. That when you take Shahada, you accept what it says. Deciding what to accept and what not to accept in Islam makes you something else, or Bidah. Islam is complete. The Prophet is the seal. There is no innovation after him. Believe it, or not. If you do not, then do not go about telling people there is some new alternative Islam. Only the Shia and the Ahmadiyya can do that. They have religious authority.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #39 - November 19, 2013, 12:55 AM
    Quote from: movingfeet on November 19, 2013, 12:42 AM

    He still hasn't answered that question also. It's as if they can't or will not.



    If you have blind faith, you cannot, you hit a wall in your reasoning and cannot get past it. It's a barrier to free thought.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #40 - November 19, 2013, 12:56 AM
    Quote from: David
    Awareness of one's own ignorance and insignificance that may be made less painful by belief in a God (or the healing powers of alcohol).


    why painful?
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #41 - November 19, 2013, 12:57 AM
    Quote from: three on November 19, 2013, 12:55 AM
    If you have blind faith, you cannot, you hit a wall in your reasoning and cannot get past it. It's a barrier to free thought.


    it's hard to keep up on a phone - what question.
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #42 - November 19, 2013, 12:57 AM
    Quote from: someguy on November 19, 2013, 12:46 AM
    you misunderstand me in your eagerness to attack. after an encounter with drsloth, i have to double-check whether you're just an angry basher or silly comedian.

    have some patience and reread what I said - if you don't want to, then don't.


    Hell yeah I am eager to attack you. You cannot claim there are millions of people living AS Muslims. Ask them if they are just living as Muslims, or if they are Muslims. I bet they don't want you telling them they are uneducated, either. Probably they can do things you are helpless about, and understand their Madhab better than you understand yours, you don't know.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #43 - November 19, 2013, 12:58 AM
    Quote from: three on November 19, 2013, 12:53 AM
    My tone cannot be deciphered by text. I am explaining to you quite patiently that to become Muslim means you accept Islam in it's entirety. Not pieces of it. That when you take Shahada, you accept what it says. Deciding what to accept and what not to accept in Islam makes you something else, or Bidah. Islam is complete. The Prophet is the seal. There is no innovation after him. Believe it, or not. If you do not, then do not go about telling people there is some new alternative Islam. Only the Shia and the Ahmadiyya can do that. They have religious authority.

    So far, four other people have been trying to explain that to him, including myself, in two separate threads.
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #44 - November 19, 2013, 01:00 AM
    Quote from: three on November 19, 2013, 12:53 AM
    My tone cannot be deciphered by text. I am explaining to you quite patiently that to become Muslim means you accept Islam in it's entirety. Not pieces of it. That when you take Shahada, you accept what it says. Deciding what to accept and what not to accept in Islam makes you something else, or Bidah. Islam is complete. The Prophet is the seal. There is no innovation after him. Believe it, or not. If you do not, then do not go about telling people there is some new alternative Islam. Only the Shia and the Ahmadiyya can do that. They have religious authority.


    do you find it strange to be dictating religious belief to people?
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #45 - November 19, 2013, 01:00 AM
    Quote from: someguy on November 19, 2013, 12:57 AM
    it's hard to keep up on a phone - what question.

    Quote from: someguy on November 19, 2013, 12:57 AM
    it's hard to keep up on a phone - what question.


    The question of "Why are you claiming the uneducated masses live AS Muslims? Why do you dismiss them so? Are they Muslim, or not? Who gets to decide?"
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #46 - November 19, 2013, 01:00 AM
    Quote from: someguy on November 19, 2013, 01:00 AM
    do you find it strange to be dictating religious belief to people?


    No stranger than when the Prophet did it to me, and them, and those guys over there.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #47 - November 19, 2013, 01:01 AM
    Quote from: movingfeet on November 19, 2013, 12:58 AM
    So far, four other people have been trying to explain that to him, including myself, in two separate threads.


    how kind of you to be so patient.
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #48 - November 19, 2013, 01:01 AM
    Quote from: movingfeet on November 19, 2013, 12:58 AM
    So far, four other people have been trying to explain that to him, including myself, in two separate threads.


    Maybe we should just swap recipes, then. Any idea how to make a decent Ghormeh Subzi without hours of cooking and blending?
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #49 - November 19, 2013, 01:02 AM
    Quote from: someguy on November 19, 2013, 12:56 AM
    why painful?

    Perhaps 'scary' would have been better. The pain of gut-fear-of-the-void.
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #50 - November 19, 2013, 01:02 AM
    Quote from: three on November 19, 2013, 01:00 AM
    No stranger than when the Prophet did it to me, and them, and those guys over there.


    your bitter experience is the authority? you see no conflicts in that?
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #51 - November 19, 2013, 01:06 AM
    Quote from: someguy on November 19, 2013, 01:01 AM
    how kind of you to be so patient.


    She is kind. I like her, and her writing style. I am waiting for her to join me for lunch.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #52 - November 19, 2013, 01:06 AM
    Quote from: someguy on November 19, 2013, 01:01 AM
    how kind of you to be so patient.

     You're welcome.
    Quote from: three on November 19, 2013, 01:01 AM
    Maybe we should just swap recipes, then. Any idea how to make a decent Ghormeh Subzi without hours of cooking and blending?

    The moment they come out with a gourmet frozen food equivalent, I will let you know. Hard to find some of the ingredients here for that.
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #53 - November 19, 2013, 01:08 AM
    Quote from: three on November 19, 2013, 01:00 AM
    The question of "Why are you claiming the uneducated masses live AS Muslims? Why do you dismiss them so? Are they Muslim, or not? Who gets to decide?"


    I didn't dismiss them, that was your assumption.

    it was a response to people who say intellectual honesty doesnt allow them to believe - the link to the other guy's post gave the flipside of the argument.

    if you read the whole trail then you wouldnt have made that mistake.
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #54 - November 19, 2013, 01:10 AM
    Quote from: someguy on November 19, 2013, 01:02 AM
    your bitter experience is the authority? you see no conflicts in that?


    Which experience is more valid? My bitter awakening to my own marginalization under Islamic thought and the Shariah- and subsequent freedom, or my blissful ignorance- when I was drowning in apologist literature and ripping my back to shreds in Taraweeh? Is there a conflict? I don't know... maybe self-deceit, denial, to self-awareness?  Cognitive dissonance. I will lean back and let you tell me where the conflict is. Where is the conflict?
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #55 - November 19, 2013, 01:14 AM
    Quote from: three on November 19, 2013, 01:06 AM
    She is kind. I like her, and her writing style. I am waiting for her to join me for lunch.


    Thank you! Where do you live? Perhaps one day we could have lunch in reality.
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #56 - November 19, 2013, 01:15 AM
    Quote from: someguy on November 19, 2013, 01:08 AM
    I didn't dismiss them, that was your assumption.

    it was a response to people who say intellectual honesty doesnt allow them to believe - the link to the other guy's post gave the flipside of the argument.

    if you read the whole trail then you wouldnt have made that mistake.


    I don't have to read the whole trail. My English is good enough to understand what "living as muslims" means. It means living as something you are not. If it is a mistake on your part, due to your phone, or your classism, then we can let it go. I just hope you realize that the uneducated masses of any religion are your equal, and mine. Because we are all equal. All of us. And each of us determines who we are, and who we are not. It does not matter what school we go to, or which of us ties fishnets (can you?), makes nappies from discarded shirts (I can), or programs in archaic C++. We are the same, all our masses.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #57 - November 19, 2013, 01:17 AM
    Quote from: movingfeet on November 19, 2013, 01:06 AM
    You're welcome.The moment they come out with a gourmet frozen food equivalent, I will let you know. Hard to find some of the ingredients here for that.


    See, they have a bottled version. But the bottles are TINY.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #58 - November 19, 2013, 01:21 AM
    Bet they are expensive too.
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • my second apostacy
     Reply #59 - November 19, 2013, 01:22 AM
    Quote from: someguy on November 19, 2013, 01:08 AM
    I didn't dismiss them, that was your assumption.

    it was a response to people who say intellectual honesty doesnt allow them to believe - the link to the other guy's post gave the flipside of the argument.

    if you read the whole trail then you wouldnt have made that mistake.


    Intellectual honesty has not a damn thing to do with education. It has to do with logic.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
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