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 Topic: The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection

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  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     OP - November 20, 2013, 04:13 AM
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/19/science/a-cold-war-fought-by-women.html?_r=0

    Found this an interesting read.
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #1 - November 20, 2013, 04:26 AM
    Yes it is. Thank you.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #2 - November 20, 2013, 08:05 PM
    Very interesting. So hang on a minute: does this mean some people wont be able to blame men, the fashion industry, and whoever else for their problems?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #3 - November 21, 2013, 03:49 AM
    Do you really think men and the fashion industry are two different references? Who is running the fashion industry, who is creating demand?

    But that does not address your question.
    I think one reason that Islamic dress appeals to so many of us women is that it excuses us from the competition. For converts, it is a welcome break after competitive Western society. After you get over the initial bliss, you find that it still plays out, just with different garments, different triggers.
     
    Some people, I suppose, in light of this study, will not be able to hang their issues on whatever their favorite scapegoat is, I guess. But they will find another, because ducking their personal responsibilities is their forte.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #4 - November 21, 2013, 07:23 AM
    No. It doesn't address my question. grin12

    I meant "men" in the sense of the hetero/bi male populace at large, as opposed to "the fashion industry" which is a seperate category that includes both women, as well as men who have no sexual interest in women. One point being that studies have shown that "men" in that sense do not really want women who look like runway models, meaning "men" in that sense cannot be the pressure behind any desire to look like a runway model (ie: skinny as hell).

    A very mistaken idea that "men" really do want women to look like runway models could possibly be behind it, but that would have nothing to do with "men" as such. It'd simply be an odd idea that someone got into their head despite it being less attractive to "men", and despite this being fairly common knowledge ("men" even say so, publicly and not infrequently).

    Another thing that sprang to mind is that if women are investing time, energy and competition in trying to control the perceived threat of other women's sexuality, that would tie in with it being women who promote and continue the practice of FGM. Remove a younger and more conventionally/physically attractive woman's ability to enjoy sex, and you've reduced your competition.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #5 - November 21, 2013, 09:49 AM
    I see little difference in the propensity for aggression and competitiveness of women or men, only differences in culturally acceptable outlets. What the base propensity is channeled into is generally different due to gendered cultural constraints, but when the world is opened up with the breathing room of equality and when those superficial cultural inhibitions are removed from the equation (such as in certain sports that are opening up for women, for example) it makes no difference what is between your legs.

    Source: my ass.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #6 - November 22, 2013, 05:01 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on November 21, 2013, 07:23 AM
    No. It doesn't address my question. grin12

    I meant "men" in the sense of the hetero/bi male populace at large, as opposed to "the fashion industry" which is a seperate category that includes both women, as well as men who have no sexual interest in women. One point being that studies have shown that "men" in that sense do not really want women who look like runway models, meaning "men" in that sense cannot be the pressure behind any desire to look like a runway model (ie: skinny as hell).

    A very mistaken idea that "men" really do want women to look like runway models could possibly be behind it, but that would have nothing to do with "men" as such. It'd simply be an odd idea that someone got into their head despite it being less attractive to "men", and despite this being fairly common knowledge ("men" even say so, publicly and not infrequently).

    Another thing that sprang to mind is that if women are investing time, energy and competition in trying to control the perceived threat of other women's sexuality, that would tie in with it being women who promote and continue the practice of FGM. Remove a younger and more conventionally/physically attractive woman's ability to enjoy sex, and you've reduced your competition.


    I use the word "men" in regards to DNA, save for those few who come forward and say, I want to be known as a woman. I did not mention sexual preference, and I do not consider that to detract in any way from one's gender. 
    So I am afraid I cannot answer your post, because of this definitive difference.
    Men are still in control of the fashion industry, historically. By my common definition of the word "men".

    You have FGM backwards. Women who perpetuate FGM do so because it is their cultural norm,  because they want their daughters to be accepted, to be able to marry and have a future. If they have not had this done to them, their chances of a full life are curtailed in their communities.  Do you not know that in at least one culture, women who have not been snipped are considered to be unclean, and the community/family will not eat food she has prepared? This was a few years ago, when it made CNN. Not a hundred years ago.
    By your logic, there would be some intact queen bee at the top of the village hierarchy. This is not how it is.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #7 - November 22, 2013, 06:59 AM
    Quote from: three on November 22, 2013, 05:01 AM
    I use the word "men" in regards to DNA, save for those few who come forward and say, I want to be known as a woman. I did not mention sexual preference

    I know you didn't. I did.

    Quote
    ... and I do not consider that to detract in any way from one's gender.

    Neither do I, however it does affect one's attitudes to women, which was the point. To put it more clearly, the men that women supposedly want as sexual partners cannot be the source of any pressure to look like runway models, since said men (subset of the whole, of course) are known to not want women to look like that. Ergo, the source of the pressure must be looked for elsewhere.

    If any woman is trying to look like a runway model because she thinks it will improve her chances of getting male sexual partners, she is mistaken (in the majority of cases, anyway).

     
    Quote
    You have FGM backwards. Women who perpetuate FGM do so because it is their cultural norm,  because they want their daughters to be accepted, to be able to marry and have a future. If they have not had this done to them, their chances of a full life are curtailed in their communities.  Do you not know that in at least one culture, women who have not been snipped are considered to be unclean, and the community/family will not eat food she has prepared? This was a few years ago, when it made CNN. Not a hundred years ago.
    By your logic, there would be some intact queen bee at the top of the village hierarchy. This is not how it is.

    Yes, I know all that. And it does not follow that there would be one "queen bee" anyway. It's just as likely that any society would have a group of higher ranking females, which come to think of it is what we tend to see in practice.

    My logic isn't backwards, as far as I can tell. You seem to be overlooking the fact that not only do women promote such practices because it is culturally acceptable, but they actually believe it's a good thing to do. In other words, they aren't just going along with it reluctantly. They are actively involved in supporting the practice.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #8 - November 22, 2013, 07:17 AM
    Women can be even more cruel to each other than a man ever can be to women. Instead of standing together and supporting each other, we sometimes intentionally hurt one another with a surprising amount of malice.  The reasons vary, but it is sad.     
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #9 - November 22, 2013, 10:39 AM
    Well I'm not sure about more cruel. Equally, yes.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #10 - November 22, 2013, 10:58 AM
    I don't agree.  Mute point to argue anyway.  Each experience is subjective. Either way, it's more cruel to me because we are betrayed by the ones who can understand our plight better than someone not of our sex can.
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #11 - November 22, 2013, 06:50 PM
    That's "moot". Tongue
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #12 - November 22, 2013, 07:00 PM
    yea, I was pulling another all nighter when I typed that
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #13 - November 22, 2013, 07:15 PM
    Fair nuff. I'm so used to dealing with people who really don't know the difference.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #14 - November 22, 2013, 07:49 PM
    I agree that most people should be born mute.
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #15 - November 22, 2013, 11:14 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on November 22, 2013, 06:59 AM
    I know you didn't. I did.
    Neither do I, however it does affect one's attitudes to women, which was the point. To put it more clearly, the men that women supposedly want as sexual partners cannot be the source of any pressure to look like runway models, since said men (subset of the whole, of course) are known to not want women to look like that. Ergo, the source of the pressure must be looked for elsewhere.

    If any woman is trying to look like a runway model because she thinks it will improve her chances of getting male sexual partners, she is mistaken (in the majority of cases, anyway).

     Yes, I know all that. And it does not follow that there would be one "queen bee" anyway. It's just as likely that any society would have a group of higher ranking females, which come to think of it is what we tend to see in practice.

    My logic isn't backwards, as far as I can tell. You seem to be overlooking the fact that not only do women promote such practices because it is culturally acceptable, but they actually believe it's a good thing to do. In other words, they aren't just going along with it reluctantly. They are actively involved in supporting the practice.


    You said they were doing it out of a sense of competition. I disagree. That is what I meant by backwards. FGM is not promoted for reasons of removing the competition.

    The fashion industry has been dominated by men, historically. I said that the fashion industry and men are synonymous. That's all.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #16 - November 23, 2013, 04:27 AM
    Quote
    You said they were doing it out of a sense of competition. I disagree.

    Yes, I know you do. However, people often have more than one motivation for doing things, and often not all motivations are verbalised or even conscious. All I was saying was that if this study is correct, women wanting to exert control over other women's sexuality for their personal benefit would tie in with the promotion by women of FGM in some cultures. I'm not saying it's proven, merely an interesting possibility that is plausible. Fuck knows there seems to be no sane reason for them to do it.

    Quote
    The fashion industry has been dominated by men, historically. I said that the fashion industry and men are synonymous.

    On which planet?

    Past and present, from a large range of countries. Appears to be roughly 50% female. Wiki list of fashion designers

    25 of the most influential female designers that changed fashion forever: 100% female, obviously.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #17 - November 23, 2013, 05:09 AM
    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/08/fashion/thursdaystyles/08FASHION.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2138097/Is-easier-men-survive-fashion-world-women-Why-female-designers-struggle-noticed-competitive-industry.html

    Maybe it's just my country, rather than the planet. But I doubt it. I hate posting "proof" links. So why don't we quit. Every industry under the sun has been dominated by men.



    You win on the "it could be a subconscious competitive sport" for promoting FGM by women. I can't compete with speculative fiction.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #18 - November 23, 2013, 05:25 AM
    I do not think FGM is subconscious competition.
    Quote from: osmanthus on November 23, 2013, 04:27 AM
    All I was saying was that if this study is correct, women wanting to exert control over other women's sexuality for their personal benefit would tie in with the promotion by women of FGM in some cultures.


    The reason is not to exert control over another's sexuality.  If that were true, they would not promote it.  In those cultures, women with FGM makes them more eligible for marriage and more desirable for men.  If it was truly for competitive reasons, they would not be encouraging women to get it.  When a woman that is competitive finds clothing that is attractive and unique, do you think she goes around letting other women know where to buy those and for good prices? Hell no. 

    They promote it because they genuinely think it is the right thing to do.  Makes you more virtuous (curbs the sex drive supposedly) and makes you more desirable as a wife.
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #19 - November 23, 2013, 05:39 AM
    Haven't you just made the argument that it is for competitive reasons? You have to be cut, otherwise no one will want you.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #20 - November 23, 2013, 05:45 AM
    Not competitive for the women advocating others to do it. There is no benefit to them if other women go and do it after heeding their advice unless they are the ones performing the procedure.
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #21 - November 23, 2013, 06:00 AM
    And I can see it being competitive on their part if they were the ones who started or are forerunners of the trend in those countries.  As far as I'm aware, FGM has already been largely practiced in the cultures that these women are promoting it are from. 

    As far as normal women doing it who are not being pressured or forced to by family, I can see it as being competitive.   
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #22 - November 23, 2013, 06:15 AM
    Are you taking into account tribal marriage?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #23 - November 23, 2013, 06:41 AM
    yeah, but a penny for your thoughts on how that would change any facet of my argument.. could stand to have my opinion changed
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #24 - November 23, 2013, 07:12 AM
    Quote from: movingfeet on November 23, 2013, 05:25 AM
    I do not think FGM is subconscious competition.
    The reason is not to exert control over another's sexuality.  If that were true, they would not promote it.

    Ok, so let me get this straight: are you claiming that removing a woman's capacity to enjoy sex (or at least making a serious attempt to remove it) is not an attempt to control her sexuality in any way?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #25 - November 23, 2013, 07:22 AM
    That is not what I said.  I am saying that that isn't their reasons for their actions.
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #26 - November 23, 2013, 07:27 AM
    Quote from: three on November 23, 2013, 05:09 AM
    Maybe it's just my country, rather than the planet. But I doubt it. I hate posting "proof" links. So why don't we quit. Every industry under the sun has been dominated by men.

    Ok, but given that there are plenty of female fashion designers, if they can't get recognition this would imply that the customers (who are women) are of the opinion that the work of female designers isn't worthy of their attention. So, if men do dominate the fashion industry, who is that really down to? My guess: probably the customers.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #27 - November 23, 2013, 07:28 AM
    Quote from: movingfeet on November 23, 2013, 07:22 AM
    That is not what I said.  I am saying that that isn't their reasons for their actions.

    Ok, so it is an attempt to control sexuality, but they call it something else? Is that what you mean?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #28 - November 23, 2013, 07:34 AM
    I mean that, they don't see it being that way or have any conscious understanding of that concept being in play at all in this situation. It's a practice that has been around for a long time and they honestly don't see anything wrong with it in any way..rather as the right thing for others to do. 
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • The Cold War Fought by Women for Sexual Selection
     Reply #29 - November 23, 2013, 07:45 AM
    Quote
    I mean that, they don't see it being that way or have any conscious understanding of that concept being in play at all in this situation.

    You do realise this is what I've been saying?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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