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Theme Changer

 Topic: Choice of Belief

 (Read 2977 times)
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  • Choice of Belief
     OP - November 22, 2013, 05:57 PM
    Do you think that belief is a choice? Do you think that you can choose what you are convinced of, such as being convinced that Islam is true? If not, then how is anything a choice in the first place? All common choices we make, such as deciding your career path or deciding which food you want to eat, are still based on reasons. When making decisions, we still consider competing reasons, and then act upon whatever reason convinces us the most. Does this mean that nothing is a choice? What is a choice anyways?
  • Choice of Belief
     Reply #1 - November 22, 2013, 06:35 PM
    Never mind. I think I confused the ability to make a choice with the ability to choose what you are convinced of.
  • Choice of Belief
     Reply #2 - November 22, 2013, 08:22 PM
    Belief is not a choice. Most "choices" we make are strictly biological or due to external influences on a person which effect biological mechanics. Choices are really a trick of the mind we believe we have control of but we do not. Someone like myself has been trained, external influence, to accept, convinced, a position based upon evidence for and against. So my "bar" for what convinces me is higher than someone not trained using the historical and scientific method. So I have been trained to uphold a certain criteria, a priori, before evaluating a claim. I was also indoctrinated into a religion at a young age I was told what I thought were facts from my parents, an external influence. I didn't valid these claims myself, I just accepted these facts based on an argument from authority. Parents are an authority figure so at this age I did not understand that neither parent was a valid authority. Between education and indoctrination humans are conditioned to accept different methods and criteria. So my "bar" or set of criteria was far lower than it is now.

    The trick of the mind with "choices" is we rationalize our choices after the fact. If someone presents a claim X almost all people will already formed an opinion beforehand. This opinion is based on priori criteria we already hold. Once evidence of X is evaluated using a proper method a person is convinced to hold a position of true or false. This new opinion is not a choice but rather we are convinced the evidence supports X or does not support X. Now if a person rejects a position which is well supported is this a choice? If a valid method is used the results will be the same. When someone ignores the results this is not due to a choice but a preconditioned priori which overrides the method used. Challenging these types of bias is why a method is used to evaluate a claim. Personal reasoning is flawed and has been for centuries. Logical and various scientific methods were developed to counter it. Again conditioning via education.

    Take a favorite food for example. Ask yourself why you like this food. You will find many reasons are biological and not choices. Taste, smell, touch, etc, are all based on biological inputs. You are using reason to establish why you like this food, you are not choosing to like this food. Apply the method to any other food.

    I think we are giving humanity far to much credit regarding the level of control we have over our minds. The biological brain has more control over our consciousness than vice-versa. Choice is the veil of illusion we to trick ourselves into believing we are above intelligent animals.

     I am a hard determinist.
  • Choice of Belief
     Reply #3 - November 22, 2013, 08:23 PM
    Also keep in mind religion's idea of choice is direct choice which mean a choice counter to everything you accept. Direct choice means you believe with 100% certainty that a red light is green without an internal or external influences; ie illness, disorders, etc. General choice is nothing like this.
  • Choice of Belief
     Reply #4 - November 23, 2013, 07:21 AM
    Does quantum mechanics disprove determinism?
  • Choice of Belief
     Reply #5 - November 23, 2013, 08:58 AM
    Can you think of an example of one thing I could choose to believe right now? One thing that I don't already believe that I could make a descision to believe.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Choice of Belief
     Reply #6 - November 23, 2013, 09:09 AM
    No, the laws of physics are a consistent model. Although predictability is not 100% accurate. Also no field can prove determinism which I accept. I think you are mixing up causation and determinism in this case. Also I think you took my statement beyond the use I had intended.
  • Choice of Belief
     Reply #7 - November 23, 2013, 10:20 AM
    Quote from: bogart on November 22, 2013, 08:22 PM
    Choice is the veil of illusion we to trick ourselves into believing we are above intelligent animals.


    I find that to be the most interesting statement in this thread. Requires more thought than I am willing to invest at this time of night, but it I don't think I completely agree.

    "The biological brain has more control over our consciousness than vice-versa."

    What is to say that they are not both the same thing? The consciousness can't exist without the physical brain and the realm of neuroscience is far from definitive at this point.  Looking at it that way, to say that we do not have choices and that it is mostly a biological response to internal and external stimuli is redundant.
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Choice of Belief
     Reply #8 - November 23, 2013, 12:06 PM
    Anyone for Isis?

     “Those visions made me realise that patriarchy had taken over religion, once the domain of matriarchs... and patriarchy had led to wars, greed and exploitation of the earth.”

    Olivia Robertson - an obituary.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/10468198/Olivia-Robertson-Obituary.html

    Edit: Another cracking quote from the same obit:

    'By coincidence, around the same time that Olivia had her realisation, her brother, Lawrence “Derry” Durdin-Robertson, “21st baron of Strathloch”, an ordained clergyman in the Church of Ireland, had also become convinced that God was a woman. An honourable man, he at once proffered his resignation to his bishop, who assured him that “there was no need”. '
  • Choice of Belief
     Reply #9 - November 23, 2013, 07:33 PM
    Quote from: movingfeet on November 23, 2013, 10:20 AM
    I find that to be the most interesting statement in this thread. Requires more thought than I am willing to invest at this time of night, but it I don't think I completely agree.

    "The biological brain has more control over our consciousness than vice-versa."

    What is to say that they are not both the same thing? The consciousness can't exist without the physical brain and the realm of neuroscience is far from definitive at this point.  Looking at it that way, to say that we do not have choices and that it is mostly a biological response to internal and external stimuli is redundant.


    I see the external influences such as the society one, for example, conditioning people to be a certain way. To accept or reject different concepts as "right" or "wrong". More basic lifeforms are also conditioned by their own environments be it at the individual level or colony level which I think plays out as a form of "society". Perhaps it is redundant to you in light, or lack of, information from neuroscience. However I see many of the same responses in humans mirror those within lower life. More complex responses from increasingly complex life forms. Granted we do not understand how the "mind" work in depth but that does not mean one should withhold their opinion. Even using our basic understanding we have developed medication for chemical imbalances to psychiatric methods. Although I concede it is only an opinion and not an absolute.

    "The biological brain has more control over our consciousness than vice-versa."

    This wasn't about the two are separate or that the consciousness does not depend on the brain. The point was that often our instincts override our conscious state. Rage or anger issues such as road rage. Flight or fight impulses. Our subconscious and dream-states. The capability to "bury" memories of tragic events or even positive events from our past.
  • Choice of Belief
     Reply #10 - November 23, 2013, 08:03 PM
    Thank you for your response. I agree with it. As for my reluctance to accept your statement on how humans differentiate themselves from other animals, it is mainly because I have only read or seen more superficial causes.  I wanted to think more on it because, perhaps, the underlying reason for those rationalized differentials was what you were saying to be.

    I think a large part of it is that. But, I just think humanity, aside from that, see animals as being less emotionally and intellectually complex than humans overall. They think that not only do animals blindly follow instinct, their range of emotions is limited to the most basic for survival.  But anyone that studies animals or has been around them for long periods of time know this to be wrong (as far as the emotions are concerned). A lot of recent studies into the matter also prove it to be wrong. 
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Choice of Belief
     Reply #11 - November 23, 2013, 10:46 PM
    The veil as I see it is due to the divine origin concepts of religion. Humans are special not due to our natural capabilities but rather created with purpose by a deity. By extend everything else was created for the purpose of supporting humanity. To sustain us. The universe is purposely made for just us in mind.
  • Choice of Belief
     Reply #12 - November 23, 2013, 11:10 PM
    Yeah.  That is one source.  The arrogance of religion and humanity tends to disturb me. 
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Choice of Belief
     Reply #13 - November 23, 2013, 11:35 PM
     Afro
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Choice of Belief
     Reply #14 - November 26, 2013, 05:39 AM
    Quote from: bogart on November 23, 2013, 09:09 AM
    No, the laws of physics are a consistent model. Although predictability is not 100% accurate. Also no field can prove determinism which I accept. I think you are mixing up causation and determinism in this case. Also I think you took my statement beyond the use I had intended.


    Yeah, I guess you're right. I probably mixed those terms up. Our brains seem as if they're just receivers of unconscious causes.
  • Choice of Belief
     Reply #15 - November 26, 2013, 05:40 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on November 23, 2013, 08:58 AM
    Can you think of an example of one thing I could choose to believe right now? One thing that I don't already believe that I could make a descision to believe.


    No, I honestly can't :/
  • Choice of Belief
     Reply #16 - November 26, 2013, 08:38 AM
    Quote from: kutta on November 26, 2013, 05:39 AM
    Yeah, I guess you're right. I probably mixed those terms up. Our brains seem as if they're just receivers of unconscious causes.


    It is very easy to mix up as determinism is based on causation be it in philosophy or physics. The butt of my argument is thus. Is what we see as freewill merely biological responses be it  conscious and unconscious reactions to stimulus. Free will could be merely the rationalization behind the choices we have already made not what makes the choices itself.

     
  • Choice of Belief
     Reply #17 - November 26, 2013, 08:44 AM
    That seems like the logical conclusion once someone thinks about it. The question that I find interesting is why people don't like seeing it that way.
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Choice of Belief
     Reply #18 - November 26, 2013, 09:23 AM
    FW is different in philosophy and theology, which further divides FW. FW in philosophy is about what can I do, why can I do it. Theology "muddies the water" by tossing God into the mix along with Gods ability to influence the world, our FW and his own FW. There are plenty of reason be it from a number of different approaches. The best answer I can give you is people do not agree as we have no proven answer. I doubt it will ever be answered.
  • Choice of Belief
     Reply #19 - November 26, 2013, 09:37 AM
    I understand that. I guess I need to word it better. Why do humans feel the need to have some sort of concept of free will in the first place?

    Edit. I reread what you said I got it. My mind is a bit slow from lack of sleep.

    Another question that was in the back of my mind during earlier discourse in the thread which is related to the above question, why do humans feel the need for a higher purpose so much that they would fabricate one?
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Choice of Belief
     Reply #20 - November 27, 2013, 05:19 PM
    I define choice as the ability to think about and consider and alternative option. For thosr who claim choice yet would never consider alternatives, not choice... for tjose never exposed to other options not choice.
    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
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