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 Topic: morality without religion

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  • morality without religion
     OP - December 02, 2013, 03:23 PM
    Since I was braught up in a non-religious home and in one of the worlds most secular nations, I have never had problems with imagining morality and a code of conduct that does not need god or threath of hellfire. My partner on the other hand does not. When discussing these issues with him he often says that no morality that is good can exist without god. Such morality is arbitrary. What do you guys think about these issues? It would be interesting to hear your opinions on this.

    For me, even Islamic morality is often "arbitrary". Naskh wa mansookh is the perfect example of this. Does god change his mind? Or the fact that there is always one or two exceptions to the rule. Why is that more legitimate than using intelect, empirism and reason to come to the most beneficial conclusion? I am convinced that I was/became/am a good person even without Islam. I even think that I am a better person without Islam.

    I am slowly trying to introduce these topics with my husband, and I have noticed that from time to time he finds himself in a moment of weakness or doubt when I can see that he starts thinking. And I mean really thinking. However, those are rare and I don't want to push my luck by revealing too much about my own disbelief. He already has his doubts due to some arguments and duscussions we've had in the past.

    He is fundamentalist in his thinking and really believes in god. But he is not so good at implementing the REAL salafi lifestyle, especially with me slowly introducing "haram" elements (Can you imagine that he asked me if I wanted to listen to music so he could see me dance! All ex-salafis understand why that's a big deal. I chickened out because I got paranoid thinking it was a test of some kind). Because of that, I have hopes that perhaps he is able to change. Perhaps by focusing on issues that discredits allahs existence, I can make him join the kufr team.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • morality without religion
     Reply #1 - December 02, 2013, 03:59 PM
    Are things good because they are or because the gods say so?
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • morality without religion
     Reply #2 - December 02, 2013, 04:09 PM
    The problem with Islamic morality is that it's immoral. It's not even the ambiguous grey-area kind of immorality either. It's the rape children, rape slaves, kill dissenters, beat wives, mutilate thieves kind of immorality. Utter moral depravity.

    Who was it who said that if there is no God, everything is permitted? He should have said that if there is God, then all of the worst evils are permitted. Prescribed.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • morality without religion
     Reply #3 - December 02, 2013, 04:56 PM
    Quote from: moi on December 02, 2013, 03:59 PM
    Are things good because they are or because the gods say so?


    His argument would be that god knows best and as the creator he possesses understanding and knowledge we do not. The usual bs theists usually say. The tricky part is that he justifies these sick practicec by saying if god permitted them, then it's good who is he to say otherwise. That is the fundamentalist in him speaking.

    But on the other hand he watches Game of thrones with me, asked me if I was bi-sexual (do I give off bi-vibes?), isn't strict with music since I have gradually "de-tabooed" it, has engaged in "haram" sexy stuff with me on my suggestion and  does a lot of other stuff that would be deemed impermissable. Maybe because he has "low iman" but hey, he still does it in spite of his "idealistic" ideas about what a good Muslim life is all about. We live a normal, good life togethet which shows him that you don't have to follow Islamic morality to be "good". I don't know if he gets that last part though...
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • morality without religion
     Reply #4 - December 02, 2013, 05:25 PM
    I don't think the notion of morality, or at least how we understand it today, even exists in Islam. In Islam, whatever God commands is moral and whatever God commands not to do is immoral. It's as simple as that. All other reasons are ignored. If an "Islamic morality" doesn't depend on the notion of suffering or reason, then why call it morality?
  • morality without religion
     Reply #5 - December 02, 2013, 05:46 PM
    Quote from: kutta on December 02, 2013, 05:25 PM
    If an "Islamic morality" doesn't depend on the notion of suffering or reason, then why call it morality?


    Then what should it be called?
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • morality without religion
     Reply #6 - December 02, 2013, 06:04 PM
    Religion? Superstition?
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • morality without religion
     Reply #7 - December 02, 2013, 06:17 PM
    Quote from: Cornflower on December 02, 2013, 05:46 PM
    Then what should it be called?


    It is simply an act of obeying God. This is why I think it is fruitless to discuss "Islamic morality" with a Muslim. It is a bit like arguing about how it is evil for God to tell people to pray five times a day, which is just another command of God that Muslims obey.
  • morality without religion
     Reply #8 - December 02, 2013, 06:26 PM
    You are absolutely right, which is kinda depressing. You obey a god that is supposedly divine and unique, but is suspiciously human in nature, and therefore you find nothing wrong with  slavery, rape, mysogyny or fascism... "allahu alam". I hate that sentence, it takes away all personal responsibility.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • morality without religion
     Reply #9 - December 02, 2013, 07:54 PM
    Quote from: Cornflower on December 02, 2013, 03:23 PM

    ....morality without religion.....

     ........... Islamic morality ........

    Cornflower opens a can of warms of religions..

    Before going to " ..morality without religion..."., the first thing we need to answer is " Did religions really create Morality?"

    But Let me put these tubes here..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5dQDpmUP58

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DjmoM1OlpI

     
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • morality without religion
     Reply #10 - December 02, 2013, 08:15 PM
    Good question, yeez. I am partial to the idea that morality existed without religion, but religion was created to enforce it.
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Re: morality without religion
     Reply #11 - December 02, 2013, 09:00 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on December 02, 2013, 04:09 PM
    Who was it who said that if there is no God, everything is permitted? He should have said that if there is God, then all of the worst evils are permitted. Prescribed.


    Dostoevsky in his short story Bobok.

    Quote from: Cornflower on December 02, 2013, 03:23 PM
    For me, even Islamic morality is often "arbitrary". Naskh wa mansookh is the perfect example of this.


    No it isn't, because morality cannot possibly exist within Islam — even the depravity that Ishina speaks of.

    Quote from: Cornflower on December 02, 2013, 03:23 PM
    Does god change his mind?

    No, just out and out hard determinism/qadr.

    Quote from: Cornflower on December 02, 2013, 03:23 PM
    Or the fact that there is always one or two exceptions to the rule. Why is that more legitimate than using intelect, empirism and reason to come to the most beneficial conclusion? I am convinced that I was/became/am a good person even without Islam. I even think that I am a better person without Islam.


    True morality (of the utilitarian kind, but not Millite) can only exist within atheism. For islam to be moral is a negative contradiction.
    Quote from: Cornflower on December 02, 2013, 03:23 PM
    I am slowly trying to introduce these topics with my husband, and I have noticed that from time to time he finds himself in a moment of weakness or doubt when I can see that he starts thinking. And I mean really thinking. However, those are rare and I don't want to push my luck by revealing too much about my own disbelief. He already has his doubts due to some arguments and duscussions we've had in the past.

    He is fundamentalist in his thinking and really believes in god. But he is not so good at implementing the REAL salafi lifestyle, especially with me slowly introducing "haram" elements (Can you imagine that he asked me if I wanted to listen to music so he could see me dance! All ex-salafis understand why that's a big deal. I chickened out because I got paranoid thinking it was a test of some kind). Because of that, I have hopes that perhaps he is able to change. Perhaps by focusing on issues that discredits allahs existence, I can make him join the kufr team.

    I wouldn't bet too heavily on it. Still, promising first step.
  • morality without religion
     Reply #12 - December 02, 2013, 09:27 PM
    Other civilizations and religions have created a set of morale code long before Islam and long after Islam. When non-Abrahamic religions developed the same kinds of morale codes, face the same issues and support the same flawed concepts such as slavery the argument becomes one of Deism not Theism
  • morality without religion
     Reply #13 - December 02, 2013, 10:24 PM
    I don't mean to stereo-type but is your husband north African? I ask because they often have a strict view but in action some can be reasonably relaxed, and they like to watch their women dance. The strict ones will even break out the duff to get their wife belly dancing lol.
    "Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
  • morality without religion
     Reply #14 - December 02, 2013, 10:53 PM
    And you know this qaisai Jibbsy?
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • morality without religion
     Reply #15 - December 02, 2013, 11:43 PM
    Quote from: Cornflower on December 02, 2013, 03:23 PM
    he often says that no morality that is good can exist without god.

    I am convinced that I was/became/am a good person even without Islam. I even think that I am a better person without Islam.

    I am slowly trying to introduce these topics with my husband, and I have noticed that from time to time he finds himself in a moment of weakness or doubt


    5:38

    [As for] the thief, the male and the female, amputate their hands in recompense for what they committed as a deterrent [punishment] from Allah . And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.
    Ask him if this is moral.
  • morality without religion
     Reply #16 - December 03, 2013, 12:12 AM
    I've listened to Dawkins on morality before and can only whole heartedly agree with him. Fundamentalists often have a very narrow black and white perspective on life and the world so it's hard to argue when the same argument is used "it says so in the quran, allah knows best".
    By the way, I accidently "disbelieved" in an ayah today during a discussion and had to talk my way out of it to avoid an argument. He seemed REALLY bothered by it but didn't continue the discussion. Awkward...

    And @Jibbs, no he is not from N. Africa  Tongue
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • morality without religion
     Reply #17 - December 03, 2013, 12:22 AM
    Quote from: movingfeet on December 02, 2013, 08:15 PM
    ............ I am partial to the idea that morality existed without religion,

    On that note., the book of Christopher Boehm "Moral origins evolution of virtue altruism and shame "



    is a great book to read.. Here is bit of excerpts from it..

    Quote
    but religion was created to enforce it.

    Well religions were never created to enforce Morals in Human societies But Religions were created by some men to enforce their rules  & control other men and societies around them. 
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • morality without religion
     Reply #18 - December 03, 2013, 12:26 AM
    Quote from: Cornflower on December 03, 2013, 12:12 AM
    And @Jibbs, no he is not from N. Africa  Tongue

    well if he is not from North Africa then he must understand this   ..lol..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: morality without religion
     Reply #19 - December 03, 2013, 02:27 AM
    Quote from: Cornflower on December 03, 2013, 12:12 AM
    I've listened to Dawkins on morality before and can only whole heartedly agree with him. Fundamentalists often have a very narrow black and white perspective on life and the world so it's hard to argue when the same argument is used "it says so in the quran, allah knows best".
    By the way, I accidently "disbelieved" in an ayah today during a discussion and had to talk my way out of it to avoid an argument. He seemed REALLY bothered by it but didn't continue the discussion. Awkward...



    Dawkins' moral arguments are philosophically unsound. I actually don't blame muslims for this one.

    Of course, if the pigheaded ulama ever offered anything sophisticated I may be inclined to give Islam another chance.

    Islamic postmodernists are dead, islamic Marxists, doubly so, islamic liberation theologists a la. Shariati. Well. probably intentionally shot themselves after the Iranian revolution.

    Good lord, are there still Red Shia about? Would make for interesting conversation, no doubt.
  • morality without religion
     Reply #20 - December 03, 2013, 02:46 AM
    How about this. If there is no god then then there is morality because morality exists. If there is no morality without god then whether or not you believe in god doesn't change the fact god gives morality, as those who don't believe in god also have a sense of morality. So ultimately if you accept atheists and the non religious have a conscience and a sense of right and wrong, even if you don't agree with them it doesn't make a difference. Why? Because it still exists.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • morality without religion
     Reply #21 - December 03, 2013, 03:08 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on December 02, 2013, 04:09 PM
    The problem with Islamic morality is that it's immoral. It's not even the ambiguous grey-area kind of immorality either. It's the rape children, rape slaves, kill dissenters, beat wives, mutilate thieves kind of immorality. Utter moral depravity.

    Who was it who said that if there is no God, everything is permitted? He should have said that if there is God, then all of the worst evils are permitted. Prescribed.


    Perfectly said.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • morality without religion
     Reply #22 - December 03, 2013, 03:46 AM
    Funny I should come across this image today:

    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • morality without religion
     Reply #23 - December 03, 2013, 03:49 AM
     Cheesy
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • morality without religion
     Reply #24 - December 03, 2013, 04:00 AM
    Quote from: schizo on December 03, 2013, 02:27 AM
    Dawkins' moral arguments are philosophically unsound.


    Ive never heard Dawkins make a thoughtful argument for morality. Usually his standard speech is against religion and morality based on religion or from a deity directly through the word of God. He is also very quick to mix up morality in religion and morality from a God. Not all codes of morality are directly from God as is. Often these codes evolve from guidelines of God's word but are created by men following an example. When one does not differentiate between these sources the argument begins to fall apart.
  • morality without religion
     Reply #25 - December 03, 2013, 05:41 AM
    Just to expand on what I said before, does your husband acknowledge that people who don't believe in god can be good people?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • morality without religion
     Reply #26 - December 03, 2013, 09:25 AM
    Quote from: schizo on December 03, 2013, 02:27 AM
    Dawkins' moral arguments are philosophically unsound. I actually don't blame muslims for this one.


    Perhaps, but I am not saying that Dawkins provides that. What he does is to simply refute tha claim that all morality without god is arbitrary or "insound", which I agee with is simply not true. Hsven't read his book but heard some criticism. Maybe I'll read it someday.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • morality without religion
     Reply #27 - December 03, 2013, 09:38 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on December 03, 2013, 05:41 AM
    Just to expand on what I said before, does your husband acknowledge that people who don't believe in god can be good people?


    Hard to say. He views them as generally immoral and "selfish". No act of goodness can be really good if you're a disbeliever. He has a very harsh  black and white world view. To put it simply, he is not the "philosophical" guy. I don't think he spends any amount of time thinking about this.

    I've noticed that he gets the Islamic motivation mostly from political issues. He has always felt discriminated, isolated and not accepted by the society. So Islam gives him purpose and an ideology to hold on to. So verses as 2:120 or verse "they (ahl al kitab) are awliyah" to each other against Muslims just enforces it. The spiritual conviction is rather fragile. When I started ask difficult philosophical questions about god, I caused major shubuhaat for him. So of course he got upset and asked how I could not "know" this after years spending studying the religion.... maybe because islam doesn't provide any good answersto these questions....
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • morality without religion
     Reply #28 - December 03, 2013, 07:03 PM
    Quote from: Jedi on December 02, 2013, 10:53 PM
    And you know this qaisai Jibbsy?


    Observation, experience, married friends experiences :/ how else do stereotypes form?
    "Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
  • morality without religion
     Reply #29 - December 03, 2013, 07:40 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on December 03, 2013, 12:26 AM
    well if he is not from North Africa then he must understand this   ..lol..


    Hhhhh nope, he's from the Middle East :-)
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
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