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 Topic: Why atheists fail to persuade theists

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  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #150 - December 25, 2013, 03:44 AM
    Just found this.

    Quote
    Scientism

    Unlike the use of the scientific method as only one mode of reaching knowledge, scientism claims that science alone can render truth about the world and reality. Scientism's single-minded adherence to only the empirical, or testable, makes it a strictly scientifc worldview, in much the same way that a Protestant fundamentalism that rejects science can be seen as a strictly religious worldview. Scientism sees it necessary to do away with most, if not all, metaphysical, philosophical, and religious claims, as the truths they proclaim cannot be apprehended by the scientific method. In essence, scientism sees science as the absolute and only justifiable access to the truth.


    http://www.pbs.org/faithandreason/gengloss/sciism-body.html
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #151 - December 25, 2013, 04:34 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on December 25, 2013, 03:44 AM
    Just found this.

    http://www.pbs.org/faithandreason/gengloss/sciism-body.html


    I was reading this.
    In the definition it uses an example of believing in a spirit or soul. I suspect it was referring to the belief that there is a spirit or soul that survives the body at death. There has not been any reputable scientific evidence as yet that I know of to prove such an occurrence.  What though if a persons religious belief didn't include a belief in a spirit or soul that survives the body at death but as some English-language Bibles states "the man became a living soul".  Which seems more accurate to fact. Hummm...when a person has the breath of life they are a live. When they are no longer breathing, when the breath of life leaves them they are dead. They turn back into dust (decompose) and no longer have any thoughts. (Ecclesiastes 9:5).
    Just a thought.
    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #152 - December 25, 2013, 05:17 AM
    That would be geist, yes.

    Although as a dialectical materialist I tend to perceive the manifestation of geist on the level of the collective and not the individual. E: neuronal processes, social, psychological and environmental factors determine individuals who are at once united and discombobulated — and it is the unification that fashions a primitive geist (or asabiyya) that seeps into the individuated physical actions of the monad which constitutes itself to be part of a tribal nomadic totality where geist sublimely cognises itself.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #153 - December 25, 2013, 06:33 AM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on December 24, 2013, 02:31 PM
    Evidently? How do you know that? Did your feelings tell you? Or do you have an argument for your claim?

    The scientific method works like this:

    (1) (a) Create a testable theory. (b) Design an experiment that could refute it.

    (2) (a) Run the experiment and collect the result. (b) Interpret the result.

    If (2b) rules out the theory, then go back to (1a) and create another testable theory. One way to create another testable theory is to take the refuted one and change a part of it so that the new version doesn’t contradict the new evidence.

    Note that every step is fallible. So you want to critically question every step. So for (2a), that means that the experiment is repeated many times and by many people.


    Whatever.
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #154 - December 25, 2013, 06:47 AM
    Np it wouldn't be Geist at all at least not what Wikipedia says about it..
    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #155 - December 25, 2013, 02:03 PM
    Quote from: movingfeet on December 25, 2013, 06:33 AM
    Whatever.

      Cheesy   Hu!   whatever?? just whatever??

     you are bad..bad.. person movingfeet.   RamiRustom is putting so much of his time and writing so many pages as response  and you  just say.. "whatever??" .,  

     very bad... very very bad..

    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year for both of you guys..
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #156 - December 25, 2013, 02:07 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on December 25, 2013, 03:43 AM
    Maybe I'm just not familiar enough with the term (this is quite possible) but it seems to me to be a very vague word used mostly by creationists in an attempt to discredit. It comes across as more of a boo-word than a label for any coherent doctrine and I've yet to see anything other than the failure of 'scientism' critics to give examples of the sin.

    The impression I get is of those Americans who insist belief in evolution and man made climate change is a religion. And of course, atheism, the total lack of religion, is a religion. Roll Eyes

    Am I wrong?


    Are you asking me if you're wrong about how people use the word? I'm sure people use the word wrong a lot.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #157 - December 25, 2013, 02:16 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on December 25, 2013, 03:44 AM
    Just found this.

    Quote
    Scientism

    Unlike the use of the scientific method as only one mode of reaching knowledge, scientism claims that science alone can render truth about the world and reality. Scientism's single-minded adherence to only the empirical, or testable, makes it a strictly scientifc worldview, in much the same way that a Protestant fundamentalism that rejects science can be seen as a strictly religious worldview. Scientism sees it necessary to do away with most, if not all, metaphysical, philosophical, and religious claims, as the truths they proclaim cannot be apprehended by the scientific method. In essence, scientism sees science as the absolute and only justifiable access to the truth.


    http://www.pbs.org/faithandreason/gengloss/sciism-body.html


    Hmm. That gives a different definition than I gave. In any case, I disagree with THEIR scientism also.

    To clarify, science is not the only way to determine the truth.

    If I have a non-scientific idea, and if there are no criticisms of my idea to my knowledge, then my idea is unrefuted, and I will act on my idea.

    Btw, everybody already does this. All of us have non-scientific ideas in our minds, and all of us act on these ideas, which raises the question: Why are we doing that? It's because that's the best knowledge we have to date, and we will act on our best knowledge. Is that knowledge flawed? Yes. Is that knowledge useless? No.


    Now to get back to what I was saying about scientism, it is true that some scientists claiming to be doing science aren't actually doing the scientific method. So it's important to make sure that critically question any science claims by looking up the paper to search for what the scientific theory is, and how they tested it. And this is just a first test to declare it to be scientific.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #158 - December 25, 2013, 02:17 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on December 25, 2013, 02:03 PM
     Cheesy   Hu!   whatever?? just whatever??

     you are bad..bad.. person movingfeet.   RamiRustom is putting so much of his time and writing so many pages as response  and you  just say.. "whatever??" .,  

     very bad... very very bad..

    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year for both of you guys..
    yeezevee

    I suspect he said 'whatever' because he didn't like that I said that his feelings told him that I don't understand the scientific method, and because it was a means to end the discussion. What I don't understand is why he didn't just not reply at all. That would have worked the same. Unless he wanted me to know that he "whatever"-ed in response to my reply to him.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #159 - December 25, 2013, 02:18 PM
    Quote from: movingfeet on December 25, 2013, 06:33 AM
    Whatever.

    And for us thick kids at the back...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO7WNsTYOSs

  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #160 - December 25, 2013, 02:22 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on December 25, 2013, 02:17 PM
    I suspect he said 'whatever' because he didn't like that I said that his feelings told him that I don't understand the scientific method, and because it was a means to end the discussion. What I don't understand is why he didn't just not reply at all. That would have worked the same. Unless he wanted me to know that he "whatever"-ed in response to my reply to him.


    Stop calling me a him. It's insulting. It doesn't matter if you understand my response or not. Free speech, remember? I can respond however I want on this forum.
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #161 - December 25, 2013, 02:26 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on December 25, 2013, 02:17 PM
    I suspect he said 'whatever'
    ........................

    Hello  Rami_R ., just to  let you know that movingfeet is "She" ., May be you didn't know ., that is OK..
     
    Please continue....


     
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #162 - December 25, 2013, 02:27 PM
    Quote from: David on December 25, 2013, 02:18 PM
    And for us thick kids at the back...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO7WNsTYOSs




     Afro
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #163 - December 25, 2013, 02:34 PM
    Quote from: movingfeet on December 25, 2013, 02:22 PM
    Stop calling me a him. It's insulting. It doesn't matter if you understand my response or not. Free speech, remember? I can respond however I want on this forum.

    If you want people to know you are a women, then you should make a name that makes that clear. Since you didn't pick a name like that, I'm going to choose he. I'm not going to expend energy to figure out whether you have a dick or a vagina. It doesn't matter to me.

    So it's ridiculous for you to feel insulted.


    Quote from: movingfeet on December 25, 2013, 02:22 PM
    It doesn't matter if you understand my response or not. Free speech, remember? I can respond however I want on this forum.

    Why are you talking about free speech? I didn't say that you can't talk here.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #164 - December 25, 2013, 02:39 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on December 25, 2013, 02:34 PM
    ....Since you didn't pick a name like that, I'm going to choose he. I'm not going to expend energy to figure out whether you have a dick or a vagina. It doesn't matter to me.

    So it's ridiculous for you to feel insulted.
     

    Hi Rustom., you sound very angry., cool down a bit., Now you know movingfeet is "She"..

    So let us not  expend energy on that "She/he" dick/vagina.. etc..etc.. Those words are not needed friend., Take it easy..

     Let us move onto the subject

    with best wishes
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #165 - December 25, 2013, 02:41 PM
    What an asshole thing to say. Automatically assuming someone is a "he" is fucking ridiculous. If you're not sure, you use gender neutral words instead of being a dick about it. Telling me that I should have a username that reflects my sex is ludicrous.

    The whole notion that everyone is a "he" automatically by default is incredibly sexist and backward.

    You start a thread about philosophical concepts then when people disagree with you, you personally attack them by saying that they are not logically making their decisions. That it's because of "feelings" You did that to Ishina and myself. You expect anyone to even take you seriously in a discussion when your best comeback is to demean the poster's cognitive abilities?
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #166 - December 25, 2013, 02:43 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on December 25, 2013, 02:16 PM


    To clarify, science is not the only way to determine the truth.

    If I have a non-scientific idea, and if there are no criticisms of my idea to my knowledge, then my idea is unrefuted, and I will act on my idea.

    Btw, everybody already does this. All of us have non-scientific ideas in our minds, and all of us act on these ideas, which raises the question: Why are we doing that? It's because that's the best knowledge we have to date, and we will act on our best knowledge. Is that knowledge flawed? Yes. Is that knowledge useless? No.



    Knowledge if different to ideas. I can and do reflect on my own ideas and don't automatically act on them. I have to disagree with this, unless I'm misunderstanding you?

    Quote from: RamiRustom on December 25, 2013, 02:16 PM
    Now to get back to what I was saying about scientism, it is true that some scientists claiming to be doing science aren't actually doing the scientific method. So it's important to make sure that critically question any science claims by looking up the paper to search for what the scientific theory is, and how they tested it. And this is just a first test to declare it to be scientific.


    For example?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #167 - December 25, 2013, 03:03 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on December 25, 2013, 02:39 PM
    Hi Rustom., you sound very angry., cool down a bit., Now you know movingfeet is "She"..

    So let us not  expend energy on that "She/he" dick/vagina.. etc..etc.. Those words are not needed friend., Take it easy..

     Let us move onto the subject

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    lol, you misinterpret me. not angry at all.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #168 - December 25, 2013, 03:07 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on December 25, 2013, 03:03 PM
    lol, you misinterpret me. not angry at all.

    That is possible., I am glad to know that Rami_R
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #169 - December 25, 2013, 03:08 PM
    Quote from: movingfeet on December 25, 2013, 02:41 PM
    What an asshole thing to say. Automatically assuming someone is a "he" is fucking ridiculous.

    I didn't assume. I just didn't care whether or not you're a man.

    Why is it an asshole thing to say?

    Quote from: movingfeet on December 25, 2013, 02:41 PM
    If you're not sure, you use gender neutral words instead of being a dick about it. Telling me that I should have a username that reflects my sex is ludicrous.

    I didn't tell you that you should make a username that reflects your sex.

    I said that IF you want me to know your sex, THEN you should make a name that reflects your sex.

    Quote from: movingfeet on December 25, 2013, 02:41 PM
    The whole notion that everyone is a "he" automatically by default is incredibly sexist and backward.

    So if I dont know your sex, I should use what? "S/he" or "she/he"?

    Its not worth it. easier to write 'he'.

    Quote from: movingfeet on December 25, 2013, 02:41 PM
    You start a thread about philosophical concepts then when people disagree with you, you personally attack them by saying that they are not logically making their decisions. That it's because of "feelings" You did that to Ishina and myself. You expect anyone to even take you seriously in a discussion when your best comeback is to demean the poster's cognitive abilities?

    You're wrong. I did not personally attack anyone.

    If you don't have an argument for your claim, then the reason you believe the claim is that you felt it. Actually there is another possibility, that you assumed it and didn't realize it.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #170 - December 25, 2013, 03:10 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on December 25, 2013, 02:43 PM
    Knowledge if different to ideas. I can and do reflect on my own ideas and don't automatically act on them. I have to disagree with this, unless I'm misunderstanding you?

    I think you misunderstood. I definitely critically question my ideas. But when I'm done questioning, and if I don't have any criticisms of the idea, then it's unrefuted, and I act on it.

    How is knowledge different than ideas?
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #171 - December 25, 2013, 03:14 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on December 25, 2013, 03:08 PM

    So if I dont know your sex, I should use what? "S/he" or "she/he"?

    Its not worth it. easier to write 'he'.

    Ha!.. Thank you Rami., reading that light bulb turned on in my brain.,  Could that be the reason why RASCALS use "He"  to Allah/God,   the  male dick head  Rami?  Or do you think there is some other reason??  

    well common answer QSE., Quantized Super Electron.,  damn that could be the reason behind these copper based high temperature super conductors. I am missing my friend KingTut in this forum
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #172 - December 25, 2013, 03:18 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on December 25, 2013, 02:43 PM
    Quote
    Now to get back to what I was saying about scientism, it is true that some scientists claiming to be doing science aren't actually doing the scientific method. So it's important to make sure that critically question any science claims by looking up the paper to search for what the scientific theory is, and how they tested it. And this is just a first test to declare it to be scientific.

    For example?

    Some people claiming to do science are doing this:

    They sift through data looking for correlations. When they find a correlation, then they declare a cause. The declaration is in the form of a theory of the causal relationship.

    Then they try to collect more data, often from old studies rather than new ones. And what they are trying to do is to find data that contradicts the theory (of the causal relationship).

    So there is no science being done here. They aren't doing the scientific method. They aren't creating a theory and then testing it.

    One philosophical mistake they are making is assuming that correlation means causation. It's false logic.

    Some people understand that correlation does not mean causation, but then they claim that if the correlation is statistically strong enough, then there is a higher probability that there is a causation. But this is false logic too.

    Probability only works for physical events. It's incorrect to use probabilities for theories.

    A theory is either true or false. It doesn't make sense to talk about the probability of a theory being true. (If you'd like an explanation for this, let me know.)
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #173 - December 25, 2013, 03:22 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on December 25, 2013, 03:14 PM
    Ha!.. Thank you Rami., reading that light bulb turned on in my brain.,  Could that be the reason why RASCALS use "He"  to Allah/God,   the  male dick head  Rami?  Or do you think there is some other reason??  

    well common answer QSE., Quantized Super Electron.,  damn that could be the reason behind these copper based high temperature super conductors. I am missing my friend KingTut in this forum

    I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you asking me why our language is sexist?

    Consider arabic. It's way more sexist than english. Consider the word "they". If there are 1,000,000 vaginas, and one dick, the correct grammar, which is still used today, is to use the male version of the word they. What do you think about that?
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #174 - December 25, 2013, 03:23 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on December 25, 2013, 03:10 PM
    I think you misunderstood. I definitely critically question my ideas. But when I'm done questioning, and if I don't have any criticisms of the idea, then it's unrefuted, and I act on it.

    How is knowledge different than ideas?


    Knowledge is facts, information, and skills acquired through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.
    "A thirst for knowledge"


    Synonyms: understanding, comprehension, grasp, grip, command, mastery, apprehension;

    "They did it without his knowledge".

    An idea is a thought or suggestion as to a possible course of action.
    "recently, the idea of linking pay to performance has caught on"

    Synonyms: plan, design, scheme, project, proposal, proposition, suggestion, recommendation, aim, intention, objective, object, purpose, end, goal, target

    I can't believe I have to explain the difference between knowledge and idea.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #175 - December 25, 2013, 03:25 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on December 25, 2013, 03:18 PM
    For example?

    Some people claiming to do science are doing this:

    They sift through data looking for correlations. When they find a correlation, then they declare a cause. The declaration is in the form of a theory of the causal relationship.

    Then they try to collect more data, often from old studies rather than new ones. And what they are trying to do is to find data that contradicts the theory (of the causal relationship).

    So there is no science being done here. They aren't doing the scientific method. They aren't created a theory and then testing it.

    One philosophical mistake they are making is assuming that correlation means causation. It's false logic.

    Some people understand that correlation does not mean causation, but then they claim that if the correlation is statistically strong enough, then there is a higher probability that there is a causation. But this is false logic too.

    Probability only works for physical events. It's incorrect to use probabilities for theories.

    A theory is either true or false. It doesn't make sense to talk about the probability of a theory being true. (If you'd like an explanation for this, let me know.)


    I'm asking for actual examples of it.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #176 - December 25, 2013, 03:28 PM
    Quote
    An idea is a thought or suggestion as to a possible course of action.
    "recently, the idea of linking pay to performance has caught on"


    That definition of "idea" doesn't make sense.

    I have the idea that *knowledge is created by guesses and criticism*.

    Do you agree that this is an idea?

    Do you agree that my idea does not fit your definition of idea?


    Quote
    I can't believe I have to explain the difference between knowledge and idea.


    Can you believe that you might be wrong? Or do you think you are infallible?
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #177 - December 25, 2013, 03:31 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on December 25, 2013, 03:25 PM
    I'm asking for actual examples of it.

    Ok. I wrote a science article criticizing an example of stuff claiming to be science but doesn't use the scientific method.

    _Why the gender gap on physics assessments_
    http://ramisciencetech.blogspot.com/2013/11/why-gender-gap-on-physics-assessments.html
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #178 - December 25, 2013, 03:36 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on December 25, 2013, 03:22 PM
    I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you asking me why our language is sexist?

    Consider arabic. It's way more sexist than english. Consider the word "they". If there are 1,000,000 vaginas, and one dick, the correct grammar, which is still used today, is to use the male version of the word they. What do you think about that?

    no...No,   I was commenting/thinking..,   why many cultures use/used/represent "god "  as "HE"..  

    your words.."Its not worth it. easier to write 'he'."  appears to have an answer for that question..  any way don't worry about that..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #179 - December 25, 2013, 03:42 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on December 25, 2013, 03:28 PM
    Can you believe that you might be wrong? Or do you think you are infallible?


    It's the actual definition. If you mean something other than what the word actually means then confusion will follow.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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