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Theme Changer

 Topic: Atheist rituals

 (Read 9762 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Atheist rituals
     OP - December 27, 2013, 10:41 PM

    So I was reading this thread, Atheists take part in many rituals that originate or are influenced by religion, the latest being Christmas.
    Do you think its fine to do so, a lot of the time, they use the same ritual but try to eliminate some of the religious aspects or do you think they should create their own non religious rituals. Do you then think Athiests may be falling into Hamza Tzorztis' concept that Atheism is a new belief religion in its self.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/27/why-non-believers-need-rituals-atheists?CMP=fb_gu

    Have a gander... what do you think?

    "Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
  • Atheist rituals
     Reply #1 - December 27, 2013, 10:49 PM

    I think religions should be the ones to create their own original celebrations instead of assimilating the celebrations they stole from conquered people.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Atheist rituals
     Reply #2 - December 27, 2013, 11:05 PM

    There's confusion in using the terms "Religion" and "Belief".
    Religion is a set of beliefs,.a vast organized structure.
    If you are an Atheist, it doesn't necessarily mean that you will have the same beliefs as many others Atheists.
    Anyway , lots of confusion.
  • Atheist rituals
     Reply #3 - December 27, 2013, 11:26 PM

    Calling atheism a religion should be classed as a crime against language.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Atheist rituals
     Reply #4 - December 27, 2013, 11:39 PM

    From a sociological standpoint (in fact most social scientists will agree) rituals and rites preceeded the formation of what we would recognise as religion. For example, belief in spirits, congregating in a certain place, 'praying', group building exercises, war dances, face paints, insignia, totemism, blessing hollowed ground and burial of the dead has been observed in all cultures devoid of religion (in the sense of an overarching name applied to a set of principles and behaviour mechanisms) and belief in a God (from which rules and regulations are derived). See Pascal Boyers works as a starting point.

    Most of the rites and rituals are socially constructed from within the social system. It is only when society became more complex, population grew that civillisations emerge (population of over 10,00 according to some anthropologists) do we see these rite and rituals codified into a common, unified practise and the emrgence of a 'God' and a 'God representative on Earth' i.e. king. The transition from flexible rites and rituals to a rigid set of rites and rituals emerged (who knows when) independently in Mesopotamia, Mesoamerica and ancient Egypt (who got there first?). It is a fascinating area of study.

    But...and this relates to your OP Inzy...those who wish to say that atheism is like a religion are grasping at straws. There are several types of religion:

    1) Formal, instiutionalised religion e.g. Islam, Christianity. There is a clear hierarchy, claims of divine revelation, a Holy Book, a sacred place for pilgrimage, claims of miracles and they are either hostile to outsiders or they are world affirming. There are other criteria peculiar to this but a belief in the SUPERNATURAL is paramount.

    2) Civil 'religion' (Steve Bruce explains...) society functions at times like a religion e.g. 'Americanism'. With sacred symbols of The Flag, The Declaration of Independence and that annoying U.S. patriotic song that begins with 'Oh say can you see...' The civil 'religion' is clutching at straws and has been criticised for this is not a new phenomenon. However, psotmodernists argue that traditional manifestation of 'religion' is moving towards this secular 'civil' religion type e.g. Christmas to 'Happy Winter Holidays'.

    3) 'pick and mix society' or 'New Age mysticism' in which traditional boundaries have collapsed and people can pick and choose which ever ideology they like. Their 'saints' and 'books' are highly regarded but not sacrosanct. There are no punitive punishments for abandoning beliefs, there are no unquestionable authorities, no claims of divine inspiration are made and the rules, roles, rites and rituals are flexible.

    Obciously certain sects are world rejecting and hostile to outsiders and may traipse on the boundary between 'religion' and 'ideological group/spiritual movement' e.g. Aum Shinrikyo or the Sai Baba cult.

    In short, no, atheism is not a religion. It fails to meet even the basic criteria that one could construct for atheism as being a religion. Star Wars on the other hand, Jedi'ism, now there's a religion!

    I hope sister that answers your question.


    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Atheist rituals
     Reply #5 - December 27, 2013, 11:57 PM

    From a sociological standpoint......................
    I hope sister that answers your question.

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    which Sister this one??

    well Jedi., first take her to woman salon that has laser hair removal center..

    Well you write so much I only read that last statement

    But I think this thread is important. Atheists must start their own ritual festivals...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Atheist rituals
     Reply #6 - December 28, 2013, 02:02 AM

    That was an interesting article Jibbs.

    It and the replies already posted are a lot about how people use words. How they think about things.
    I didn't look the word "religion" up or refer to any experts. They all have their point of origin,  the way they consider most correct. So what does it all mean?  Each of us I suppose can review the information, add our point of view to the pile. In the end won't it be about respecting individuals.
    The lady in the article declared herself an atheist. She had a need for celebrations as markers for important events. That doesn't seem an odd thing to me. It also doesn't  seem to be something that is by it's nature connected to religion or superstition. That she burned incense or let a grandmother say a prayer was her choice. It was a celebration of her design. To accommodate her and her families needs and way of life.
    Where in I suppose the problem may come is if someone wants to impose on others what they aren't comfortable with. Or if a there is some who would like to take away the choices of someone else. There could be any number of other problems that don't necessarily apply to this topic like making light of or mocking someone else's relogious ceremonies.
    If you are an atheist who doesn't think of your way of life as a religion and you come to be in a conversation with a religious person who thinks of their way of life as their religion which of you is going to be the bigger person and stop arguing about words.
    I think it was in California I heard about the Church of Atheism. Well, they have everything out there. That probably isn't doing much to help the cause of Atheists who don't want to be thought of as a religion.  Hopefully it will be handled better then Pentacostal Holiness thinking Catholics aren't Christians. Even if you feel you've some proof of something like that there's a diplomatic ways to handle it.
    People have different needs. They just need to find ways that work for them and their moral standard, feeling of correctness, belief, social group or whatever helps them in their life.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Atheist rituals
     Reply #7 - December 28, 2013, 07:27 AM

    "I hope sister that answers your question."

     Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
  • Atheist rituals
     Reply #8 - December 28, 2013, 07:35 AM

    This idea of rituals for atheists constitutive of the upper proletariat or bourgeoisie in developed post-industrial nations is at once hopelessly individualistic and a misconceived issue. Atheists can't acquire ecumenical consciousness because atheists don't have largely overarching interests (geist/asabiyya) in comparison to those of a religious temperament. I may want to have an annual ayahuasca drinking session whereas jedi, for instance, may prefer a more demure affair involving family and/or friends.

    RE: civil religion, I think I've enumerated upon hegemony and ideological state apparatuses plenty of times so I don't deem it necessary to recapitulate. It suffices to say that you may not perceive deductive inference within such societal criticism but we must remember that our existence is governed by language. My approach is a partisan one, granted, but I am playing a superior language game.

    On that note, I really wish people writing for the RA would read both Gramsci and Wittgenstein. I am inclined to surmise that platitudinous literary palliatives are constituting themselves as an opiate for intellectual counterhegemonic currents. :(
  • Atheist rituals
     Reply #9 - December 28, 2013, 08:31 AM

    Atheism as a religion is not Hamza's concept. Nor is the word scientism. It is, like everything else he sprouts, something someone else has came up with.

    It's not really surprising that atheists will keep some rituals and traditions like Christmas. most people in this part of the world have fond memories of Christmas as children and want to give their own children that sense of excitement and childhood happiness. As ex-muslims become more mainstream and accepted I have no doubt many will still celebrate Eid in some form or another, just as I'm sure those people who grew up hindu but left the faith will have fond childhood memories of Diwali and seek to pass that on to their own children.

    It can't be denied that as a species we like our traditions and rituals. Whether or not this is a natural aspect of humanity or something fundamentally ingrained into us over thousands and thousands and thousands of years of evolving cultures and societies, I don't know.

    I'm not sure if you're aware, but a year ago there was an atheist church in London (google Sunday Assembly if you're curious). It was quite a hit, and last I heard it was spreading across the UK and even going international. The appeal of it, in my opinion, is the same as any appealing social setting. To feel you have support, to be around like-minded friendly people and to appreciate life. Fair enough. Humans naturally feel a need to connect.

    The truth of the matter is, we've always taken the standards of the time we live in and made it our own. Consider marriage for an example. A long time ago in the western world, marriage was about religion, money, family politics and so on. Love wasn't a part of it. You did your duty to god and clan and if you were lucky you could have a good relationship with your husband/wife, though this wasn't the primary motive. People often dreamed of it being otherwise, but it was considered something childish. You grow up and you do your duty.

    Nowadays it's different. I was born and raised in a culture that views marriage as a personal act, a commitment of two people, and it's all about love. It's the reason most of the western world is fine with gay marriage. We don't view it as being solely for family, or religion, or politics, or procreation, we view it as a very personal thing between two people. And we view it as an act of love.

    So what's wrong with taking something and making it my own? What's wrong with Christmas lights and presents? What's wrong with an atheist getting married but writing their own vows instead of religious vows? What's wrong with pledging themselves to each other and promising each other rather than promising a god they don't believe in? What's wrong with having a funeral so your loved ones have a chance to grieve and find comfort in each other and say goodbye but making it your own rather than some Priest talking shit you never believed in saying you're going to a place everyone knows full well you didn't believe exists?

    I'm very happy to take traditions I like and make them my own. Likewise, I'm also happy to create my own. I'll also abandon the ones I don't care for. This isn't a new thing. It's always been this way. That's why societies change.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Atheist rituals
     Reply #10 - December 28, 2013, 09:06 AM

    Nowadays it's different. I was born and raised in a culture that views marriage as a personal act, a commitment of two people, and it's all about love. It's the reason most of the western world is fine with gay marriage. We don't view it as being solely for family, or religion, or politics, or procreation, we view it as a very personal thing between two people. And we view it as an act of love.


    Actually, love is a political category.
  • Atheist rituals
     Reply #11 - December 28, 2013, 09:27 AM

    Meaning people will use love for political gain or something else?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Atheist rituals
     Reply #12 - December 28, 2013, 11:42 AM

    I don't want atheism to turn into a religion, especially since it had originated as its absence. But there is no problem in celebrating any religious festivals, accurately or loosely. It's not about social decorum but about one's own wishes and joy. At this year's Christmas party that I have went, 98% were Muslims and some hijabis. I should have shown them the fatwa of a certain scholar who had said that imitating the non-Muslims in any manner is forbidden. But I didn't want to be kicked out.
  • Atheist rituals
     Reply #13 - December 28, 2013, 11:43 AM

    Mistletoe and wine? Smiley

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Atheist rituals
     Reply #14 - December 28, 2013, 11:50 AM

    No such things. It's a secular Muslim country.
  • Re: Atheist rituals
     Reply #15 - December 28, 2013, 12:10 PM

    Meaning people will use love for political gain or something else?


    It is intrinsically disciplinarian.

    Unless, unattainable romanticism.
  • Atheist rituals
     Reply #16 - December 28, 2013, 12:22 PM

    That's a very cynical and parsimonious reading of what love is.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Atheist rituals
     Reply #17 - December 28, 2013, 02:20 PM

    Not necessarily. I claim to live the contradiction of my time, yknow?

    It seems impossible to fight desire and conceptualise post-praxis simultaneously. You might as well develop conscious active affirmation and extend your desire as part of that whilst cognising imminent occurrence.

    Say, Ishina, you're not a libertarian, right?
  • Atheist rituals
     Reply #18 - December 28, 2013, 03:02 PM

    I don't really spend much thought on what shape my politics and philosophy amounts to. I certainly don't consciously operate or self-identify as a generic anything. I believe absolutely in the sovereignty of one's own body and will. I'll take a libertarian stand on abortion or drugs or the right to die, for example. But I'm not selfish or reclusive or oblivious enough to be a "libertarian".

    I suppose it depends what you mean by libertarian.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Atheist rituals
     Reply #19 - December 28, 2013, 03:07 PM

    ..... I believe absolutely in the sovereignty of one's own body and will. .......

    So Ishina..   is your views "Is there any age limitation on that rule?? or one must have absolutely  sovereignty of one's own body and will at any age??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Atheist rituals
     Reply #20 - December 28, 2013, 03:13 PM

    I do not practice Christmas so no problem on my end.  Afro I dropped the extra baggage at the door when I dropped religion
  • Atheist rituals
     Reply #21 - December 28, 2013, 03:22 PM

    So Ishina..   is your views "Is there any age limitation on that rule?? or one must have absolutely  sovereignty of one's own body and will at any age??

    Yeah, of course, my views are relative to age. I should add the caveat that I am speaking about informed and consenting adults unless otherwise stated. My views are more complex when it comes to humans during more formative, dependent, subordinate, vulnerable states of being such as childhood.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Atheist rituals
     Reply #22 - December 28, 2013, 03:47 PM

    I don't really spend much thought on what shape my politics and philosophy amounts to. I certainly don't consciously operate or self-identify as a generic anything.
    I believe absolutely in the sovereignty of one's own body and will. I'll take a libertarian stand on abortion or drugs or the right to die, for example. But I'm not selfish or reclusive or oblivious enough to be a "libertarian".

    I suppose it depends what you mean by libertarian.


    That sounds pretty libertarian to me. You must ipso facto grant that free will and determinism are incompatible, then. I find this position to be untenable.
  • Atheist rituals
     Reply #23 - December 28, 2013, 03:58 PM

    That does not follow from what I just said. There is no way you can extrapolate my philosophical views of free will or determinism from the few words I just wrote.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Atheist rituals
     Reply #24 - December 28, 2013, 05:48 PM

    I don't want atheism to turn into a religion, especially since it had originated as its absence. But there is no pjroblem in celebrating any religious festivals, accurately or loosely. It's not about social decorum but about one's own wishes and joy. At this year's Christmas party that I have went, 98% were Muslims and some hijabis. I should have shown them the fatwa of a certain scholar who had said that imitating the non-Muslims in any manner is forbidden. But I didn't want to be kicked out.

    Why would have you been kicked out?
    Are you able to tell everone of those Muslims at the Christmas party that you're an Atheist and have them accept that?
    Now if someone doesn't want to do want they say they believe is right (no initiating other religions or whatever) that is up to them. But they then condemn someone else for doing what they believe is right seem just a bit  hypocritical. I suppose there are all kinds of circumstances. I'd like to know how it worked in real life just not theory.
    I don't think there is much chance of Atheism becoming as formalized as some religions. There are just aspect of Atheism or Secularism that come to be "religion like" or "god like" for "some people" that follow those ways of life. The great mind, speakers and teacher become almost "prophet like" to "some people".  Looking at  things from the perspective of people that are taught the Bible these thing can then become a persons god in place of the true God and their religion in place of true worship. This from a Bible believers point of view is because anything that is put in the absolute most important place in your life is your god unless it's the true God that created everything else then it's your God.
    That's why I say it's an argument of words. If  someone wants to insist Atheism is a religion it might be from their perspective. So what? Does it have to be from your perspective?  No it doesn't. You stated prespective very clearly Atheism is the absence of religion. It also didn't matter if an Atheist (or any one else I suppose) celebrated religious ceremonies. You do seems to have little issue with hypocrisy (most people do).

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Atheist rituals
     Reply #25 - December 28, 2013, 06:02 PM

    If anyone thinks that the majority of people who celebrate Christmas are celebrating a religious festival, they are very much mistaken. People celebrate because celebration is fun and any excuse will do. Believing in cosmic super beings is not a necessary requirement of having fun at this time of year.

    People would be having celebrations around this time of year anyway even if Christianity never existed. Christians appropriated seasonal celebrations from much older, pagan festivals. So Christmas is actually just a good old pagan knees-up.

    And just as Christians are not expected to modify the name of Thursday to distance themselves from Thor, neither should non-Christians be expected to modify the name of Christmas to distance themselves from Christ.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Atheist rituals
     Reply #26 - December 28, 2013, 08:16 PM

    Everything said and done from a totally Biblical perspective I would argue that Christians shouldn't be celebrating Christmas if they wanted to be most accurate. This however isn't the topic.
    Those Christian who do celebrate Christmas and then have any kind of question or remark about Atheist who also celebrate are hypocrites at worst and uninformed at least.
    I love to give gifts and thrive on good deals. I find it a much more creative plan to wait till after the mad house Christmas buying frenze when there are good sales. Then on a day of my choosing after I've shopped at my leisure I can have a party or parties of my own design.  
    If however you enjoy that frenze and have nothing in your code of activity to stops you taking part go for it.
    I wonder what part why "the majority of people are celebrating..." has to do with this. Actually in the area where I am most people do celebrate Christmas for religious reasons. None the less why they are caught up in the commercialism is beyond me.
    So if what Ishina says is correct the majority are celebrating because they want to have fun. Why are they allowing themselves to be manipulated by the commercialism?  That may seem like an odd question. However if you claim yourself to be a thinking person, so much so that you've evolved past the need for directions and assistance from a "supernatural being" why would you let yourself be manipulated into celebrating an ancient pagan festival disguised as a Christian celebration by commercialism and or traditionalism.  I would think just about anyone, let alone someone of truly superior ablility, should be able to devise ways to entertain themself.
    Perhaps it is harder then one might think to break with tradition and fight against commercialism.
    I count myself fortunate that I was exposed to many choices since I was very young and asked to think about what the differences are. "Because everyone else is doing it", was never a good enough answer. So I've already formulated my ideas on celebrating things. I've raised my children and their raising children (well my daighter is). So we have our ideas and how we interact with relatives that believe the same as us and those who don't.
    Bottom line still is having a reason you're comfortable with. Even if everyone else in the world thinks it is stupid you're the one who has to live with it. You're the one who has to live with yourself with what you do.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Atheist rituals
     Reply #27 - December 28, 2013, 11:46 PM

    Celebrations should be meant for anyone who wishes to participate to participate. Christmas for example is seen as a secular holiday by most,in theUSA Regardless of the orgin if you see an event you want to participate in go ahead.

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Atheist rituals
     Reply #28 - December 29, 2013, 01:24 AM

    I wonder what part why "the majority of people are celebrating..." has to do with this. Actually in the area where I am most people do celebrate Christmas for religious reasons. None the less why they are caught up in the commercialism is beyond me.
    So if what Ishina says is correct the majority are celebrating because they want to have fun. Why are they allowing themselves to be manipulated by the commercialism?  That may seem like an odd question. However if you claim yourself to be a thinking person, so much so that you've evolved past the need for directions and assistance from a "supernatural being" why would you let yourself be manipulated into celebrating an ancient pagan festival disguised as a Christian celebration by commercialism and or traditionalism.  I would think just about anyone, let alone someone of truly superior ablility, should be able to devise ways to entertain themself.
    Perhaps it is harder then one might think to break with tradition and fight against commercialism.

    Why do you describe it as manipulation? Splitting up the work year by taking some time off around the same time most other people are taking time off, brightening the home up with seasonal decoration, gathering with friends and family, having a feast, giving gifts, extravagantly indulging loved ones, getting drunk and being merry... why are these things summed up as manipulated conformity by you? It strikes me as a very cynical and pessimistic perspective.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Atheist rituals
     Reply #29 - December 29, 2013, 01:35 AM

    That does not follow from what I just said. There is no way you can extrapolate my philosophical views of free will or determinism from the few words I just wrote.


    Apologies. I misconstrued sovereignty for freedom — sleep deprived speedy thoughts. My bad.

    That being said, I still think the idea of 'will' is a nonsensical concept.
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »