Quran's literary style

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- Siunaa Maailmaa
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Quran's literary style
OP - January 24, 2014, 10:14 AM

I was reading this "dawah" stuff where they talked about the unique style of Quran. So the basic point is that it's neither prose or poetry, which I have heard before, but it said that the uniqueness comes especially from the fact that it mixes those two in magnificent way. Some parts are metric and rhyming, while some are not. It was also claimed that it's not fully Saj'.

So since I don't speak Arabic, I would like to ask few questions about these claims. You don't have to know Arabic but if you do, even better. I was reading Quran in the major translations, then word to word translations and also transliteration (so Arabic but written with our letters), and didn't really see anything remarkable. But there is the same cop out, which is probably partly based on truth though, that since I don't speak Arabic, I cannot get it. (It of course creates problem, that why God couldn't create a book that could be easily translated, but whatever)
So, few questions:

1) Is the style unique?
1b) If it is, then how unique is it?
2) Does it change from metric to free or vice verse so fluently, that you cannot even hear it? Scholar said that it is partly metric and partly free, but so fluently mixed that you have to analyze it very carefully to see where it changes.
3) Are there any other books/writings in history where they have mixture of poetry and prose?
3b) If there is, is it as fluent mix as the Quran supposedly is?

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
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Quran's literary style
Reply #1 - January 24, 2014, 11:11 AM

i recorded a webinar where Tzortzis elaborates on this. I will upload it later.
It is pretty pathetic. There isn't much to it.
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Reply #2 - January 24, 2014, 11:31 AM

Quote from: dr_sloth on January 24, 2014, 11:11 AM
i recorded a webinar where Tzortzis elaborates on this. I will upload it later.

Hmm.. you are attending that fool's webinars

Do you by chance record all those 12 webinars of that fellow dear dr_sloth?

Quote
It is pretty pathetic. There isn't much to it.

well that is what expect . all these fools run in circles without going anywhere. that much is certain

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Quran's literary style
Reply #3 - January 24, 2014, 11:36 AM

Quote
Do you by chance record all those 12 webinars of that fellow dear dr_sloth?

no because when other Muslims were asking if they were gonna be uploaded anyway, he said yes, and stupidly of me, I didn't automatically suspect him of lying. I wont make that mistake again.
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Quran's literary style
Reply #4 - January 24, 2014, 11:38 AM

Literature is always subjective, so you will never get an "objective" or "true" answer to that question. And personally, I find this discussion irrelevant and useless if it is in order to establish the Quran's "divinity". Regular humans have produced masterpieces, both in style and content, that are still read and appreciated 1000's and 100s of years after they were written, and that will still be appreciated and loved for 100s of years to come. We do not however take them as divine nor do we argue that the writers were divinely inspired. I think that a lot of people would appreciate lets say Kafka or Dostoyevski and their works far more than the Quran. I know I did, even as a Muslim.

During Mo's time, while he was compiling the Quran, there were arabs that both loved the Quran or who deemed it to be ludacrious or average/below average literature. So even when the Quran was supposedly best understood and appreciated, people were of different opinions concerning its quality and "divinity". I don't think we are in any better position to come up with an "objective" conclusion...

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Quran's literary style
Reply #5 - January 24, 2014, 12:17 PM

I don't think it is divine, but just interested to get answer to those few questions.

1) Is the style unique?
1b) If it is, then how unique is it?
2) Does it change from metric to free or vice verse so fluently, that you cannot even hear it? Scholar said that it is partly metric and partly free, but so fluently mixed that you have to analyze it very carefully to see where it changes.
3) Are there any other books/writings in history where they have mixture of poetry and prose?
3b) If there is, is it as fluent mix as the Quran supposedly is?

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
- josephus
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Quran's literary style
Reply #6 - January 24, 2014, 04:01 PM

Siunaa

Is the style of James Joyce's Ulysses unique? If so, does it means that Joyce was a deity, connected to a deity, divinely inspired? All literature of quality has a "style" that is "unique" in some senses, and is often subsequently plagiarised, pastiched, imitated to the point of flattery. Lots of ancient literature mixes poetry and prose - Isaiah and Exodus and the plays of Euripides are good examples.

There's only one way for you to really answer these question for yourself, and that is to do the work - read a wide selection of ancient and medieval literatures from the Epic of Gilgamesh onwards. Arguments from literary inimitability presume a level of literary ignorance and unwillingness to actually read books in their target audience; they tend to all flat on anyone who has read widely enough to make a judgement.

Note that when proselytisers are trying to convince you of divinity via some imagined supernatural quality that inheres in a text, what they are studiously avoiding is proselytising by the message of the text - consider why that might be the case.
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Reply #7 - January 24, 2014, 04:11 PM

They say that Kafka is so unique, that he created his own literary genre. Kafka is god.

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Reply #8 - January 24, 2014, 04:16 PM

how about this guy

http://www.majalla.com/eng/2012/03/article55229687

Quote
Syrian born, self-styled literary revolutionary, Adonis, is considered to be the greatest living poet of the Arab World.
...
His poetry has often been considered radical for its violation of taboos. It has been stylistically innovative since the first verses he wrote as a young poet challenged the accepted form of Arabic poetry writing, which was written predominantly in 16 meters, and introduced free verse into contemporary Arabic poetry.
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Quran's literary style
Reply #9 - January 24, 2014, 04:42 PM

Here is the argument. Something to do with pizza.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0klh9gBDFu9
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Quran's literary style
Reply #10 - January 24, 2014, 04:53 PM

Is this real?
- TheDashingRabbit
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Reply #11 - January 24, 2014, 07:51 PM

Arguing about the linguistics of the Quran is completely useless.

When I read a book whether it's fiction or non fiction I judge it by the content of the book and the message it conveys.

It doesn't matter how many rhetorical devices there are in a book if the actual content is crap.

In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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Reply #12 - January 25, 2014, 11:11 AM

Whether it is written beautifully or not, it's gross content makes it damn ugly!
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Reply #13 - January 25, 2014, 12:24 PM

Quote from: Cornflower on January 24, 2014, 04:11 PM
They say that Kafka is so unique, that he created his own literary genre. Kafka is god.

Kafka is shit.

Oops.
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Reply #14 - January 25, 2014, 01:27 PM

Fuck you David

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Quran's literary style
Reply #15 - January 25, 2014, 01:37 PM

Quote from: TheDarkRebel on January 24, 2014, 07:51 PM
Arguing about the linguistics of the Quran is completely useless.

When I read a book whether it's fiction or non fiction I judge it by the content of the book and the message it conveys.

It doesn't matter how many rhetorical devices there are in a book if the actual content is crap.

Even if the Qur'an was the pinnacle of human literature (which I highly doubt it is), you would still have to reconcile the clashes with science, historical mistakes, contradictions, etc. without using circular logic to be able to categorise it as 'divine'.
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Reply #16 - January 25, 2014, 03:37 PM

If the quran is the pinnacle then that means it's been compared to every other. So what's the second best? No one can answer because no one has ever actually looked.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #17 - April 02, 2014, 08:17 PM

Quote from: josephus on January 24, 2014, 04:01 PM
Note that when proselytisers are trying to convince you of divinity via some imagined supernatural quality that inheres in a text, what they are studiously avoiding is proselytising by the message of the text - consider why that might be the case.

Well Said!

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Reply #18 - April 02, 2014, 08:22 PM

Quote from: dr_sloth on January 24, 2014, 04:42 PM
Here is the argument. Something to do with pizza.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0klh9gBDFu9

Quran ... prose and poetry ... intermingling ... like tomato and cheese on a pizza

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http://captaindisguise.blogspot.com/
http://dawahganda.blogspot.com/
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Quran's literary style
Reply #19 - April 02, 2014, 08:49 PM

Quote from: josephus on January 24, 2014, 04:01 PM
Is the style of James Joyce's Ulysses unique? If so, does it means that Joyce was a deity, connected to a deity, divinely inspired?

I’m pretty certain that you could recreate the universe in all its complexity by using Finnegans Wake…
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