Comets of Ice in the Quran

1« Previous thread | Next thread »
- Siunaa Maailmaa
- Member
- Be good
- offline
Comets of Ice in the Quran
OP - January 31, 2014, 10:20 AM

"See you not that Allah drives the clouds gently, then joins them together, then makes them into a heap of layers, and you see the rain comes forth from between them. And He sends down from the sky hail (like) mountains, and strike therewith whom He will, and averts it from whom He wills. The vivid flash of its lightning nearly blinds the sight." 24:43

Here is the same part from literal, word to word translation:

"And He sends down from (the) sky [from] mountains within it [of] (is) hail"

So if it's not talking about comets why does it mention mountains coming from heaven? And why it says 'hail like mountains' if it's not talking about comets? How is the word 'hail' used? Does hail in Classical Arabic mean exactly 'hail' or can it mean also ice or does it mean everything cold/icy falling from above? And how is the word 'mountain' used? Can it mean anything large rock-looking piece or does it mean exactly mountain?

I would also like to remind that comets have very bright lightning, probably brighter than normal lightning. If it's not talking about comets then why would it mention lightning that nearly blinds your eyes?

Is this talking about comets and if it is, is it miraculous? I would like to hear especially from Arabs but feel free to answer regardless of your native language.

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
- Quod Sum Eris
- King of the
- Pub Regular
- offline
Comets of Ice in the Quran
Reply #1 - January 31, 2014, 10:36 AM

How many quran claims need to be debunked before the message sinks in it's not miraculous? Serious question.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- Siunaa Maailmaa
- Member
- Be good
- offline
Comets of Ice in the Quran
Reply #2 - January 31, 2014, 10:49 AM

At least this

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
- Ishina
- Militant Atheist
- Ex-Muslim
- No Fate But What We Make
- offline
Comets of Ice in the Quran
Reply #3 - January 31, 2014, 11:15 AM

Comets are nothing like mountains. Mountains are land masses formed of rock from various stratum that have been forced upwards due to movement of the tectonic plates. Comets are aggregates of ice and dust, leftover debris from the formation of the solar system.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
- Siunaa Maailmaa
- Member
- Be good
- offline
Comets of Ice in the Quran
Reply #4 - January 31, 2014, 11:46 AM

Quote
Comets are nothing like mountains. Mountains are land masses formed of rock from various stratum that have been forced upwards due to movement of the tectonic plates. Comets are aggregates of ice and dust, leftover debris from the formation of the solar system.

I know, but it clearly isn't speaking of literal mountains. So it might be understood as "Mountains (not literal) of ice/hail from heaven". Also the "flash of it's lightning" fits quite well to comets who are very bright.
So how do you see this passage:

"And He sends down from (the) sky [from] mountains within it [of] (is) hail"
I don't speak Classical Arabic (or any kind of Arabic) so I cannot fully understand the order of the words and those prepositions+that one 'is'.
So does that passage mean:
"Mountains of clouds with hail/ice inside of them"
or,
"Mountains (not literal) formed of ice (=comets)"

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
- Ishina
- Militant Atheist
- Ex-Muslim
- No Fate But What We Make
- offline
Comets of Ice in the Quran
Reply #5 - January 31, 2014, 11:58 AM

I don't really see it at all. My eyes kinda glaze over with boredom and my attention fades out when I am witness to desperate strained attempts to manufacture deeper meaning and wisdom out of the vague ramblings of ignorant primitives. So I'm not the best person to answer that.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
- Siunaa Maailmaa
- Member
- Be good
- offline
Comets of Ice in the Quran
Reply #6 - January 31, 2014, 12:12 PM

I agree, but it just left there to bother me.
Do you speak Arabic?

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
- Quod Sum Eris
- King of the
- Pub Regular
- offline
Comets of Ice in the Quran
Reply #7 - January 31, 2014, 12:28 PM

You know, you can look up the Greek who figured out the moon used to be part of the Earth and that it has no light of it's own, but is reflected light from the sun. Far older than islam and actually right. Some things he got wrong but eh, if islam impresses you with getting the majority of things wrong and only a small part right if you hold it upside down, squint your eyes and look closely, then this will blow your mind. Then you can worship Zeus, as that's who the Greeks worshiped and that matters for some reason.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Comets of Ice in the Quran
Reply #8 - January 31, 2014, 12:51 PM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on January 31, 2014, 10:20 AM
"See you not that Allah drives the clouds gently, then joins them together, then makes them into a heap of layers, and you see the rain comes forth from between them. And He sends down from the sky hail (like) mountains, and strike therewith whom He will, and averts it from whom He wills. The vivid flash of its lightning nearly blinds the sight. " 24:43

Here is the same part from literal, word to word translation..

ha! translation.. what translation? why do we need such translations? These translations are sending Muslim folks far away from allah they used to believe. I SAY STOP TRANSLATIONS, BAN ALL TRANSLATIONS OF QURAN Let it be only in Arabic and let those 900 million folks who don't know Arabic stay as blind believers

Ohyee Siunaa Maailmaa
you are bad, you are very bad
you know how to push the buttons
and you know how to enrage people
rascals like yeezevee can not stand surahs like "Al-Noor"
Light ..The Light., What light?
Quote
024.001: a chapter which We have revealed and made obligatory and in which We have revealed clear communications that you may be mindful.

024.002: The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

024.003 : The fornicator shall not marry any but a fornicatress or idolatress, and (as for) the fornicatress, none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolater; and it is forbidden to the believers.

024.004 : And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-

THAT IS LIGHT??
that is fucking light??
Is this allah , his messengers and their henchmen have no work?
They have NO JOB but look in to the bedrooms of people and their sexual habits?
I don't see any light in that "Al-Noor"
I see only men and women screwing around
and allah and his messengers acting as peeping toms.
That is light? No..No ..It is all dark.
I am all blind.. blind to such verses of Quran Siunaa Maailmaa
and I see no light in that "Al-Noor"
It is all dark..pitch dark ..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Siunaa Maailmaa
- Member
- Be good
- offline
Comets of Ice in the Quran
Reply #9 - January 31, 2014, 01:02 PM

Islam doesn't impress me at all.
But I just would like to know what does that min (=of) mean in front of baradin (=(is) hail).
Like does it mean that the mountain's inside is made out of hail/ice or that the cloud has hail in it.

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Comets of Ice in the Quran
Reply #10 - January 31, 2014, 01:11 PM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on January 31, 2014, 01:02 PM
Islam doesn't impress me at all.

No..no...nooo., Islam may or may not have impressed people like you but it did influence and it does influence., It is a religion of its time., So I am neither against or nor I support what has been done to folks in the name of Islam or for that matter any religion. What I am against is putting those pre-medieval silly statements of folks of that time in to 21st century and brain washing people of this time with those silly books as word of allah/god..
'
As far as me writing "Surah Siunaa Maailmaa" is concerned., it is will of allah .. I am just scribbling those words .. so blame allah ..
.

Quote
But I just would like to know what does that min (=of) mean in front of baradin (=(is) hail).Like does it mean that the mountain's inside is made out of hail/ice or that the cloud has hail in it.

By that you are saying to me your mother tongue is Arabic and you are very proficient in Arabic language. May I infer that from your words dear Siunaa Maailmaa?

with best wishes and happy new year
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- josephus
- Member
- offline
Comets of Ice in the Quran
Reply #11 - January 31, 2014, 01:13 PM

Siunaa

It's a poetic description of a thunderstorm. Mountains are a fairly common geographical phenomenon, and the association of mountains, storms and proximity to God or the Gods in heaven, who after all are the ones who send down lightning, is truly ancient.

The heavens and the skies are often used interchangeably - I mean, what's the difference between "I looked up to the heavens" and "I looked up to the skies"?

I can't speak about the quality of the translation, but per Arberry

To God belongs the Kingdom of the heavens and the earth,and to him is the homecoming.
Hast thou not seen how God drives the clouds, then composes them, then converts them to a mass,
then thou seest the rain issuing out of the midst of them?
And He sends down out of the heaven mountains, wherein is hail, so that he smites whom He will with it, and turns it aside from whom he will:
wellnigh with the gleam of His lightning snatches away the sight.
God turns about the day and the night:
surely in that is a lesson for those who have eyes.

Always read the whole Sura, or broader passage, when trying to make sense of the text. Abstracting verses in a narrow way is just pointless, particularly as the text isn't structured as a discrete set of individual verses that have specific meanings within themselves.
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Comets of Ice in the Quran
Reply #12 - January 31, 2014, 01:23 PM

Quote from: josephus on January 31, 2014, 01:13 PM
Siunaa

It's a poetic .................

Always read the whole Sura, or passage. Never abstract a verse from its context in an attempt to understand what's being said.

You have a point there josephus, Quran is nothing but Arabic songs and sonnets of that time and it is sold as word of allah/god.

As far as "read the whole Surah" is concerned., I say it is better to cut these surahs in to passages .. or small sonnets., If you read whole surah at one time and take the meaning out of it, it actually INCRIMINATES Prophet of Islam or writers of Quran as "Snake Oil sales men"

for e,g. what those fist 5 verses I put out in that post from that surah Al-Noor has to do with that verse 24:43 Siunaa Maailmaa's post?

No relation..Nothing.. zero... zippo connection....

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Siunaa Maailmaa
- Member
- Be good
- offline
Comets of Ice in the Quran
Reply #13 - January 31, 2014, 01:29 PM

Quote from: josephus on January 31, 2014, 01:13 PM
Siunaa

It's a poetic description of a thunderstorm. Mountains are a fairly common geographical phenomenon, and the association of mountains, storms and proximity to God or the Gods in heaven, who after all are the ones who send down lightning, is truly ancient.

The heavens and the skies are often used interchangeably - I mean, what's the difference between "I looked up to the heavens" and "I looked up to the skies"?

But what does those mountains mean if not comets? Does they mean clouds? Or does it mean that the hail is as big as a mountain?

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Comets of Ice in the Quran
Reply #14 - January 31, 2014, 01:41 PM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on January 31, 2014, 01:29 PM
But what does those mountains mean if not comets? Does they mean clouds? Or does it mean that the hail is as big as a mountain?

Nope.. No..no.. NO TRANSLATION.. No extraction of any meaning or any rules out of Quran

Just sing.. Sing in Arabic .... that is it., here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvkZtwScr2Q

that is complete surah-24 Al-Noor.. Hmm Al-Noor That tube led me to this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i8xQzDlX8o

Damn that appears to be bollywood in Arabic.. ., That sounds as good as Al Noor.. but it says Arabic Song - Yalla Habibi

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- ibn Bilal
- Global Moderator
- سلاسي هو المسيح
- offline
Comets of Ice in the Quran
Reply #15 - January 31, 2014, 01:43 PM

I've read several different explanations of this verse. None of them have anything to do with comets.

One explanation is that 'mountains' is referring to the clouds. Clouds, particularly on the horizon as part of an approaching storm, do resemble mountains.

Another explanation is that the verse is referring to actual mountains and the fact that, in Arabia, one is only likely to find ice falling from the sky in the mountains due to the cooler temperatures.

The Arabic 'min jibalin' really allows for both interpretations.
- Siunaa Maailmaa
- Member
- Be good
- offline
Comets of Ice in the Quran
Reply #16 - January 31, 2014, 02:04 PM

Ok, makes more sense.
I don't want to start new thread so I just ask in here:

Sahih International
"And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk."

Muhsin Khan
"And the moon, We have measured for it mansions (to traverse) till it returns like the old dried curved date stalk."
36:39

What does this mean? I heard Dawahganda claim that this is talking about the fact that since moon cirles around earth which circles around sun, it is very curved But what does that actually mean?

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
- Siunaa Maailmaa
- Member
- Be good
- offline
Comets of Ice in the Quran
Reply #17 - January 31, 2014, 02:08 PM

Quote from: happymurtad on January 31, 2014, 01:43 PM
The Arabic 'min jibalin' really allows for both interpretations.

But what about 'min baradin'? Why there is 'min' too?

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Comets of Ice in the Quran
Reply #18 - January 31, 2014, 02:48 PM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on January 31, 2014, 02:04 PM
so I just ask in here:

Sahih International
"And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk."

Muhsin Khan
"And the moon, We have measured for it mansions (to traverse) till it returns like the old dried curved date stalk." ...36:39

Dawahganda claim

well on that 36:39 ..Sahih International and Muhsin Khan let me add all so these translations so DawahgandaS can play games with more words
Quote
Surah Ya Sin verse 36:39

Muhammad Asad: and [in] the moon, for which We have determined phases [which it must traverse] till it becomes like an old date-stalk, dried-up and curved

M. M. Pickthall: And for the moon We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shrivelled palm-leaf.

Shakir: And (as for) the moon, We have ordained for it stages till it becomes again as an old dry palm branch.

Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985:    And the Moon,- We have measured for her mansions (to traverse) till she returns like the old (and withered) lower part of a date-stalk.

Yusuf Ali (Orig. 1938):    And the Moon,- We have measured for her mansions (to traverse) till she returns like the old (and withered) lower part of a date-stalk.

Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar: And for the moon We ordained mansions until it reverted like an ripe aged, dry, date stalk.

Wahiduddin Khan: We have ordained phases for the moon until finally it becomes like an old date-stalk.

T.B.Irving: And We have designed phases for the moon so it finally appears again like an old palm frond.

[Al-Muntakhab]: And for the moon We have determined mansions or divisions of the ecliptic which it occupies on 28 successive days and there it falls in a swoon and be like a shriveled and withered date-stalk.

[The Monotheist Group] (2011 Edition){ And the moon We have measured it to appear in stages, until it returns to being like an old curved sheath.

Abdel Haleem: We have determined phases for the moon until finally it becomes like an old date-stalk.

Abdul Majid Daryabadi: And the moon! For it We have decreed mansions till it reverteth like the old branch of a palm-tree.

Ahmed Ali: We have determined the stations of the moon, so that (after its wanderings) it returns as a dried up inflorescent spike of dates.

Aisha Bewley: And We have decreed set phases for the moon, until it ends up looking like an old palm spathe.

Ali Ünal   : And for the moon We have determined mansions till it returns like an old shriveled palm-leaf.

Ali Quli Qara'i: As for the moon, We have ordained its phases, until it becomes like an old palm leaf.

Hamid S. Aziz:    And as for the moon, We have ordained for it stages till it becomes again as an old dry palm leaf.

Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali: And the moon, We have determined it by phases, till it becomes again (Literally: goes back) like the old date-stalk.

Muhammad Sarwar how We ordained the moon to pass through certain phases until it seems eventually to be like a bent twig;

Muhammad Taqi Usmani: And for the moon We have appointed measured phases, until it turned (pale, curved and fine) like an old branch of date palm.

Shabbir Ahmed: And the moon: We have measured for it phases until it becomes (a crescent) like an old curved date-stalk.   zoom

Syed Vickar Ahamed:    And the moon— We have measured for it stages (to travel) till it comes back like the old (and worn out like the) lower part of a (crescent, dried out) date stalk.

Umm Muhammad (Sahih International) : And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk.

Farook Malik:    As for the moon, We have designed phases for it till it again becomes like an old dry palm branch.

Dr. Munir Munshey: And the moon! We destined it to return in stages until it comes back like the dried out branch of the date tree!

Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri:   And We have also appointed stages (of motion and rotation) of the moon till (its appearance to the dwellers of the earth wanes to) the semblance of an old dry branch of a palm-tree.

Dr. Kamal Omar:    And the moon: We have decreed to it stages, till it became again like an old dry branch of a date-palm .

Talal A. Itani (new translation): And the moon: We have disposed it in phases, until it returns like the old twig.

Bilal Muhammad (2013 Edition):    And the Moon, We have ordained for it phases, until it returns like the withered lower part of a date-stalk.

Maududi: We have appointed stages for the moon till it returns in the shape of a dry old branch of palm-tree.

[The Monotheist Group] (2013 Edition):   And the moon We have measured it to appear in stages, until it returns like an old palm sheath

Quote
~~Controversial, deprecated, or status undetermined works~~

Bijan Moeinian: Look at the moon which God has designed it to appear in different stages.

Faridul Haque: And We have appointed positions for the moon till it returns like an old branch of the date palm.

Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah:     And the moon, We have determined it in phases till it returns like an old palmbranch.

Maulana Muhammad Ali:    And the moon, We have ordained for it stages till it becomes again as an old dry palm-branch.

Muhammad Ahmed - Samira:     And the moon We predestined/evaluated it (in) sequences/descents until it returned as/like the palm tree's branch/date bunch, the old .

Sher Ali:    And for the moon WE have appointed stages, till it becomes again like an old dry twig of a palm-tree.

Rashad Khalifa: The moon we designed to appear in stages, until it becomes like an old curved sheath.

Ahmed Raza Khan (Barelvi)   : And We have appointed positions for the moon till it returns like an old branch of the date palm.

Amatul Rahman Omar   : And (think over the phase of) the moon, We have determined its various mansions, so that (after traversing these mansions) it returns (to the stage when it appears) like an old dry twig of a palm-tree.

Muhsin Khan & Muhammad al-Hilali:     And the moon, We have measured for it mansions (to traverse) till it returns like the old dried curved date stalk.

Quote
~~Non-Muslim and/or Orientalist works~~

Arthur John Arberry:       And the moon -- We have determined it by stations, till it returns like an aged palm-bough.

Edward Henry Palmer:    And the moon, we have ordered for it stations, until it comes again to be like an old dry palm branch.

George Sale: And for the moon have We appointed certain mansions, until she change and return to be like the old branch of a palm-tree.

John Medows Rodwell:    And as for the Moon, We have decreed stations for it, till it change like an old and crooked palm branch.

N J Dawood:    We have ordained phases for the moon, which daily wanes and in the end appears like a bent old twig.

Quote
~~New Translations,~~

Sayyid Qutb:    And for the moon We have determined phases until it finally becomes like an old date stalk.

Sayyed Abbas Sadr-Ameli:       And (as for) the moon, We have fixed for it the stages till its returns to be bent like an old palm branch.

and and Listen to the verse here

well there you go., Now these Dawahganda FOOLS can juggle more words around that verse or make another translation for themselves and play with themselves..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- josephus
- Member
- offline
Comets of Ice in the Quran
Reply #19 - January 31, 2014, 03:09 PM

Siunaa

Well, I'm not an Arabist or a Quranic textual scholar, but all the various English translations that have been given show that perhaps there's some confusion in the underlying Arabic text, or that there's an idiomatic expression that was current at the time of composition the understanding of which has subsequently been lost.

That still doesn't change the basic point of the passage being a poetic description of a thunderstorm; still less does it imply any reference to comets.
- ibn Bilal
- Global Moderator
- سلاسي هو المسيح
- offline
Comets of Ice in the Quran
Reply #20 - January 31, 2014, 08:35 PM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on January 31, 2014, 02:08 PM
But what about 'min baradin'? Why there is 'min' too?

“min” can have the meaning “from” or it can have the meaning “a portion of.”

“min jibalin” seems to be best understood as “from mountains,” i.e., the ice is coming from, a) real mountains or b) something that resembles mountains, like clouds. I personally prefer the latter explanation

“min baradin” seems to be best understood as “a portion of ice.”

“min jibalin” could also be understood using the alternate meaning of “min”—so “a portion of mountains” This way, the verse would be understood as saying that We send down from the sky a portion of mountains, in them is a portion of ice.” That works.

I think it makes more sense to read it as, “We send down from the sky, from mountains (clouds), in them a portion of ice.”

And Allah knows best.
1« Previous thread | Next thread »