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Theme Changer

 Topic: Help Me!

 (Read 77188 times)
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  • Help Me!
     Reply #570 - March 23, 2014, 05:36 PM

    Someone might have already said it here, Siunaa, but even a broken clock is right twice a day. The issue when we approach the claim of the Quran to be divinely inspired is that we must not judge the Quran based on how many things it got correct. We only need to see that it got a single thing wrong. We have to judge it by the standards it set for itself.

    You are never going to be able to pick up the Quran and prove everything inside to be indisputably in shambles. You can rarely do that for anything.


    What single thing it got demonstrably wrong?

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #571 - March 23, 2014, 05:41 PM

    Before I answer, what sort of thing are you looking for when you say demonstrably? I think you yourself have seen that the Quran is full of contradictions and at complete odds with reality, but I take it this is not what you are looking for.

    Are you asking for a scientific inaccuracy that hasn't been diluted by apologists?
  • Help Me!
     Reply #572 - March 23, 2014, 05:51 PM

    Every problem I've seen within Quran has been able to find solution.
    Like for example this: If Quran demonstrably claimed that sun went around the earth, it would be clearly wrong. But based on my studies, it doesn't claim that. It can be interpreted from Quran that sun goes around the earth but it doesn't clearly claim so. Similarly, if Quran claimed that the earth was flat it would count as clear error.

    Now I just feel that the strongest argument against Quran is that it's not clearly word of God, which of course helps me cope but doesn't liberate me.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #573 - March 23, 2014, 05:51 PM

    Was it though? I've heard that Mecca wasn't big deal at all and that it wasn't centre of anything and that Mecca being major city is just myth later invented by some muslims.


    In the Quran Mecca is repeatedly shown to be a religious center for many gods of the polytheist. Centers of religion rituals, such as the Kaaba, are centers for the exchange of knowledge as many people from many different areas converge at certain times of year as pilgrims. This alone generates trade as travellers must bring offerings, supplies, modes of travel, etc. Traders will be drawn to such a place due to festivals as they will know a larger than average population will be in Mecca at certain times. This is why major economic centers are in cities not villages. Christmas itself is a festival which generates a large amount of "trade" as many people are all celebrating an event. This is why there is an economic increase in December. People are buying and merchants know this fact so they supply the demand. Religious places themselves are usually places of education as the religious elite were hardly the average person during pre-modern times. They taught acolytes how to read, write, teach, pass judgement, create laws, etc. If Mecca was nothing important the tribes of Mecca would have never defended it against invasion. The religious elite would have never been angry at Mo for trashing their idols, they would have never exiled him.

    Mecca was not important in terms of it's impact on the world before Islam compared to cities such as Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, Chang'an or Luoyang.  However regionally it was an important stop for land trade, Arab polytheism, etc. Also keep in mind Arabia is a very arid area which has been home to nomadic cultures for centuries. An established village, town or city has a greater meaning given the geographical and culture identities of the people living there if compared to a highly settled area such as Italy or Greece. Look at Las Vegas, a city in a desert which was developed as a stop for settlers and trade. Now it is a major city which has developed due to the Hover Dam and the gambling industry which generate tourism. On a world scale LV isn't that important to people in China or for me up in Canada. However for American's it holds value. For gamblers it hold value. Mecca is just such a settlement which has gained value due to Islam, value due to tourism, etc.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #574 - March 23, 2014, 06:01 PM

    Your problem is going to be that there are so many weasel words whenever it comes to scientific claims, so anyone with a mind to do it can think of a way to twist the Quran to adapt to known science.

    I was talking to someone on here about this and I said I wouldn't do it, because this passage has been an all-time annoyance for me, but here you go: if you can really excuse 67:5, I think you're really letting yourself be manipulated way too far. That's one of the worst ones, in my opinion.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #575 - March 23, 2014, 06:09 PM

    Every problem I've seen within Quran has been able to find solution.
    Like for example this: If Quran demonstrably claimed that sun went around the earth, it would be clearly wrong. But based on my studies, it doesn't claim that. It can be interpreted from Quran that sun goes around the earth but it doesn't clearly claim so. Similarly, if Quran claimed that the earth was flat it would count as clear error.

    Now I just feel that the strongest argument against Quran is that it's not clearly word of God, which of course helps me cope but doesn't liberate me.


    This is what apologists do.... It fixes or find excuses in a text, a text from God which should require no corrections.... It the practice of an external source which is correcting a source material. I can do with this with Isaac Newton's idea on Alchemy. "Oh he was really just talking about Chemistry." "Turning lead to gold? Oh that was the theory of synthetic elements in nature and artificial such as plutonium. How could Newton know this centuries ago?" Apologists use a methodology which is not science nor philosophy. It is the method of "What he really means to say is this!".
  • Help Me!
     Reply #576 - March 23, 2014, 06:13 PM

    In the Quran Mecca is repeatedly shown to be a religious center for many gods of the polytheist. Centers of religion rituals, such as the Kaaba, are centers for the exchange of knowledge as many people from many different areas converge at certain times of year as pilgrims. This alone generates trade as travellers must bring offerings, supplies, modes of travel, etc. Traders will be drawn to such a place due to festivals as they will know a larger than average population will be in Mecca at certain times. This is why major economic centers are in cities not villages. Christmas itself is a festival which generates a large amount of "trade" as many people are all celebrating an event. This is why there is an economic increase in December. People are buying and merchants know this fact so they supply the demand. Religious places themselves are usually places of education as the religious elite were hardly the average person during pre-modern times. They taught acolytes how to read, write, teach, pass judgement, create laws, etc. If Mecca was nothing important the tribes of Mecca would have never defended it against invasion. The religious elite would have never been angry at Mo for trashing their idols, they would have never exiled him.

    Mecca was not important in terms of it's impact on the world before Islam compared to cities such as Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, Chang'an or Luoyang.  However regionally it was an important stop for land trade, Arab polytheism, etc. Also keep in mind Arabia is a very arid area which has been home to nomadic cultures for centuries. An established village, town or city has a greater meaning given the geographical and culture identities of the people living there if compared to a highly settled area such as Italy or Greece. Look at Las Vegas, a city in a desert which was developed as a stop for settlers and trade. Now it is a major city which has developed due to the Hover Dam and the gambling industry which generate tourism. On a world scale LV isn't that important to people in China or for me up in Canada. However for American's it holds value. For gamblers it hold value. Mecca is just such a settlement which has gained value due to Islam, value due to tourism, etc.


    Great insight. I had totally blinded myself from the fact that even though Mecca wasn't major city like Rome etc. it had  many people of different cultures visiting, giving insight to them. Is there further reading of the Meccan pagan celebrations? Where did people come there? I've heard there came Beduins, Yemeni, Ethiopians and Persians but I haven't found proof for these claims.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #577 - March 23, 2014, 06:23 PM

    Arabia and the Arabs: From the Bronze Age to the Coming of Islam. Robert G. Hoyland.

    Yeez is the one to ask about books on Islam and Pre-Islamic Arabia which are more accessible than the database I use. You could read Crone's book but views on her writing vary given it covers Islam as well. Browse the resource forum, I am sure there are a few books covering the subject. You could post a thread asking for links if needed. http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?board=13.0
  • Help Me!
     Reply #578 - March 23, 2014, 10:10 PM

    Every problem I've seen within Quran has been able to find solution.
    Like for example this: If Quran demonstrably claimed that sun went around the earth, it would be clearly wrong. But based on my studies, it doesn't claim that. It can be interpreted from Quran that sun goes around the earth but it doesn't clearly claim so. Similarly, if Quran claimed that the earth was flat it would count as clear error.

    Now I just feel that the strongest argument against Quran is that it's not clearly word of God, which of course helps me cope but doesn't liberate me.

    You will never be liberated as long as you don't know:

    - how to come to conclusions
    - how to judge ideas
    - what constitutes "demonstrably false"
    - that arguments are either refuted or unrefuted (which means true or false, as far as we know), not "strong" or "weak" (which implies that there are degrees)

    (note that these all mean the same thing. it's the study of epistemology.)
  • Help Me!
     Reply #579 - March 23, 2014, 10:20 PM

    Why the hang-ups about the Quran? Why not be desperately worried about every other "holy book" too? Why the Quran, and only the Quran?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Help Me!
     Reply #580 - March 23, 2014, 10:29 PM

    I wish more people would get hung up on the Discourses of Buddha or something like that. The world would be a much more chilled place.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #581 - March 23, 2014, 11:47 PM

    Every problem I've seen within Quran has been able to find solution.

    What do you mean by “has been able to find solution?”

    How did you determine that that solution in fact solves the problem? I mean, how did you judge that it actually solves the problem?

    From what I can tell, what you are doing is taking things on authority. You’re not doing any of your own critical thinking.

    Like for example this: If Quran demonstrably claimed that sun went around the earth, it would be clearly wrong. But based on my studies, it doesn't claim that. It can be interpreted from Quran that sun goes around the earth but it doesn't clearly claim so.

    What do you mean by “It can be interpreted from Quran that X?” Are you talking about the correct interpretation?

    If that’s what you mean, then my next question is: How did you come to the conclusion that the claimed interpretation is correct? Did you do the following:

    You start with a problem.

    You brainstorm multiple possible interpretations (theories) — these are proposal solutions. They are rivals of each other. (You can get some interpretations from other people, like from books.)

    And you also criticize the possible theories, looking for flaws. Flaws can be things like contradictions. Flaws can also be cases where a theory contradicts empirical evidence.

    And you also criticize the criticisms. (You can get help from other people by exposing your analysis for external criticism.)

    A theory is refuted if it has at least one outstanding criticism.

    The goal is to have a theory that refutes all of it’s rivals. This is the correct interpretation, as far as we know.

    Did you do all of this work for each of the problems you found? Did you expose your analysis to CEMB for external criticism?


    Quote
    Similarly, if Quran claimed that the earth was flat it would count as clear error.

    Let’s play devil’s advocate. What if I could interpret that verse you find in such a way where it doesn’t say that the earth is flat? What would you say to that?



    Quote from: osmanthus
    Why the hang-ups about the Quran? Why not be desperately worried about every other "holy book" too? Why the Quran, and only the Quran?

    Right!

    How do you rule out the other religions?

    If your problem is: Which religion is true? Then how do you rule out the possibility that Christianity, Judaism, or Buddhism is the true religion?
  • Help Me!
     Reply #582 - March 24, 2014, 06:17 AM

    I was talking to someone on here about this and I said I wouldn't do it, because this passage has been an all-time annoyance for me, but here you go: if you can really excuse 67:5, I think you're really letting yourself be manipulated way too far. That's one of the worst ones, in my opinion.


    Q 37:6-
    Verily! We have adorned the near heaven with the stars (for beauty).
    And to guard against every rebellious devil.

    Q  67:5
    And indeed We have adorned the nearest heaven with lamps, and We have made such lamps (as) missiles to drive away the Shayatin (devils), and have prepared for them the torment of the blazing Fire.

    There seems to be three errors:
    1) It looks like Quran doesn't know difference between shooting stars and stars
    2) It places stars in the lowest/nearest heaven which is very hard to justify in order to fit science
    3) It claims that they are missiles against jinns

    I have to look at hadith and tafsir to know how they were understood but I didn't realize big of a error this seems to be.

    RamiRustom, I will look at your posts next but now I have other things to do outside of Islam Smiley

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #583 - March 24, 2014, 06:19 AM

    No, you don't really have to look at hadith and tafseer. That verse is obviously idiotic. yes

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Help Me!
     Reply #584 - March 24, 2014, 06:22 AM

    When I mentioned that passage to a Muslim last, they nodded and paused and then said, "Well, why can't shooting stars be missiles against demons?" And when I think about 67:5, I still cringe a little to remember that.
     
    I had to talk about, you know, physics. For a long time. And even then, they tried to say that perhaps God in his wisdom knew that the demons were going to be listening in by the atmosphere at the exact moments that physics would have had something shooting through space.

    But most Muslims try to say it is a metaphor. I have tried to get someone to give me not just a good metaphoric use for that passage, but any one whatsoever, and I've found that to be a tall order.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #585 - March 24, 2014, 06:27 AM

    Q 37:6-
    Verily! We have adorned the near heaven with the stars (for beauty).
    And to guard against every rebellious devil.

    Q  67:5
    And indeed We have adorned the nearest heaven with lamps, and We have made such lamps (as) missiles to drive away the Shayatin (devils), and have prepared for them the torment of the blazing Fire.

    There seems to be three errors:
    1) It looks like Quran doesn't know difference between shooting stars and stars
    2) It places stars in the lowest/nearest heaven which is very hard to justify in order to fit science

    Scientists are stupid fools., they better stop doing their science and do Quran science..

    Astronomy in the Quran

    BLACK HOLES IN QURAN

    white Darfs in Quran

    fools write nonsense to brain wash kids..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Help Me!
     Reply #586 - March 24, 2014, 06:29 AM

    When I mentioned that passage to a Muslim last, they nodded and paused and then said, "Well, why can't shooting stars be missiles against demons?" And when I think about 67:5, I still cringe a little to remember that.
     
    I had to talk about, you know, physics. For a long time. And even then, they tried to say that perhaps God in his wisdom knew that the demons were going to be listening in by the atmosphere at the exact moments that physics would have had something shooting through space.

    Umm, k. So, umm, does this mean that there aren't any demons around at all most of the time? I mean shooting stars are pretty rare, so there aren't a lot of missiles to go round. Doesn't seem like an effective defense system unless demons are as rare as shooting stars.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Help Me!
     Reply #587 - March 24, 2014, 06:32 AM

    It was one of those times where I just didn't really even know what to say.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #588 - March 24, 2014, 06:35 AM

    At times like that, what's really needed is a sharp whack across the ears with a 4x2. Afro

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Help Me!
     Reply #589 - March 24, 2014, 06:39 AM

    Mock them. They deserve it.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Help Me!
     Reply #590 - March 24, 2014, 10:08 AM

    Siunaa

    You're violating one of the most fundamental tenets of reading - you read the book ( in this case, the Quran ) as you would read any other book.

    The Quran is using poetic metaphors that were extant in the culture of the writers/compilers of the text - they don't describe physical reality in any cogent scientific way, and it is impossible to derive any coherent phenomenology of the world ( or the person ) from them. And this isn't a problem really - just think about how we use language today - does the sun rise and set? No, but the expression is probably so anciently inscribed in all natural languages ( which primordially reflect basic human experiences of the world ) that we're never going to replace it with something like "the earth turns its back to the sun". Likewise the four corners of the earth. If you cannot understand that the modern apologetic assertion that four lines of poetry ( which derive from an antecedent text ) correctly describe embryological development is part of a desperate and hilarous attempt to rescue a clapped-out text from epistemological oblivion then you are truly impervious to any rational debate on any issue.

    You still have to deal with the awkward question of why, in spite of the possession of the Quran, and the presumptive massive intellectual advantages that it should have provided, being the absolute and faultlessly true word of God, and the monopoly of the linguistic, interpretive and traditio-historical tools for understanding the text of the Quran, muslim astronomers for over a thousand years failed to notice that the sun did not orbit the earth, were completely oblivious to the existence of planetary objects beyond those known from deep anitiquity, and muslim religious scholars had lively debates as to whether the earth was spherical or flat. I've posed this point to you three times now - how do you explain the failure of muslims to generate accurate knowledge about physical reality, which can only be "read" back into the text after non-muslims, who were ignorant of it, shed their dependence on the inherited intellectual authority of antiquity to correctly describe, interpet and understand the physical phenomena of the world?
  • Help Me!
     Reply #591 - March 24, 2014, 12:17 PM

    When I mentioned that passage to a Muslim last, they nodded and paused and then said, "Well, why can't shooting stars be missiles against demons?" And when I think about 67:5, I still cringe a little to remember that.

    lol

    what the fuck is a demon?

    Siunaa Maailmaa,

    do you believe in demons?

    if you don't believe in demons, then you should consider this verse crap because it talks about things that are fake as if they are real, and then you should conclude that the Quran is manmade. (note that believing in demons is older than Islam. Islam just adopted the same stupid superstitions that already existed. oh and this raises another question: if Quran is the word of god, then why didn't god fix all the stupid superstitions of the past instead of *not* fixing them? is god confused too?)

    if you *do* believe in demons, then that raises the question: why do you believe in demons?
  • Help Me!
     Reply #592 - March 24, 2014, 03:23 PM

    S I don't know if you have seen this but she makes some really good points
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCa6JwMoM6A

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Help Me!
     Reply #593 - March 24, 2014, 04:51 PM

    Don't worry people, I don't believe this but I just wanted to spread one explanation because even I was left with amazement how utter nonsense the answer was. (About those shooting stars)
    It was something about gamma-rays, smokeless fire, microwaves etc.
    It was also so obvious when it basically said: "This may mean microwaves, gamma-rays blah blah blah, God knows best" and then in conclusion in the end of the article it totally differently says: "And this scientific miracle is just one of the proofs for Islam".

    Like for real, how can you claim that those few passages explains clearly gamma-rays and microwaves. Like for real, I think even Zakir Naik double facepalms after reading that article.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #594 - March 24, 2014, 05:08 PM

    Or maybe Allah finally mastered the "Hadouken!"
  • Help Me!
     Reply #595 - March 24, 2014, 05:52 PM

    So have I met your challenge with 67:5,  Siunaa?  Wink
  • Help Me!
     Reply #596 - March 24, 2014, 07:04 PM

    Q 37:6-
    Verily! We have adorned the near heaven with the stars (for beauty).
    And to guard against every rebellious devil.

    Q  67:5
    And indeed We have adorned the nearest heaven with lamps, and We have made such lamps (as) missiles to drive away the Shayatin (devils), and have prepared for them the torment of the blazing Fire.

    There seems to be three errors:
    1) It looks like Quran doesn't know difference between shooting stars and stars
    2) It places stars in the lowest/nearest heaven which is very hard to justify in order to fit science
    3) It claims that they are missiles against jinns


    Tafsir Al-Jalalayn 37:6-
    We have indeed adorned the lowest heaven with an adornment, the stars, that is to say, [adorned] with their light or with them [the stars] (the genitive annexation [bi-zīnati’l-kawākib] is for explication; similarly [explicative] is the reading of bi-zīnatin, ‘with an adornment’, with nunation, [the adornment] explained as being ‘the stars’);
    and to guard (wa-hifzan is in the accusative because of an implied verb) that is to say, ‘We have guarded it with meteors’, from every (min kulli is semantically connected to the implied verb) any rebellious devil, who is a transgressor, in rebellion against obedience.
    They, namely, the devils (lā yasma‘ūna, this is [the beginning of] a new sentence) cannot listen in — this ‘listening’ of theirs represents that faculty with which they memorise [what they hear] — on the High Council, the angels in the heavens (the [normally transitive verb] al-samā‘ is complemented with the preposition ilā, ‘to’ [here ‘in on’] because it includes the additional sense of ‘paying attention’ [while listening]; a variant reading has yassamma‘una, which is actually yatasamma‘ūna, the tā’ have been assimilated with the sīn), for they, the devils, are pelted, with flames, from every side, from the remotest regions of the heavens,
    to repel [them] (duhūran is a verbal noun from daharahu, meaning, ‘he repelled him, driving him away’; it is an object denoting reason) and theirs, in the Hereafter, is an everlasting chastisement;


    Tafsir Ibn Kathir 37:6-
    Allah tells us that He has adorned the lowest heaven with the heavenly bodies for those among the people of the earth who look at it. The stars and planets in the sky give light to the people of earth, as Allah says:
    (And indeed We have adorned the nearest heaven with lamps, and We have made such lamps (as) missiles to drive away the Shayatin, and have prepared for them the torment of the blazing Fire.) (67:5),
    (And indeed, We have put the big stars in the heaven and We beautified it for the beholders. And We have guarded it from every outcast Shaytan. Except him who steals the hearing then he is pursued by a clear flaming fire.) (15:16-18). And Allah says here:
    (And to guard) meaning, to protect as it should be protected,

    (against every rebellious Shaytan. ) means, every insolent and impudent devil, when he wants to eavesdrop (on news in the heavens), a piercing fire comes and burns him.


    Tafsir Al-Jalalayn 67:5
    And verily We have adorned the lowest heaven, the one closest to the earth, with lamps, with stars, and made them missiles against the devils, should they [attempt to] listen by stealth, in which case a meteor of fire detaches itself from the star, just like a brand is taken from a fire, and either kills that jinn or deprives him of his senses: it is not that the star itself is displaced from its position; and We have prepared for them the chastisement of the Blaze, the ignited Fire.

    Tafsir Ibn Kathir 67:5
    (And indeed We have adorned the nearest heaven with lamps, ) This refers to the stars which have been placed in the heavens, some moving and some stationary. In Allah's statement,
    (and We have made them (as) missiles to drive away the Shayatin,) The pronoun `them' in His statement, "and We have made them'' is the same type of statement as the stars being referred to as lamps. This does not mean that they are actually missiles, because the stars in the sky are not thrown. Rather, it is the meteors beneath them that are thrown and they are taken from the stars. And Allah knows best. Concerning Allah's statement,
    (and We have prepared for them the torment of the blazing Fire.) means, `We have made this disgrace for the devils in this life and We have prepared for them the torment of the blazing Fire in the Hereafter.' This is as Allah said in the beginning of Surat As-Saffat,

    (Verily, We have adorned the near heaven with the stars (for beauty). And to guard against every rebellious devil. They cannot listen to the higher group (angels) for they are pelted from every side. Outcast, and theirs is a constant (or painful) torment. Except such as snatch away something by stealing, and they are pursued by a flaming fire of piercing brightness.) ﴿37:6-7﴾ Qatadah said, "These stars were only created for three purposes: Allah created them as adornment for the heaven (sky), as missiles for the devils and as signs for navigation. Therefore, whoever seeks to interpret any other meanings for them other than these, then verily he has spoken with his own opinion, he has lost his portion and burdened himself with that which he has no knowledge of.'' Ibn Jarir and Ibn Abi Hatim both recorded this statement.

    1. Is it speaking about stars or shooting stars? Is 'l-kawākibi’ word for stars only or for heavenly bodies including planets?
    2. Does ’l-samāa’ refer to sky or to universe like some muslims claim?

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #597 - March 24, 2014, 07:05 PM

    So have I met your challenge with 67:5,  Siunaa?  Wink


    Well it's stupid passage for sure and it's up there for sure. So I would say yes.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #598 - March 24, 2014, 07:15 PM

    Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa
    Well it's stupid passage for sure and it's up there for sure. So I would say yes.


    So do you still want to examine the "miracles" of the quran?
  • Help Me!
     Reply #599 - March 24, 2014, 07:22 PM

    I will study this thing given by lua little bit more. I'm confident that the scholars of Islam don't come up with anything good explanation but for the fairness, I want to give them the chance and check their explanations. Will I now stop examine these "miracles"? Probably not but the more I find these gems the happier I am and the free'er I get.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
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