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Theme Changer

 Topic: Help Me!

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  • Help Me!
     Reply #30 - February 05, 2014, 01:55 PM

    2. The Quran doesn't talk about the Big Bang at all.

    Quran 21:30 says:
    "Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity (ratq), then We separated (fataq) them, and made from water every living thing?  Then will they not believe?"

    The word ratq means; entity, sewn to, joined together, closed up.
    These all circle around something mixed that has seperate (and also distinct) existence, thus fitting the Big Bang theory.
    The word fataq means; We unstitched, We clove them asunder, We separated, We opened, We expanded.
    The growth of a seed from the soil is one example of the verb 'fataq'.


    The big bang theory explains that 14 billion years ago, all energy (which is actually the same basic thing as matter), space itself (which is also the same basic thing as time), and every other component of the universe existed as a point of infinite density and infinite temperature.
    This point expanded rapidly and cooled, and a few hundred thousand years later, it was then cool enough for the first atoms to form. But these were just very simple atoms like hydrogen.

    Because of the law of gravity (which also emerged at the big bang) these simple atoms attract each other, and they group together as clouds of gas over millions of years. These clouds of gas attract more and more simple atoms (because of it's increasing mass), and high density builds up causing the ball of gas to spin and and the dense centre of the ball of gas to heat up. This heat causes fusion of simple atoms, producing helium atoms. This fusion reaction releases energy, and a causes a chain reaction producing lots of heat, igniting the ball of gas and the first stars have now emerged, 100 million years after the big bang.

    Stars eventually use up their energy and they die. In this process of dying, the star collapses and becomes very dense, which also increases temperature. The incredibly high temperatures reached at this point, are high enough for heavier atoms to start forming. These new elements also fuse in this high temperature and pressure, causing heavier elements to start forming. This process of star formation and death continues producing more and more elements.

    Eventually, after these new elements have dispersed into the universe, some of the heavier atoms group together due to gravity again, forming clouds of dust. Clouds of dust in turn group together forming small rocks. Which again attracts more dust forming larger rocks. These rocks continue to grow in size, until we have something like the planet earth, which formed about 9 billion years after the big bang.

    At no point was the earth separated from anything else. It is part of the universe.





    On one hand, we have the scientific account above, and on the other hand we have the mythical account that the earth was separated from the sky or heavens, that is found in many creation myths.
    on page 346 of the book 'creation myths of the world', we are told that "One of the most widespread motifs in creation myths is that of the separation of Heaven (or Sky) and Earth."

    Maori myth for example:
    "It is by the strength of Tane that the sky and Earth were separated, and Light was born."

    Sumerian myth:
    "After heaven had been moved away from earth,
    After earth had been separated from heaven,
    After the name of man had been fixed;"



    So now all you have to do is decide which category the quran's version of events falls under.

    "the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, then We separated them"

    Does the quranic verse above more closely resemble the scientific account of the big bang? Or does it more closely resemble the mythical account of the heavens and earth being once joined and then separated?

    Does the quran capture any of the essential features of the big bang theory?
    Does the quran fundamentally differ from the other mythical accounts of heavens and earth being separated?

    I don't understand how this islamic explanation you have found is any way explaining how the quran correlates with the big bang. What does circling around "something mixed that has seperate (and also distinct) existence" even mean?  Are you sure whoever wrote this even knows what the big bang theory is? Doesn't look that way to me.

    If the quran describes the big bang theory, why does it do it in such a way that has no similarity with the big bang theory at all, and so closely resembles ancient and common myth? Is Allah not very good at explaining himself? How can the creator of the universe be less able to say what he means than me?
  • Help Me!
     Reply #31 - February 05, 2014, 02:35 PM

    The big bang theory explains that 14 billion years ago, all energy (which is actually the same basic thing as matter), space itself (which is also the same basic thing as time), and every other component of the universe existed as a point of infinite density and infinite temperature.
    This point expanded rapidly and cooled, and a few hundred thousand years later, it was then cool enough for the first atoms to form. But these were just very simple atoms like hydrogen.

    Because of the law of gravity (which also emerged at the big bang) these simple atoms attract each other, and they group together as clouds of gas over millions of years. These clouds of gas attract more and more simple atoms (because of it's increasing mass), and high density builds up causing the ball of gas to spin and and the dense centre of the ball of gas to heat up. This heat causes fusion of simple atoms, producing helium atoms. This fusion reaction releases energy, and a causes a chain reaction producing lots of heat, igniting the ball of gas and the first stars have now emerged, 100 million years after the big bang.

    Stars eventually use up their energy and they die. In this process of dying, the star collapses and becomes very dense, which also increases temperature. The incredibly high temperatures reached at this point, are high enough for heavier atoms to start forming. These new elements also fuse in this high temperature and pressure, causing heavier elements to start forming. This process of star formation and death continues producing more and more elements.

    Eventually, after these new elements have dispersed into the universe, some of the heavier atoms group together due to gravity again, forming clouds of dust. Clouds of dust in turn group together forming small rocks. Which again attracts more dust forming larger rocks. These rocks continue to grow in size, until we have something like the planet earth, which formed about 9 billion years after the big bang.

    At no point was the earth separated from anything else. It is part of the universe.

    (Clicky for piccy!)



    On one hand, we have the scientific account above, and on the other hand we have the mythical account that the earth was separated from the sky or heavens, that is found in many creation myths.
    on page 346 of the book 'creation myths of the world', we are told that "One of the most widespread motifs in creation myths is that of the separation of Heaven (or Sky) and Earth."

    Creation myths from different cultures
    [quote]Maori myth for example: 
    "It is by the strength of Tane that [b]the sky and Earth were separated, [/b]and Light was born."

    Sumerian myth:
    "After heaven had been moved away from earth,
    [b]After earth had been separated from heaven,[/b]
    After the name of man had been fixed;"
    [hr]
    [/quote]
    Quran
    So now all you have to do is decide which category the quran's version of events falls under.

    "the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, then We separated them"

    Does the quranic verse above more closely resemble the scientific account of the big bang? Or does it more closely resemble the mythical account of the heavens and earth being once joined and then separated?

    Does the quran capture [b]any[/b] of the essential features of the big bang theory?
    Does the quran fundamentally differ from the other mythical accounts of heavens and earth being separated?

    I don't understand how this islamic explanation you have found is any way explaining how the quran correlates with the big bang. What does circling around "something mixed that has seperate (and also distinct) existence" even mean?  Are you sure whoever wrote this even knows what the big bang theory is? Doesn't look that way to me.

    If the quran describes the big bang theory, why does it do it in such a way that has no similarity with the big bang theory at all, and so closely resembles ancient and common myth? Is Allah not very good at explaining himself? How can the creator of the universe be less able to say what he means than me?

     that post along with this picture



    is very well written dr_sloth  but we must note here that this theory of big bang is not an unquestionable one..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Help Me!
     Reply #32 - February 05, 2014, 02:37 PM

    There is a lot more we do not know about the universe and it's beginning. But I would put my money on Big Bang before a creating god any day as we have actual proof for it Smiley

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Help Me!
     Reply #33 - February 05, 2014, 02:50 PM

    Siunaa

    Whether the use of extend/spread/stretch in metaphors about the heavens/skies/earth equates to a flat earth cosmology isn't that important - it's a spectacular example of how asking the wrong questions can lead you into a croc-infested creek. The metaphors are instantly familiar to anyone who has read the OT/NT/Intertestamental/exegetical literature and a good cross-section of the literary/philosophic/scientific output of the Ancient near eastern and Mediterranean worlds - which is in and of itself an enormous clue.

    What is important is the understanding that the Quranic text is not some year-zero apparition that bursts into the world without a history - we recognise the provenance of these metaphors and we then recognise that the Quran is part of a written human historical/cultural/theological/intellectual legacy that goes back some 3000 years prior to its writing/compilation; that the the Quran is a text that is dependent on antecedent texts; that parts of the Quran are in fact extraordinarily similar to Midrashic/Christian exegeses of biblical texts; that the Quran is the product and expression of (a) historical and spatial human culture, and not the transmission of magic, miraculous, angelic words from heaven that are coterminous with God.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #34 - February 05, 2014, 03:47 PM

    There is a lot more we do not know about the universe and it's beginning. But I would put my money on Big Bang before a creating god any day as we have actual proof for it Smiley

    There is a lot more we do not know about the universe and it's beginning. But I would put my money on Big Bang before a creating god any day as we have actual proof for it Smiley

    To know about creation of Big Bang...take a look at pussy and penis..Dual Force Banging..how were we created.. The same thing to know, how were universe, earth, sun, moon etc created.... Cheesy

    Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
  • Help Me!
     Reply #35 - February 05, 2014, 04:12 PM

    ........ Big Bang...take a look at pussy and penis..Dual Force Banging.............universe, earth, sun, moon etc created.... Cheesy

    great  ..S.A.M  great   you are going up in the scale..

    Is everything alright  in life?  .

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Help Me!
     Reply #36 - February 05, 2014, 04:59 PM

    To know about creation of Big Bang...take a look at pussy and penis..Dual Force Banging..how were we created.. The same thing to know, how were universe, earth, sun, moon etc created.... Cheesy



    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Help Me!
     Reply #37 - February 05, 2014, 05:30 PM

    So here are the verses about sun (&moon). Again word-to-word translations.

    Quote
    91:1-5 By the sun and its brightness, by the moon when it follows it, and the day when it displays it, and by the night when it covers it, and the heaven and He Who constructed it.

    Quote
    55:5 The sun and the moon by calculation.

    Keyword is biḥus'bānin=by calculation. This verse is hanging alone without context in the text, so can you Arabs explain the meaning?
    Quote
    36:37- And a sign for them is the night.We withdraw from it the day. Then behold! They those in darkness. And the sun runs to a term appointed for it. That is the decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing. And the moon, We have ordained for it phases until it returns like date stalk, the old. It is not permitted for the sun that it overtakes the moon and not the night outstrip the day but all in an orbit are floating.

    Keywords are:
    limus'taqarrin=to a term appointed. What does that exactly mean in Arabic? Some say it refers to
    the ending of sun.
    falakin=orbit. Some say it also means sphere, is that so? Does this passage in the classical Arabic refer to only one and same orbit or each in its own?
    yashabuna=they are floating. So does it mean totally floating or can it mean also turning?
    Quote
    And He subjected to you the sun and the moon constantly pursuing their courses and subjected for you the night and the day.

    daibayni=courses. Does this show that they both have different orbit?
    Quote
    10:5 He the One Who made the sun a shining light and the moon a reflected light and determined for it phases so that you might know number of days and the count of time.

    Keyword is nuran=reflected light. Does it really mean reflected light, Arabs?
    Quote
    39:5 He created the heaven and the earth in truth. He wraps the night over the day and wraps the day over the night. And he subjected the sun and the moon each running for a specified term.

    Tafsir Jalalayn says that the specified term means 'until the day of resurrection' so does this mean that these verses don't imply that sun is circling around the earth?

    So what do we make from these verses?

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #38 - February 05, 2014, 06:12 PM

    So here are the verses about sun (&moon). Again word-to-word translations.
    Keyword is biḥus'bānin=by calculation. This verse is hanging alone without context in the text, so can you Arabs explain the meaning?

    It's difficult to understand. I don't think it actually means "calculation". I would have thought it meant "In mind", as in "Not forgotten", but it's not a commonly used word today, though we do use similar words which can mean "calculation".

    Quote
    limus'taqarrin=to a term appointed. What does that exactly mean in Arabic? Some say it refers to
    the ending of sun.

    It means "place of rest", which never made sense to me until I realized that Mohammed believed that the Sun sets on the Earth itself. It can also mean "time of rest" though, but that's not the first thing that comes to mind when reading it. The phrase "Going to your place of rest" makes much more sense than "Going to your time of rest".

    Quote
    falakin=orbit. Some say it also means sphere, is that so? Does this passage in the classical Arabic refer to only one and same orbit or each in its own?

     The verse is basically saying "Everyone of them in an orbit". Is it one orbit, or different orbits? I couldn't tell. But, when the verse says that the sun is not meant to catch up to the moon, it implies that they are on the same level, though you could look at it another way and say that the reason that they won't catch up to one another is that they're on different levels, but that's kinda pushing it.

    Quote
    yashabuna=they are floating. So does it mean totally floating or can it mean also turning?

    The word simply means swimming. Can the word swimming imply turning? Not in any context that I can think of. This works the same way for Arabic and English.

    Quote
    daibayni=courses. Does this show that they both have different orbit?

    The word is not a commonly used word, so I couldn't tell you what it means exactly, aside from that it's a simple adjective describing the moon and sun themselves, not their orbits.


    Quote
    Keyword is nuran=reflected light. Does it really mean reflected light, Arabs?

    Nope, it's simply a gentle word for "light" (though even if it was, it's wouldn't have been impressive IMO. Lots of people already knew that the moon reflected light).

    Quote
    Tafsir Jalalayn says that the specified term means 'until the day of resurrection' so does this mean that these verses don't imply that sun is circling around the earth?

    I don't think it directly implies that, no. However, you'll notice that there is not a single reference to the Earth being in orbit as well, which is consistent with the idea of a flat earth that's as wide as the universe itself.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #39 - February 05, 2014, 06:27 PM

    So here are the verses about sun (&moon). Again word-to-word translations.
    Keyword is biḥus'bānin=by calculation. This verse is hanging alone without context in the text, so can you Arabs explain the meaning?Keywords are:


     limus'taqarrin=to a term appointed. What does that exactly mean in Arabic? Some say it refers to
    the ending of sun.


    This is a good question. It’s one I asked myself. I’m not sure what credibility you believe the ahadith to have, but there are several ahadith that address this verse specifically. They display an amazingly flawed understanding of the sun. Read them for yourself.

    Quote
    Abû Dharr al-Ghifârî, one of the Prophet Muhammad’s Companions, relates the following:
    The Prophet (peace be upon him) said to me: “O Abû Dharr! Do you know where the Sun goes when it sets?”

    I said: “Allah and His Messenger know best.”

    He said: “It goes until it prostrates beneath the Throne. Then it seeks permission and permission is granted to it. Soon it will prostrate and it will not be accepted from it, and seek permission and will not be granted permission. It will be said to it: ‘Go back where you came from.’ Then it will rise from its setting place. This is Allah’s statement: ‘And the Sun runs on to its place of settlement. That is the determination of the Mighty the Knowing. [Sûrah YâSîn: 38]’.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî (3199, 7424)]


    There are several more ahadith narrated with the same meaning. They prove that Muhammad thought the sun traversed the sky then rested under the throne of God at night. For obvious reasons, this is completely wrong. Further, it is a rip off of Syriac legend that states the same thing.



    Quote
    falakin=orbit. Some say it also means sphere, is that so? Does this passage in the classical Arabic refer to only one and same orbit or each in its own?


     Falak is a word, again, that implies floating along a course. It is why the word for ship, fulk  (like Noah’s Ark) also has a similar root.

    Quote
    yashabuna=they are floating. So does it mean totally floating or can it mean also turning?


    Ask any Arab what the verb sabaha/yasbahu means, and you will always get that it means to swim or float. It has nothing to do with spinning on an axis.

    Quote
    daibayni=courses. Does this show that they both have different orbit?

     The word Daib come comes from the word Daaba/Yadoobu which means to creep or move slowly. It implies that the sun and moon both move across the sky in a slow, creeping manner. Again, it is a perfect description for how the sun and moon appear to move from a human’s perspective on earth. Further, the use of daaibayn implies that they both crawl or creep in a similar fashion. As we know, in actuality the orbit of the moon around the earth could not be more different than the way the earth’s orbit around the sun makes the sun appear to “creep” across our sky.


    Quote
    Keyword is nuran=reflected light. Does it really mean reflected light, Arabs?


    No. Noor means light, plain and simple. It is the same word used to explain Allah himself: Allahu nooru-samaawaati wal-ardh - Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth. If noor meant reflected light, that verse would read “Allah is the reflected light of the heavens and the earth. Grin

    The idea that noor implies any sort of reflection is just a complete lie.

    Quote
    Tafsir Jalalayn says that the specified term means 'until the day of resurrection' so does this mean that these verses don't imply that sun is circling around the earth?

    So what do we make from these verses?


    See the hadith I quoted above. It gives a direct interpretation of the meaning of “mustaqarrin laha.” If we want to completely reject that hadith, which in the face of the overwhelming scientific evidence against it might not be a bad idea, then we are still left with a fairly obscure word, “mustaqarr”

    A mustaqarr is a place of final settling. It is derived from the root QRR as in Qaraar. For example, in Surah Ibrahim says: “28. Have you not seen those who have changed the Blessings of Allah into disbelief and caused their people to dwell in the house of destruction? 29. Hell, in which they will burn, - and what an evil place to settle in!”

    Qaraar is translated as “place to settle in” here. It has the same meaning as “mustaqarr.”

    The way Arabic works, though, a “place” to settle can also be translated as a “time” to settle. Therefore, mustaqarr would have the meaning of a final term. So, if we accept that definition then all the Qur’an is saying is that the sun will “run” until a time when it stops running. There isn’t much miraculous about that. In fact, it echoes the general apocalyptic, doomsday vibes that were going on at the time with doomsday prophets like Muhammad claiming that the stars were going to be extinguished and the earth was going to be destroyed.
     
  • Help Me!
     Reply #40 - February 05, 2014, 06:30 PM

    Ninja'd by Toona. What Toona said. Cheesy
  • Help Me!
     Reply #41 - February 05, 2014, 08:03 PM

    1. Really cool that you can explain so well! Are you Arab?
    2. Why it is now spelled mustaqarr instead of qaraar?
    3. What you think about your wording "It will run untill it a time it stops running"? Does it fit in the Quranic language that it runs around the earth or does it talk about the actual orbit of the sun?
    4. And what about word daybani? Why it is translated course if it means to crawl?
    5. In that context, does falakin mean one orbit or orbit for each?
    6. Can you link more hadiths of Muhammad of the setting of the sun?

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #42 - February 05, 2014, 08:23 PM

    Are you sure that daaba/yadoobu means crawling/creeping?
    To me it looks like in 35:45 it is used for every living thing, humans included.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #43 - February 05, 2014, 08:36 PM

    1. Really cool that you can explain so well! Are you Arab?
    2. Why it is now spelled mustaqarr instead of qaraar?
    3. What you think about your wording "It will run untill it a time it stops running"? Does it fit in the Quranic language that it runs around the earth or does it talk about the actual orbit of the sun?
    4. And what about word daybani? Why it is translated course if it means to crawl?
    5. In that context, does falakin mean one orbit or orbit for each?
    6. Can you link more hadiths of Muhammad of the setting of the sun?


    1. I’m not an Arab. I graduated from the Insititute of Arabic Language at the Islamic University of Madinah, KSA.

    2. They are two different words. They both come from the same root and have extremely similar meanings. I just wanted to show you how a word like that can be used in a different context.

    3. The clearest and  most obvious interpretations for all Qur’anic verses that describe the universe always fit perfectly into a geocentric model. Any other interpretation is always a stretch. If we look at the verse “wa-shamsu tajri li mustaqarrin laha,” a literal translation would be: And the sun runs to a place for seeking settlement for it. (I translated mustaqarr as “a place for seeking settlement.” In the form in which it appears, that is the most literal meaning. It fits perfectly into the ancient myth that the sun sought its resting place under God’s throne at night. Anything beyond that is, in my opinion, a stretch and not supported by the evidence.

    4. Daa’ib is a noun here. It is in the form of Faa’il, which means that it implies the noun is a “doer”—it is doiong the action of daaba/yadoobu. So, if daaba/yadoobu means to creep/crawl/move slowly, then Daa’ib means “Creeper/crawler/slow mover.” So, the verse is saying that the sun and the moon are slow movers. Again, we can understand this to mean that they move along their course orbit, hence the introduction of the word “course” –as one who crawls/moves slowly would understandably be crawling/moving along a course.

    5. Falak here gives the same sort of idea as what I described above. It implies a path or course or place for something to sail or swim within. It is understandable why it is used to describe the course that the sun, moon, and stars seem to take in the sky. It’s worth mentioning that the Arabs were quite skilled in celestial navigation, as were other early civilizations. The Qur’an talks a great deal about the way they used the stars to navigate through the land and the sea. They were aware of the plots  and courses the celestial bodies would take as they “swam” through the sky. These courses were called “falak.”

    6. هل تدري أين تغرب هذه ؟ قلت : الله و رسوله أعلم . قال : فإنها تغرب في عين حامية
    الراوي: أبو ذر الغفاري - خلاصة الدرجة: إسناده صحيح على شرط مسلم - المحدث: الألباني - المصدر: السلسلة الصحيحة - الصفحة أو الرقم: 2403

    Abu Tharr narrated:  The Prophet said, “Do you know where the sun sets?” I said, “Allah and his messenger know best.” He said, “Verily, it sets in a fetid spring.”

    There are more ahadith like this one that are similar to the hadith I quoted above. They all reinforce the Syriac legends of the sun setting into a fetid sea before passing under the throne of God and settling there for the night in prostration.

    Are you sure that daaba/yadoobu means crawling/creeping?
    To me it looks like in 35:45 it is used for every living thing, humans included.


    Grin This is one of the problems with using English letters for Arabic words. The verb Daaba/Yadoobu داب/يدوب means to flow or to crawl/creep/move slowly. The word Daabbah  دابة is a noun and means “creature.” Incidentally, the two words share a common root. Daabbah دابة implies that the creatures “crawl” or “move.”
  • Help Me!
     Reply #44 - February 05, 2014, 08:38 PM

    What kind of incompetent and short-sighted god would stake the clarity of its communication to mankind on this kind of text?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #45 - February 05, 2014, 08:44 PM

    A dark age desert god, I'd imagine. Smiley

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Help Me!
     Reply #46 - February 05, 2014, 08:48 PM

    Ok, thanks happymurtad!
    1. But in the first hadith, what does it mean when it says prostration under the throne?
    2. Does the Quran explain that earth is flat or can the word mean also "pressured"/something similar?
    3. Why the Quran says that God set the earth as a bed? What does it mean?

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #47 - February 05, 2014, 09:04 PM

    Quote
    What really hit me is the word used at the end, 'yasbahoon' coming from sa ba ha which simultaneously can mean either 'things that are floating' and also 'traveling/going far' links gorgeously with the word before, because another meaning of falak is an ark or ship.


    What you think about this?

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #48 - February 05, 2014, 09:06 PM

    the problem is that whatever that word means, in the quran it applies equally to both the sun and the moon.
    The quran does not appear to be aware that the moon is orbitting the earth, and the earth is orbitting the sun. It seems to think the sun is doing the same as the moon.

    in order for the quran to demonstrate advanced cosmological knowledge, it would first have to demonstrate that it is not behind it's own time, and the quran fails to do that. The quran does not hint at a heliocentric solar system.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #49 - February 05, 2014, 09:24 PM

    I would also like to know how Muhammad said that breastfeeding should go for 2 full years, which is what many groups such as UNICEF advise. How did he know?
    Is there any other advise before/around Muhammad's time which knew that 2 years is good?

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #50 - February 05, 2014, 09:52 PM

    Quote
    Your baby's last teeth are usually in place by his second year


    http://www.babycentre.co.uk/x1048887/when-will-my-baby-cut-his-first-tooth

  • Help Me!
     Reply #51 - February 05, 2014, 10:40 PM

    I would also like to know how Muhammad said that breastfeeding should go for 2 full years, which is what many groups such as UNICEF advise. How did he know?
    Is there any other advise before/around Muhammad's time which knew that 2 years is good?

    what.. what..whaaaaaat?
    what you are doing Siunaa Maailmaa ?
    what you are doing here in CEMB?  
    Milk .. breast .. breast  feeding.. Muhammad.. what is going on here?
    Does prophet of Islam need to have  a Ph. D.  in pediatrics to know  that   is good  for the kid  if mother breastfeeds the baby close to 2 years??

    Why are you insulting Prophet of Islam?  why are you asking such questions Siunaa?

    well Ok., You see Siunaa  forget prophet of Islam,  before man walked on earth man's evolutionary tree cousins  monkeys knows that. how long, how many months their babies need to be milk fed., that is not a big deal.. see this list of animals
    Quote
    SPECIES AGE OF OFFSPRING AT WEANING

    Rabbit   3 weeks
    Lion   3 - 6 months
    Zebra   8 - 13 months
    Dolphin   1,5 - 2 years
    Chimpanzee   3 years
    Elephant   3 - 4 years

     and I want you to read.. read Quran , read hadith and read  and read [url=http://www.gotquestions.org/weaning-child-Bible.html]bible story on that baby weaning

    After read hadith on Breast feeding of grown UNKNOWN man by a woman . That was not there in any cultures and that is new and that is apparently saying of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxodEBPoHPI

    Go goo read hadith on that..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Help Me!
     Reply #52 - February 06, 2014, 12:39 AM

    But what about this 'thumma':

    صنعت اليوم
     ثم ما صنعت أمس أعجب

    “What today came up made me amazed
    then’ what yesterday came up was even more amazing”


    Doesn't this prove that thumma doesn't mean 'then'?


    Incorrect use in English, it should be than not then. Than is in comparison, today and yesterday. "I am stronger than you"

    So what about this? Also how does it mention that we are of the water since majority of us is water.



    Made from water is not the same as containing water or requiring water. The first life was not created from H2O as in the sole material. Strictly speaking we are carbon based life not water based life. Some life forms use a small amount of water. Instead many use acidic liquids in place of water.

    All of the sun stuff still makes me think Mo thought the world was flat. The sun would not go to a resting place if he thought the word was a sphere. When it is night in the old world it is day time in the new world. Also by the fact he thought the sun running a course rather than the rotation of the earth that creates day and night. If the earth rotates faster, day and night shorten in duration.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #53 - February 06, 2014, 04:13 AM

    Siunaa, for your own sake, I hope you're on a wind-up. It must be hellish to tie your brain in knots over such petty and ambiguous details.

    This is Siuna in Nicaragua. They dig for gold there.

  • Help Me!
     Reply #54 - February 06, 2014, 11:31 AM

    Quote
    { وَهُوَ ٱلَّذِي خَلَقَ ٱلْلَّيْلَ وَٱلنَّهَارَ وَٱلشَّمْسَ وَٱلْقَمَرَ كُلٌّ فِي فَلَكٍ يَسْبَحُونَ }

    (And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon) He made the sun and the moon subservient. (They float, each in an orbit) each one of them rotate around its orbit.


    This is from Tafsir Ibn Abbas of 21:33.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #55 - February 06, 2014, 11:59 AM

    Siunaa, that's a very tendentious modern English translation of a 15th century Arabic work ( we know it's tendentious because of its translation of the underlying Quranic text and the use of the word orbit ) - by whom, when, where was it done? My guess is that the Arabic does not really say anything like "each one of them rotate(sic) around its orbit".

    Let's look at the whole passage, per Arberry.

    Have not the unbelievers then beheld that the heavens and earth were a mass all sewn up, and then We unstitched them and of water fashioned every living thing?
    Will they not believe?
    And we set in the earth firm mountains lest it should shake with them, and We set in it ravines to serve as ways, that haply so they may be guided; and we set up the heaven as a roof well-protected; yet still from our signs they are turning away.
    It is He who created the night and the day, the sun and the moon, each swimming in a sky.

  • Help Me!
     Reply #56 - February 06, 2014, 12:09 PM

    Can you post the tafseer in Arabic? My experience tells me that the English translations are often very... "generous"...

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Help Me!
     Reply #57 - February 06, 2014, 12:34 PM

    I don't know where to find it in Arabic. But I guess that you can find it easier in Arabic since you speak the language.
    It's Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn Abbas and from there the explanation of 21:33.
    Josephus, it's not written 15th century.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #58 - February 06, 2014, 01:05 PM


    It's Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn Abbas and from there the explanation of 21:33.

     http://main.altafsir.com/Books/IbnAbbas.pdf
    I don't know where to find it in Arabic. But I guess that you can find it easier in Arabic since you speak the language.

    Well In Arabic means it is Just Quran itself interpreted by IbnAbbas., How does that matter who explains Quran who writes tafsir on Quran??

    Do you like   Ibn Abbas Tafsir  Siunaa Maailmaa??   let us  read some from it..  You can get that Arabic  stuff here at http://main.altafsir.com/Ibn-Abbas.asp
    Quote
    Surah 66: Banning (al‐Tahrim)
     
    And of the surah in which Banning is mentioned, which is all Medinan and consists of 13 verses, 249 words and 1,060  letters:
     
     
    [66:1] And from his narration on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas that he said regarding the interpretation of Allah's  saying (O Prophet!): '(O Prophet!) i.e. Muhammad (pbuh). (Why bannest thou that which Allah hath made  lawful for thee) i.e. marrying Maria the Copt, the Mother of Ibrahim; that is because he had forbidden  himself from marrying her, (seeking to please thy wives) seeking the pleasure of your wives 'A'ishah and  Hafsah by forbidding yourself from marrying Maria the Copt? (And Allah is Forgiving) He forgives you,  (Merciful) about that oath.
     
    [66:2]  (Allah hath made lawful for you (Muslims) absolution from your oaths (of such a kind)) and so the Prophet  (pbuh) absolved himself from his oath and married Maria the Copt, (and Allah is your Protector) and Helper.  (He is the Knower) He knows that you forbade yourself Maria the Copt, (the Wise) in that which He enjoined  about the expiation of oaths.
     
    [66:3]  (When the Prophet confided a fact unto one of his wives) i.e. Hafsah (and when she afterward divulged it)  Hafsah divulged to 'A'ishah what the Prophet (pbuh) told her in confidence (and Allah apprised him thereof)  and Allah informed him that Hafsah informed 'A'ishah, (he made known (to her) part thereof) part of what  she said to 'A'ishah regarding the leadership of Abu Bakr and 'Umar; and it is said: about seeing Maria the  Copt on his own (and passed over part) he did not mention making forbidding Maria the Copt on himself nor  what he told her concerning the leadership of Abu Bakr and 'Umar after him, for he did not reproach him for  this. (And when he told it her) when the Prophet (pbuh) informed Hafsah about what she said to 'A'ishah  (she said) Hafsah said: (Who hath told thee) that I informed 'A'ishah? (He said) the Prophet (pbuh) said:  (The Knower, the Aware hath told me) what you divulged to 'A'ishah.
     
    [66:4]  (If ye twain turn unto Allah repentant) if you two, i.e. Hafsah and 'A'ishah, repent of hurting and disobeying  the Prophet (pbuh) ((ye have cause to do so) for your hearts desired (the ban)) for your hearts have  deviated from the Truth; (and if ye aid one another against him (Muhammad)) but if you help one another  to harm and disobey him (then lo! Allah, even He, is his protecting Friend) then Allah is his Protector and  Helper against you, (and Gabriel) will help him against you (and the righteous among the believers) all true  believers are helpers to him against you: Abu Bakr, 'Umar, 'Uthman, 'Ali, may Allah be well pleased with, and  all other true believers; (and furthermore the angels are his helpers) and the angels are with all these his  helpers against you.
      
     
    [66:5]  (It may happen) and this will surely happen (that his Lord, if he divorce you, will give him in your stead wives better than you) in obedience, (submissive (to Allah)) by stating it openly, (believing) true in their  faith both with their tongues and hearts, (pious) obedient to Allah and to their husband, (penitent) from  their sins, (inclined to fasting, widows) like Asiyah Bint Muzahim, the wife of Pharaoh (and maids) like Mary  daughter of Amran, the mother of Jesus.
     
    [66:6]  (O ye who believe) in Muhammad (pbuh) and the Qur'an! (Ward off from yourselves) and your folks (and  your families) and wives and children (a Fire) He says: teach them good manners and make them learn  goodness, and by doing so you will save them from the Fire (whereof the fuel is men and stones) of sulphur  which is the hottest of stones, (over which) over the Fire (are set angels) i.e. the angels in charge of the Fire  (strong) huge, (severe) very strong, (who resist not Allah in that which He commandeth them) regarding the  chastisement of the dwellers of the Fire, (but do) i.e. the angels in charge of the Fire (that which they are  commanded.
     
    [66:7]  (Then it will be said): O ye who disbelieve) in Muhammad (pbuh) and the Qur'an! (Make no excuses for  yourselves this day) for your excuses will not be accepted. (Ye are only being paid for what ye used to do)  and say in the life of the world.
     
    [66:8] (O ye who believe) in Muhammad (pbuh) and the Qur'an! (Turn unto Allah in sincere repentance!) repent of  your sins truly and sincerely from the bottom of your hearts. This means feeling regret in one's heart, asking  forgiveness with one's tongue and stop engaging in the particular sin one is repenting of with one's body  and conscience, intending never to return to it (It may be) “may be” from Allah denotes a necessity (that  your Lord will remit from you your evil deeds) forgive your sins through repentance (and bring you) in the  Hereafter (into Gardens beneath which) beneath their trees and habitations (rivers flow) rivers of wine,  water, honey and milk flow, (on the day) which is the Day of Judgement (when Allah will not abase the  Prophet) as He abases the disbelievers; He says: He will not torment the Prophet (pbuh) (and those who  believe with him) and will not torment those who believe in him, such as Abu Bakr and his believing  brothers. (Their light will run) will shine (before them) on the Bridge over the Fire (and on their right hands:  they will say) when the light of the hypocrites is put out: (Our Lord! Perfect our light for us) on the Bridge  over hell, (and forgive us) our sins! (Lo! Thou art Able to do all things) of completing our light and forgiving  us.
     
    [66:9]  (O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers) the disbelievers of Mecca with the sword until they accept faith  (and the hypocrites) of Medina with your tongue by rebuking and threatening them, (and be stern with  them) and be hard in words and deeds with both parties. (Hell will be their home) the destination of the  disbelievers and hypocrites will be the Fire, (a hapless journey's end) is Gehenna wherein they will end up.
     
    [66:10]  Allah warned 'A'ishah and Hafsah because they hurt the Prophet (pbuh) by mentioning the example of the  wives of Noah and Lot, saying: (Allah citeth) Allah explains (an example) a trait (for those who disbelieve)  by mentioning the two disbelieving women: (the wife of Noah) Wahilah (and the wife of Lot) Wa'ilah, (who  were under two of our righteous slaves) messengers (yet betrayed them) yet opposed them in religion,  displaying belief outwardly while hiding their disbelief inwardly, such that they kept their hypocrisy in their  hearts; but they did not betray their husbands in the sense that they committed adultery, for no wife of a  prophet had ever done this, (so that they the husbands availed them naught) benefited them naught    (against Allah) against the chastisement of Allah; i.e. the righteousness of their husbands did not benefit  them while they were disbelievers (and it was said (unto them): Enter the Fire) in the Hereafter (along with  those who enter) the Fire.
     
    [66:11]  Allah then encouraged them to repent and be good and follow the example of Asiyah Bint Muzahim and  Mary daughter of Amran, saying: (And Allah citeth an example) Allah explained the trait to be followed (for  those who believe) giving the example of two Muslim women: (the wife of Pharaoh) Asiyah Bint Muzahim  (when she said) regarding Pharaoh's torture of her: (My Lord! Build for me a home with Thee in the Garden)  so that Pharaoh's torture becomes bearable for me, (and deliver me from Pharaoh) from the religion of  Pharaoh (and his work) and his torture, (and deliver me from evil doing folk) the disbelievers. Thus the  disbelief of her husband did not harm her because of her faith and sincerity;
     
    [66:12]  (And Mary, daughter of Imran, whose body was chaste, therefore We breathed therein something of Our  Spirit) and so Gabriel breathed inside her garment and she became pregnant with Jesus. (And she put faith  in the words of her Lord) she believed in what Gabriel told her that he was the Messenger of Allah entrusted  with giving her a holy son (and His Scriptures) and she also believed in His Scriptures: the Torah, the Gospel  and all other Scriptures; it is also said this means: she believed in the words of her Lord that Jesus the son  of Mary will come into being by Allah saying “Be!” and he became a human being, and she also believed in  His Scripture: the Gospel, (and was of the obedient) in times of hardship and comfort; and it is also said that  this means: and she was obedient to He Who is far transcendent and majestic'.  And of the surah in which Sovereignty is mentioned, which is Meccan and consists of 30 verses, 335 words  and 1,313 letters:


    So does that tafsir from IbnAbbas on that whole chapter AT-TAHRIM make any sense to you as word of Allah/god Siunaa ?
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Help Me!
     Reply #59 - February 06, 2014, 02:49 PM

    Siunaa

    You do seem really intent on chasing shadows. But try to think about what it is that you're doing.

    You don't want to sit down and actually read the Quran, in physical book format, which would be the first really simple step for anyone who wants an evaluation of what the text is and isn't and a sense of what the text actually does and does not say. But at the same time you're angsting over what a few isolated fragments ripped out of context say, or more accurately, what some modern apologetic translations say those fragments say; but you have no basis for evaluating the accuracy or integrity of those translations, as you have no grounding in either Arabic, or more broadly, Semitic languages, or any grounding in the historically antecedent literatures/cultures that would help to make some sense of the Quran as a concrete historical phenomenon.

    Do you think that you're on a sound footing to allay your anxieties, or are your anxieties caused by your lack of a foundation? Coz you can get stuck in the loop you're in for eternity - the internet never ends, and apologetic discourses multiply far faster than you can ever hope to read or assimilate them. You can short circuit this quite easily by simply reading the book, which will demystify things immensely, and then you get to make your own mind up, or decide what you need to look at further for clarification. I'm sorry if I come off as sharp - but I draw the line at a refusal or unwillingness to actually sit down and read the book that is ostensibly the source of your problem.

    Forget about the scientific miracles discourse - common sense, simply reading the Quran itself, and basic historical knowledge tells us that it's bunk, bunk that is the product of the deepest anxiety ( far, far deeper than your own ) about the sacred status of the text in question.
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