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- Siunaa Maailmaa
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Reply #60 - February 06, 2014, 02:51 PM

I read the Quran, I just meant that I don't read a physical copy but copies online.

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
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Reply #61 - February 06, 2014, 02:55 PM

are you trying to work out whether the quran hints at the sun (or moon) rotating on it's own axis?
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Reply #62 - February 06, 2014, 02:59 PM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 06, 2014, 02:51 PM
I read the Quran,

well that is good.. that is good enough.. did you read all 114 chapters or did you read verses selectively here and there Siunaa Maailmaa?

So what is your opinion on the whole, Quran as the word of Allah/God?

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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #63 - February 06, 2014, 03:08 PM

Quote from: dr_sloth on February 06, 2014, 02:55 PM
are you trying to work out whether the quran hints at the sun (or moon) rotating on it's own axis?

Yes.

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
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Reply #64 - February 06, 2014, 03:09 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on February 06, 2014, 02:59 PM
well that is good.. that is good enough.. did you read all 114 chapters or did you read verses selectively here and there Siunaa Maailmaa?

So what is your opinion on the whole, Quran as the word of Allah/God?

Not every chapter but I've read it without taking stuff here and there.
I don't find it to be word of God but the idea of hell haunts me and shrinks my brain.

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
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Reply #65 - February 06, 2014, 03:11 PM

if the quran has this information, then why did no Muslim ever suggest such a thing until well after the kuffar already worked these things out?
Countless man hours of examining every letter and dot of the quran, for centuries, and not a single Muslim ever referenced this idea anywhere.

How can Allah's book be so hopeless at conveying the information it contains that literally nobody even was aware of this information's existence?
Surely Allah knows that it is very easy for humans with our limited brains, to misinterpret a piece of text, and that rational people would rightly be skeptical of reading too much into any text. In which case, he cannot ever have hoped to convince a rational person with this particular 'scientific miracle'. If we grant the argument, and assume that this information really is in the quran, then we can still only conclude that any rational person is not the intended audience of this verse. Wrong sector of the market.

If this information is really there, why does it look so much like it is not there? So much so that almost all translations do not state it. How can we have a hope of really judging the quran if Allah is intentionally being confusing? How can we have any hope of understanding a divinely incomprehensible verse? Why bother worrying about failing something that you never had any chance of succeeding in in the first place?

If this information is really there, why does it look not only so much like it is absent, but also so much like a prescientific geocentric view of the universe, complete with the ubiquitous '7 heavens' myth?

If this information really is there, then Allah has done a very good job of hiding it. Do not worry about not being able to find something god has hidden.
No reasonable god would demand a person to pass this impossible test, and any unreasonable god isn't worthy of worship anyway.
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Reply #66 - February 06, 2014, 03:28 PM

Siunaa

Perhaps I'm just old skool, but please get a physical copy - Arberry, Pickthall, or any of the reputable translators - and sit down and read it. You get the benefit of a consistent translation that way, you don't get distracted and go haring off after explanations at every difficulty, and you get to read the book in a structured way, one Surah after another, each one in its entirety.

No-one in nearly 1400 years of unselfconscious reading of the Quran came up with the idea that it was giving a scientific explanation of embryology or was making cosmological assertions that conformed to contemporary 20th century scientific understandings - all of this had to be imported into the text after the fact. Let's be honest here - had you been guided into this way of reading the Quran before you ever read a Surah?
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Reply #67 - February 06, 2014, 03:32 PM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 06, 2014, 03:09 PM
Not every chapter but I've read it without taking stuff here and there.

I didn't get that., you mean to say you read WHOLE CHAPTER and tried to understand it?? Anyways I read Quran number of times " as word of Allah/God and as book. It is indeed difficult book to decipher and figure out who is saying what and why? It is like that George Bernard Shaw's "Doctor's Dilemma" without you knowing who is saying what & to whom .

Any way, please read again at This link.. Me reading whole Quran again.. I guess I did some 38 chapters ..

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I don't find it to be word of God

That is ok, do you find ANY BOOK ON THIS EARTH AS WORD OF GOD?
Quote
but the idea of hell haunts me and shrinks my brain.

Then why are you going around the verses which talks about so called geology/biology/physiology and physics of that time?

Any ways, If it is a fear about "hell in Quran" then let us open a thread on "HELL IN QURAN" and discuss all the verses in it Siunaa. I am just curious here., Did you try to convert into Islam or Are you already a Muslim and teaching Quran as hafiz in some school?

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #68 - February 06, 2014, 03:46 PM

Nah, I read it in context. I usually did it like this:
I went to quran.com, then chose there Muhsin Khan (which is the best according to many muslims), Sahih International, Finnish translation and then sometimes Pickthall and Yusuf Ali. I stopped using the Finnish translation because it didn't even look like the same book.
Just for example, the first Surah and three first verses and then translation of those to English:

Aloitan JUMALAN, laupiaan Armahtajan, nimeen.
Ylistys Jumalalle, maailmojen Valtiaalle,
armolahjojen Antajalle, laupiaalle Ohjaajalle ja Siunaajalle,

I start in GOD's, merciful Forgiver's, name.
Praise to God, worlds' Ruler,
charisma (not the personal charisma but in the Christian way) Giver, merciful Director and Blesser.

I was like what is this. The author of the translation doesn't seem to care.

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
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Reply #69 - February 06, 2014, 04:12 PM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 06, 2014, 03:46 PM
Nah, I read it in context. I usually did it like this:
I went to quran.com, then chose there Muhsin Khan (which is the best according to many muslims), Sahih International, Finnish translation and then sometimes Pickthall and Yusuf Ali.

"I read it in context" and read them as parables, is the key to read these so-called religious books Siunaa Maailmaa. When you say "read it in context", it means it has some history and there is an event that may have taken place during the revelation of some verse. I am glad you are reading Quran in that way.
Quote
I stopped using the Finnish translation because it didn't even look like the same book.
Just for example, the first Surah and three first verses and then translation of those to English:

Quote
Aloitan JUMALAN, laupiaan Armahtajan, nimeen.
Ylistys Jumalalle, maailmojen Valtiaalle,
armolahjojen Antajalle, laupiaalle Ohjaajalle ja Siunaajalle,

I start in GOD's, merciful Forgiver's, name.
Praise to God, worlds' Ruler,
charisma (not the personal charisma but in the Christian way) Giver, merciful Director and Blesser.

I was like what is this. The author of the translation doesn't seem to care.

That is a very interesting point you are raising Siunaa., It is clear these translations and re-translations in to different languages will take many verses of Quran far away from its original Arabic text. I think if some one really like to understand Quran, then best thing to do for him/her is, to stick to English/Arabic or any other Language/Arabic/English as way to read and understand Quran.

Now I am curious whether you could read those 12 verse in chapter AT-TAHRIM(chapter-66 in the book ) in your language and translate that to ENGLISH the way you understand it.

By the way, the 1st Surah in your post is actually surah-5 "Al-Fatehah" in the revelation order but compiled by SOME FOOLS as Surah-1 in the book. It has 7 verses and is a Meccan surah, allegedly revealed between 1 to 5th year of alleged Prophet's mission.

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I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #70 - February 06, 2014, 05:12 PM

So as I was now reading the Quran I came up with these questions:

1. Quran 18:17
Quote
And thou mightest have seen the sun when it rose move away from their cave to the right, and when it set go past them on the left, and they were in the cleft thereof. That was (one) of the portents of Allah. He whom Allah guideth, he indeed is led aright, and he whom He sendeth astray, for him thou wilt not find a guiding friend.

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Thou wouldst have seen the sun, when it rose, declining to the right from their Cave, and when it set, turning away from them to the left, while they lay in the open space in the midst of the Cave. Such are among the Signs of Allah: He whom Allah, guides is rightly guided; but he whom Allah leaves to stray,- for him wilt thou find no protector to lead him to the Right Way.

Quote
And you might have seen the sun, when it rose, declining to the right from their Cave, and when it set, turning away from them to the left, while they lay in the midst of the Cave. That is (one) of the Ayat (proofs, evidences, signs) of Allah. He whom Allah guides, is rightly guided; but he whom He sends astray, for him you will find no Wali (guiding friend) to lead him (to the right Path).

How can the sun rise declining to the right and when it set, turning away from them to the left?
Does that have something to do with rotation of the earth?

2. Quran 18:47
Quote
And (remember) the Day We shall cause the mountains to pass away (like clouds of dust), and you will see the earth as a levelled plain, and we shall gather them all together so as to leave not one of them behind.

Quote
And (bethink you of) the Day when we remove the hills and ye see the earth emerging, and We gather them together so as to leave not one of them behind.

Quote
One Day We shall remove the mountains, and thou wilt see the earth as a level stretch, and We shall gather them, all together, nor shall We leave out any one of them.

Doesn't this imply that the earth is not flat yet and it will become flat in the last days, therefore proving that the Quran doesn't teach about flat earth?

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
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Reply #71 - February 06, 2014, 06:01 PM

You can stay up all night trying to find deeper meanings in vague and obscure verses. If you try hard enough, you’ll likely find something that sounds kind of like something we now know to be true thanks to modern science, provided you tilt your head and squint your eyes just right.

What is always true about the Qur’an, however, is that it is never incompatible with a geocentric view of the universe. Every single verse in the Qur’an that describes the ‘heavens’ fits perfectly in with the understandings of Muhammad’s primitive desert society. There are no exceptions to this.

It’s important to realize this. Any credible book offering insights into the universe from an all knowing creator would not be compatible with a completely flawed model.

Rather than trying to find hidden meanings in what the Qur’an says, it is far more telling to look at the things it omits. It could have told us that the sun was at the center of our solar system with 4 rocky planets and 4 gaseous planets orbiting it, and that Pluto and other orbiting bodies were there too.

It could have told us that the sun is just a star among stars. It could have described, in poetic detail, the formation and destruction of the stars resulting in the elements of the universe. It could have spoken about supernovae, black holes, red dwarfs, and dark matter. It could have told us about Jupiter’s moons or Saturn’s rings.

It could have told us that the prominent star Sirius is actually two stars, Sirius A and Sirius B.

It could have explained the force of gravity in relation to mass.

And so on.

Instead, we have the heavens described in exactly the way we would expect them to be described by a 7th century observer gazing upwards from the desert floor, drawing from the myths, legends, and flawed understandings of the time. Vague, obscure, and incorrect utterances.

If this is the best Allah can do, then he is probably not God.
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Reply #72 - February 06, 2014, 06:11 PM

You'll have a even better chance discovering the deeper meanings of the quran with having an LSD trip while reading it Joke aside. I said it once before, but I reaalllllyyyy see myself in you Siunaa during my "search period". And just like you, I knew that Islam was just bullshit but the whole hell and punishment thing scared me to bits. So eventually I succumbed to the dawaganda and indoctrination and 9 years later I say FML for wasting so much time on something I knew was shit from the get-go.

"The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
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Reply #73 - February 06, 2014, 06:13 PM

Good words! I feel like my anxiety is getting smaller the more I speak with you (plural), read the Quran and have you (plural) as my support, some kind of brother/sisterhood in lack of faith
But can you still explain how you understand these three:

1.
Quran 18:17 –
Quran 18:47 – When it speaks as if the earth is flattened when mountains are taken away from it. As fluent Arabic speaker you might have insight.
Hadith – When Mo says that the sun prostrates under the throne instead of under the earth.

edit: this was for happymurtad, but I love you too Cornflower!

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
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Reply #74 - February 06, 2014, 06:34 PM

The enterprise of pushing miracle claims is not about explaining the universe or expanding the knowledge base, it's about defending the scripture. It's about trying to keep the defunct observations of primitive people relevant in the modern age. It's about trying to find something within that huge volume of ancient scribblings that sounds slightly like a more modern and enlightened insight.

Understand that this method works backwards. It is a retrograde process of thought. Degenerate thinking. The actual insights are found independent of Islam, nothing to do with the scripture, instead drawn from the cutting edge of the sciences and brightest minds who do the work to unravel the mysteries of the universe. The miracle pushers swoop in after the work is done with their crude, oversimplified, layperson grasp of that insight. They find a segment of their scripture that can easily be divorced from its context, that has a vague analogous quality to the insight, that sorta, kinda, ambiguously has a superficial similarity to that insight. Voilà! The scripture contained this insight all along!

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Reply #75 - February 06, 2014, 07:03 PM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 06, 2014, 06:13 PM
Good words! I feel like my anxiety is getting smaller the more I speak with you (plural), read the Quran and have you (plural) as my support, some kind of brother/sisterhood in lack of faith
But can you still explain how you understand these three:

Hadith – When Mo says that the sun prostrates under the throne instead of under the earth.

edit: this was for happymurtad, but I love you too Cornflower!

I can only really tell you what the verses say. As for what they mean, then this is a matter of interpretation. Muslims have been debating what phrases like “Allah’s throne” mean for centuries. Salafies will tell you that it is a physical throne that suits the majesty of Allah, that he rose over in a manner known only to him. Other groups take these descriptions figuratively to mean Allah’s lordship and power. Still, others interpret it to mean all of creation. There are many ahadith that discuss this topic. In my view, they all seem to reinforce the idea of a geocentric, vertical universe with the earth at the bottom, the sun moon and stars orbiting it through the seven heavens stacked above it, all topped by the footstool and thrown of Allah.

Quote
1.
Quran 18:17 –
Quran 18:47 – When it speaks as if the earth is flattened when mountains are taken away from it. As fluent Arabic speaker you might have insight.

Again, this is open to interpretation. What I personally gather from the verse is the idea that Muhammad envisioned the Day of Judgment as taking place on a vast, flat plain without any mountains. There are many verses to that effect. One in particular I’m thinking of is 18:47. The idea seems to me to be enforcing the belief that there will be nowhere to hide on the Day of Judgment. No mountains, no caves, no valleys, all are supposed to be in plain sight of Allah. It does not give any new or modern insight into the functioning of the universe.

Pay close attention to what Ishina said.
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Reply #76 - February 06, 2014, 07:08 PM

Thanks. But what does it say in Arabic? I could find in 18:47 barizatan=a leveled plain.
So can you give your Arabic insight to it?
Do you have hadiths about the throne of Allah?

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
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Reply #77 - February 06, 2014, 07:22 PM

1.Wa 2. yawma 3.nusayyirul 4. jibaala 5.wa 6.tara 7.–l ardha 8.baarizatan 9. wa 10.hasharnaahum 11. falam nughaadir 12.minhum 13. ahadan

1.And 2.the day 3.we remove the 4.mountains 5.and 6.you see 7.the earth 8.brazen 9. and 10.we gather them 11. so we do not miss 12.of them 13. anyone.

As for the ahadith about the throne of Allah, google around. There are a bunch. I think the website wikiislam has a section where they gather all the geocentric verses and ahadith together. It's funny stuff to read if you are bored. I'm a little busy right now.
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Reply #78 - February 06, 2014, 07:30 PM

And as you are reading through Surah 18, keep reading about Thul Qarnain. Check out all the nonsense about the sun setting in a fetid spring and rising over a people who had no shelter from it. It is literally straight out of the Syriac Alexander legend.

Keep going until you read about the two tribes of marauding trolls or gnomes or whatever they were, Gog and Magog, and how they are still supposedly alive trapped behind a giant, copper clad, Iron wall that no one has ever discovered. Again, the legend is ripped completely from Syriac legend.

A few pages earlier, you will have read a sad attempt at recounting the Syriac myth of the 7 sleepers, complete with all sorts of confused details and threats.

The Qur’an is a plagiarism, and not a remarkable one at that. It manages to get the facts wrong or to be vague even in the myths it copies.

Mind you as well that the “revelation” of this Surah took Muhammad’s God half a month after he was first asked to produce it. Fishy? Me thinks so.
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Reply #79 - February 06, 2014, 09:18 PM

1. Is there proof that the Quran story is based on the Syriac legend and not the other way around?
2. That Muhammad ('s God) needed half a month to produce the story sounds very fishy but is it based on anything?
3. What does the Quran 18:17 mean when it's talking about sunrise/sunset. I don't really get it.
4. What about the 18:25, when it says: "They remained in their cave for 300 years and add 9."
Is it talking about solar/lunar years?

Thanks to you (plural. damn why does English have word 'you' for both singular and plural...), my especially loved ones (family) and to the fact that I got OCD-help, I'm feeling better. But the road up is still long.

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
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Reply #80 - February 06, 2014, 09:34 PM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 06, 2014, 09:18 PM
1. Is there proof that the Quran story is based on the Syriac legend and not the other way around?

I am not sure you can get this book.,

"Gog and Magog in Early Eastern Christian and Islamic Sources - N. Di Cosmo, D. Deweese, C. Humphrey"

but it gives you detailed historical information on that story.. and it can never be other way around...

Quote
2. That Muhammad ('s God) needed half a month to produce the story sounds very fishy but is it based on anything?

You have to realize that alleged Prophet of Islam DID NOT write Quran., Quran is a book put together way after the death of Muhammad. That time is any where between 20 to 100 years after his death...

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Reply #81 - February 06, 2014, 09:54 PM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 06, 2014, 09:18 PM
1. Is there proof that the Quran story is based on the Syriac legend and not the other way around?

Which came first?

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #82 - February 06, 2014, 10:05 PM

Quote
Which came first?

Yes. And if the Syriac was first, is there proof that it wasn't edited after Islam to similar of the one in the Quran?

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
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Reply #83 - February 06, 2014, 10:14 PM

Proof that what wasn't edited?

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Reply #84 - February 06, 2014, 11:13 PM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 06, 2014, 10:05 PM
Yes. And if the Syriac was first, is there proof that it wasn't edited after Islam to similar of the one in the Quran?

Siunaa Maailmaa please go to this link http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=21061.0

and watch all what is there at that link., that will be immensely useful and helpful for you and many others.,

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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #85 - February 06, 2014, 11:59 PM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 06, 2014, 10:05 PM
Yes. And if the Syriac was first, is there proof that it wasn't edited after Islam to similar of the one in the Quran?

If islam didn't make it up first, does that mean what did make it up first is real?

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #86 - February 07, 2014, 01:30 AM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 06, 2014, 09:18 PM
Thanks to you (plural. damn why does English have word 'you' for both singular and plural...) ...

If the context doesn't make it clear just add the word "all".

e.g. Thanks to you all for your patience.
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Reply #87 - February 07, 2014, 04:08 AM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 06, 2014, 05:12 PM
So as I was now reading the Quran I came up with these questions:

1. Quran 18:17How can the sun rise declining to the right and when it set, turning away from them to the left?
Does that have something to do with rotation of the earth?

2. Quran 18:47Doesn't this imply that the earth is not flat yet and it will become flat in the last days, therefore proving that the Quran doesn't teach about flat earth?

1. Simply answer. Face north when the sun is rising, is it to your right? Face north when it is setting, is it to your left. This isn't rocket science or something anyone could not do or has never done before. If this is verse is supposed to be some sort of proof, it is only proof that Mo could turn and tell left from right...

2. Judgement day signs, this isn't judgement day so these signs mean nothing without that context.

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 06, 2014, 09:18 PM
1. Is there proof that the Quran story is based on the Syriac legend and not the other way around?
2. That Muhammad ('s God) needed half a month to produce the story sounds very fishy but is it based on anything?
3. What does the Quran 18:17 mean when it's talking about sunrise/sunset. I don't really get it.
4. What about the 18:25, when it says: "They remained in their cave for 300 years and add 9."
Is it talking about solar/lunar years?

Thanks to you (plural. damn why does English have word 'you' for both singular and plural...), my especially loved ones (family) and to the fact that I got OCD-help, I'm feeling better. But the road up is still long.

1. The oldest text version was Historia Alexandri Magni which is from the 4th century. This predates Islam by a few centuries.
2. Ibn Ishaq account shows how these verses were revealed. https://archive.org/details/IbnIshaq-SiratRasulAllah-translatorA.Guillaume pp 136-140 (zip 92-94) It took fifteen days for Mo to answer them after he said he would answer them the next day. The excuse used is "All in God's good time". However 15 days is enough time to find the answers from human sources. There were pre-Islamic poetry about Alexander. Obviously the Jews know about this story as they asked. It is not as if this story was known only to a select few. Mo's answer was right inline with preexisting stories, no new elements of the core story. Just an Islamic twist on the story nothing more.
3. It says nothing that anyone that couldn't observe on their own. The rest is the standard religious bluster of disbelievers being led astray which is just confirmation bias for the believers.
4. Is about the companions of the cave or youths that hid there. It is about people which followed Allah before Mo that later confirmed his claims to prophethood.
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Reply #88 - February 07, 2014, 11:47 AM

Quote from: bogart
1. Simply answer. Face north when the sun is rising, is it to your right? Face north when it is setting, is it to your left. This isn't rocket science or something anyone could not do or has never done before. If this is verse is supposed to be some sort of proof, it is only proof that Mo could turn and tell left from right...

But I don't get the whole of it because of those 'declining' while rising. What does it mean?
Quote
And you might have seen the sun, when it rose, declining to the right from their Cave, and when it set, turning away from them to the left, while they lay in the midst of the Cave. That is (one) of the Ayat (proofs, evidences, signs) of Allah. He whom Allah guides, is rightly guided; but he whom He sends astray, for him you will find no Wali (guiding friend) to lead him (to the right Path).

Quote from: bogart
1. The oldest text version was Historia Alexandri Magni which is from the 4th century. This predates Islam by a few centuries.

Wikipedia states that the oldest version is dated back to 3rd century but that it has been changed multiple times.
So do we know that the stories included in the Quran existed before Islam?
I've also heard that the person in the Quran is actually Cyrus the Great.

Quote from: happymurtad
1.Wa 2. yawma 3.nusayyirul 4. jibaala 5.wa 6.tara 7.–l ardha 8.baarizatan 9. wa 10.hasharnaahum 11. falam nughaadir 12.minhum 13. ahadan

1.And 2.the day 3.we remove the 4.mountains 5.and 6.you see 7.the earth 8.brazen 9. and 10.we gather them 11. so we do not miss 12.of them 13. anyone.

8. Brazen? Why it is translated as 'leveled plain' in the Quran Arabic Corpus? Does it have multiple meanings?

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
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Reply #89 - February 07, 2014, 02:29 PM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 07, 2014, 11:47 AM
But I don't get the whole of it because of those 'declining' while rising. What does it mean?
Wikipedia states that the oldest version is dated back to 3rd century but that it has been changed multiple times.
So do we know that the stories included in the Quran existed before Islam?
I've also heard that the person in the Quran is actually Cyrus the Great.

8. Brazen? Why it is translated as 'leveled plain' in the Quran Arabic Corpus? Does it have multiple meanings?

The Islamic version is close the the Greek version, which is before the modifications. This story is mirrored by the Islam. Go read the story. Persian elements are names of figures and places. However the core story is the same. So yes we know these stories were around before Islam to the point where we can identify the source which are Christian and Persian. Islams version is just a modification of the romance which combined two source stories into one.

It could be Cyrus as well. However Cyrus doesn't lend any support to Islam's claims based on this story. Cyrus is a figure featured heavily in both Judaism and Christianity. He is the grounding for one argument for rejection of Jesus as the messiah.

Declining means moving away from the cave not the sun declining itself. If you look at other English translations you will see the replacement of decline with incline. Also the word rose shows declining is not meant to be taken as a sun descending but it's position in relation to the cave.
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