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- josephus
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Reply #90 - February 07, 2014, 04:32 PM

Siunaa

The story of the sleepers of Ephesus was already well-travelled prior to the composition and compilation of the Quran. There's a version of it given by Gregory of Tours ( died in 594, in France, writer of the History of the Franks) in a text called the Glory of the Martyrs. His version of the story is derived from that of Jacob of Sarug ( mid-5th century ). Can you explain how Gregory of Tours, in France, who died some 20 years prior to the first revelation of the Quran, according to the conventional Islamic datings, could have told the story, based on a prior Syrian source, or was he in fact a time-traveller? Or alternatively, the story in the Quran is a VERSION of an already existent narrative.

But the story doesn't start there - there are Greek pagan and Jewish versions that antedate the legend. The Greek story is about Epimenedes the Cretan ( a magical figure in his own right ) who fell asleep in a cave for 57 years - told by Diogenes Laertius, and also alluded to by Pausanias. Then there are the Talmudic stories of Choni (2nd or 3rd century CE )- who fell asleep and awoke to discover that a new temple had been built in Jerusalem - that seem to derive from the same literary tradition as the story in 4th Baruch, of a certain Abimelech, who fell asleep and awoke 70, or 66, or 68 years later also to discover that there was a new temple in Jerusalem.

The Quranic version repeats the same basic motifs that are already encountered in prior narratives. It also adds its own distinctive element - the presence of a dog.
- RamiRustom
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Reply #91 - February 07, 2014, 06:46 PM

Hi Siunaa Maailmaa

I'm kinda confused about the point of this thread. I mean, what problem are you trying to solve?

Early on in your OP you mentioned your feelings, but then immediately you changed the subject to supposed proofs in the Quran.

So it seems to me that you haven't explained what exactly the problem is.

Something I'm wondering about this is: Why do you believe that there exists a god or gods?

Is it ONLY because you (currently) believe the claim that there is a book that couldn't have been created by humans? Or do you have other reasons that you believe in god?
- Siunaa Maailmaa
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Reply #92 - February 07, 2014, 11:44 PM

Hi, good question!
So: I don't really believe in God/gods and I don't believe the Quran but when I leave Islam behind I will always start wondering about it "What if...what if". So I just wanted to make a thread where I both tell my feelings, get some support, get "therapy" and also can look at this dawahganda with my sisters/brothers. Alone I feel like a leaf in wind flying everywhere and this religious stuff seems overwhelming but CEMB helps me to get over my fears.

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
- yeezevee
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Reply #93 - February 08, 2014, 12:13 AM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 07, 2014, 11:44 PM
Hi, good question!
So: I don't really believe in God/gods and I don't believe the Quran but when I leave Islam behind I will always start wondering about it "What if...what if". ..........

I don't get a word of that statement Siunaa Maailmaa. How can you believe in Hell or Islamic hell when you don't really believe in God/gods and you don't believe the Quran ?

and what do you mean by "when I leave Islam behind"??., Thae question of leaving Islam doesn't arise when you say that you don't believe in Quran. There will not be any Islam left in a person without he/she believing in Quran Siunaa..

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Siunaa Maailmaa
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Reply #94 - February 08, 2014, 12:21 AM

So now I have couple more questions that bother me. I want to say that I've gotten better last few days thanks to all of you!
So...

1. Another comes from Surah 30. In it is said:
"The Romans (Byzantine) have been defeated in lowest land but after their defeat they will overcome. Within three to nine years."
This is written in 620 and if I've understood correctly, Byzantine became victorious in 627 when most didn't believe it to happen. So how can this be explained besides "miracle"? Impressive thing is also the mention of lowest land because the battles happened mostly in the close areas of Dead Sea which is lowest land in the world.

2. This has to do with mountains. I'm sorry but clock is 2:17 (at night) so I might make many spelling errors.
So the Quran says that the mountains are set as pegs and... well now that I think I might just put link on this kind of claim. It's short article and shouldn't be much of work to read:
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/215/

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me

Help Me!

Reply #95 - February 08, 2014, 12:30 AM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 08, 2014, 12:21 AM

So now I have couple more questions that bother me. I want to say that I've gotten better last few days thanks to all of you!
So...

1. Another comes from Surah 30. In it is said:
"The Romans (Byzantine) have been defeated in lowest land but after their defeat they will overcome. Within three to nine years."
This is written in 620 and if I've understood correctly, Byzantine became victorious in 627 when most didn't believe it to happen. So how can this be explained besides "miracle"? Impressive thing is also the mention of lowest land because the battles happened mostly in the close areas of Dead Sea which is lowest land in the world.

hello Siunaa Maailmaa, first let us read those alleged four verses on that Rome defeat/success that is allegedly supposed to prophesied by prophet of Islam in Quran.

Quote

030.002
YUSUFALI: The Roman Empire has been defeated-
PICKTHAL: The Romans have been defeated
SHAKIR: The Romans are vanquished,

030.003
YUSUFALI: In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-
PICKTHAL: In the nearer land, and they, after their defeat will be victorious
SHAKIR: In a near land, and they, after being vanquished, shall overcome,

030.004
YUSUFALI: Within a few years. With Allah is the Decision, in the past and in the Future: on that Day shall the Believers rejoice-
PICKTHAL: Within ten years - Allah's is the command in the former case and in the latter - and in that day believers will rejoice
SHAKIR: Within a few years. Allah's is the command before and after; and on that day the believers shall rejoice,

that is what you have and now let me give the history of Romans where the The Romans have been allegedly defeated in low lands ..near land ..whatever land..

Quote

753 BC: Roma (Rome) is founded by Romulus
750 BC: Greeks establish a colony at Cuma
750 BC: first Etruscan inscriptions

616 BC: Tarquinius I becomes an Etruscan king of Roma 
600 BC: Etruscans build the colossal tombs of Cerveteri 
600 BC: the Forum is built 
600 BC: oldest Latin inscriptions 
578 BC: Tarquinius Priscus builds the Cloaca Maxima, the first sewer 
550 BC: Servius Tullius builds city walls 
494 BC: Plebeians rebel against the patricians, the beginning of the class wars 
486 BC: The consul Spurius Cassius proposes land redistribution to the poor but the patricians murder him 
474 BC: the Greeks defeat the Etruscans at Cuma 
509 BC: the last king is expelled and Roma becomes a republic 
450 BC: The Twelve Tables of the Roman law re enacted 
396 BC: Roma conquers the Etruscan city of Veii 
387 BC: the Gauls/Celts sack Roma 
376 BC: Licinius and Sextius propose laws to appease the Plebeians but the Senate postpones them indefinitely 
367 BC: Licinius' laws are finally enacted 
366 BC: Lucius Sextius becomes the first plebeian consul 
343 BC: Rome fights the Samnites 
341 BC: Rome conquers Campania from the Samnites with its capital of Capua 
340 BC: Rome fights the Latin League, including the Samnites 
338 BC: Rome dissolves and annexes the Latin League 
326 BC: the Circus Maximus is built 
326 BC: A new war begins against the Samnites 
321 BC: At the Battle of Caudine Forks Rome wins the Second Samnite War against the Samnites 
312 BC: the Via Appia is begun 
312 BC: the first aqueduct, the Aqua Appia, is built 
308 BC: Roma conquers the Etruscan city of Tarquinia 
300 BC: A plebeian rises to priesthood for the first time 
298 BC: Roma goes to war against the Samnites again 
295 BC: Roma defeats the Samnites at Sentinum 
295 BC: Roma defeats the Gauls/Celts in northern Italy 
287 BC: The Lex Hortensia makes plebiscites (laws passed by the Assembly in which plebeians outnumber patricians) binding for the Senate of the patricians 
283 BC: Roma establishes Gallia Cisalpina (Cisalpine Gaul) in nothern Italy 
280 BC: Roma issues coins 
280 BC: Roma is defeated by Pyrrhus of Epirus at Heraclea 
275 BC: Roma defeats Pyrrhus and conquers most of southern Italy 
272 BC: a second aqueduct, the Anio Vetus, is built 
272 BC: The Greek colony of Tarentum surrenders to Roma and soon all the remaining Greek colonies of southern Italy follow suit 
264 BC: Roma and Carthage fight the first Punic war 
264 BC: the Romans destroy the last vestiges of the Etruscan civilization (Volsinies) 
260 BC: the Roman senate authorizes the construction of a navy of triremes 
232 BC: Gaius Flaminius enacts an agrarian law ceding land of Northern Italy to poorer classes of citizens 
225 BC: the Gauls invade Rome 
222 BC: the invading Gauls are defeated 
221 BC: the Circus Flaminius 
220 BC: A law forbids senators from entering into business 
218 BC: Hannibal invades Italy and the Gauls of northern Italy ally with him 
214 BC: War machines designed by Greek mathematician Archimedes save the city of Syracuse, an ally of Carthage, from a Roman naval attack 
207 BC: Rome defeats Carthage's Hannibal at the Metaurus river 
203 BC: Roma organizes the northern colonies of Placentia and Cremona in the territory of the Gauls 
202 BC: Scipio defeats Hannibal and Roma annexes Spain 
196 BC: The slaves of Etruria rebel 
195 BC: The Celts of Spain rebel 
189 BC: Antiochus III, king of the Seleucids, is defeated at the battle of Magnesia and surrenders his possessions in Europe and Asia Minor 
185 BC: The slaves of Apulia rebel 
184 BC: the Basilica Porcia 
181 BC: Aquileia is founded on the head of the Adriatic 
181 BC: the Gauls of northern Italy are definitely subjugated 
175 BC: the Celts of Spain are subjugated 
171 BC: The Third Macedonian War begins when Perseus attacks Roma 
167 BC: At the end of the Third Macedonian War the romans divide Macedonia into four republics 
154 BC: The tribes of Lusitania rebel against Roma 
151 BC: Roman troops massacre Celts in Spain 
149 BC: Roma attacks Carthage 
149 BC: Roma conquers Greece after winning the battle of Corinth (and destroying Corinth) 
146 BC: Macedonia becomes a province of Roma 
146 BC: Roma destroys Carthage 
144 BC: The first high-level aqueduct is built 
139 BC: Slave revolt in Sicily with the crucifixion of 4,500 slaves ("First Servile War")) 
135 BC: Second slave revolt in Sicily ("first servile war") 
133 BC: Tiberius Gracchus enacts a law to redistribute land to the poor farmers but is assassinated with 300 of his supporters 
133 BC: Attalus III of Pergamum wills his kingdom to Roma and the whole Mediterranean Sea is under Roman control ("mare nostrum") 
128 BC: Southern France (Aquitania) becomes a provinces of Rome 
126 BC: A law forbids Italians to emigrate to Roma 
123 BC: Tiberius's brother Gaius Gracchus enacts populist laws 
121 BC: Gaius Gracchus, cornered, commits suicide and thousands of his followers are killed by the Senate 
113 BC: Germanic tribes Cimbri and Teutones defeat the Romans and invade Gaul and Spain 
111 BC: Roma declares war on Numidia 
106 BC: the Romans led by newly elected consul Marius defeat Jugurtha, king of Numidia 
105 BC: the Teutones and the Cimbri defeat the Romans at Arausio/Orange 
104 BC: Slave revolt in Sicily ("second servile war") 
103 BC: Athenion leads a slave revolt in Sicily 
102 BC: consul Gaius Marius defeats the Teutonic army at Aquae Sextiae/ Aix-en-Provence, killing about 100,000 of them 
101 BC: consul Gaius Marius defeats the Cimbri at Vercelli, killing almost all of them 
101 BC: Roman troops massacre Athenion's rebels 
100 BC: Lucius Saturninuns proposes Gracchian reforms but is killed by Marius' troops 
98 BC: Roman troops massacre Spaniards 
95 BC: The city of Roma expels all non-Roman citizens (except slaves) 
90 BC: Central and Southern Italians start the "social wars" over the issue of citizenship 
88 BC: Central and Southern Italians are granted full citizenship 
88 BC: Sulla marches on Roma to seize power from Marius, the first time that a Roman army invades Roma 
87 BC: Octavius and Cinna are elected consuls, but Octavius, defender of the optimates and ally of Sulla, is killed by Marius when he opposes Cinna, defender of the populares, along with many Sulla supporters 
82 BC: By winning the battle at Porta Collina, Sulla reconquers Roma, executes thousands of political enemies including 40 senators and becomes dictator establishing a reign of terror and enacting aristocratic laws 
80 BC: Sulla retires to private life 
74 BC: Cicero enters the senate 
73 BC: Spartacus leads the revolt of the gladiators ("third servile war") 
71 BC: Mithridates VI of Pontus is conquered by Roman general Lucius Lucullus 
71 BC: Crassus puts down Spartacus' revolt and 6,000 slaves are crucified on the Via Appea 
70 BC: Crassus and Pompey are elected consuls 
69 BC: Rome invades Tigranes' Armenian kingdom and edstroys its capital, Tigranocerta 
68 BC: Julius Caesar is appointed to Spain 
67 BC: Pompey launches a campaign against pirates of Cilicia and is given dictatorial powers by the Senate 
64 BC: Syria becomes a Roman province under general Pompey (Gnaeus Pompeius) 
63 BC: Cicero thwarts Catilina's attempted coup 
63 BC: Pompeus captures Jerusalem and annexes Palestine to Roma 
60 BC: Crassus, Pompey and Caesar form a "triumvirate" 
59 BC: Caesar is elected consul 
57 BC: Caesar conquers all of Gaul killing tens of thousands of people 
55 BC: Caesar fights German tribes and crosses the Rhine 
53 BC: in the first war against Persia, Crassus is defeated and killed by the Parthians at Carrhae (Syria) 
52 BC: Clodius, the main defender of the plebeians/the Pompeian party, is assassinated by his rival Milo 
51 BC: Caesar crushes revolt of Vercingetorix in Gaul 
50 BC: Roma introduces the gold coin "aureus" 
49 BC: When the senate asks for his resignations, Ceasar crosses the Rubicon and invades Roma 
48 BC: Ceasar defeats Pompey at Pharsalus and becomes sole dictator of Rome, calling himself "imperator" 
47 BC: Ceasar invades Egypt and proclaims Cleopatra queen (ethnically a Macedonian Greek) 
46 BC: Ceasar defeats an army of Pompeians and Numidians at the battle of Thapsus 
45 BC: Julius Caesar employs the Egyptian astronomer Sosigenes to work out a new 12-month calendar (Julian calendar) 
44 BC: Julius Caesar is killed. 
43 BC: A triumvirate is appointed with Marcus Antonius, the partner in Caesar's fifth consulship, and Octavius, Caesar's adopted son 
42 BC: The religious cult of Julius Caesar is officially instituted by the Senate 
36 BC: Rome tries to invade Persia 
36 BC: Octavius defeats Sextus Pompey and the senate appoints him tribune for life 
32 BC: Marcus Antonius divorces his wife Octavia and marries Cleopatra 
31 BC: Octavius, whose navy is led by Marcus Agrippa, defeats Marcus Antonius at the battle of Actium ending the civil wars 
30 BC: Both Marcus Antonius and Cleopatra commit suicide and Egypt is annexed to Roma 
29 BC: Octavius returns to Roma 
27 BC: Octavius appoints himself "augustus" (the first emperor) and founds the Praetorian Guard 
20 BC: a treaty between Roma and Persia (Parthians) fixes the boundary between the two empires along the Euphrates river (Iraq) 
18 BC: Augustus enacts the "Julian law of chastity and repressing adultery" 
17 BC: the theater of Marcellus 
13 BC: Augustus expands the borders to the region of the Danube 
12 BC: Augustus becomes pontifex maximus 
6 BC: Jesus is born in Palestine 
1 AD: Roma has about one million people 
2 AD: The Forum of Augustus is inaugurated 
2 AD: Augustus, whose sons have died, chooses Tiberius as his adopted son 
5 AD: Roma acknowledges Cymbeline, King of the Catuvellauni, as king of Britain 
5 AD: Augustus' general Tiberius submits the German tribes between the Rhine and the Elbe 
6 AD: Pannonia and Dalmatia revolt 
7 AD: Augustus expands the borders to the Balkans 
9 AD: Gothic warlord Arminius destroys the Roman army at the Teutoburg Forest and Roma withdraws the border to the Rhine 
9 AD: Augustus' general Tiberius defeats the Pannonians and Dalmatians 
12 AD: The last Etruscan inscription is carved 
14 AD: Augustus dies and Tiberius becomes emperor, appointing Sejanus chief of the Praetorian Guard 
14 AD: five million people live in the Roman empire 
19 AD: Tiberius' adopted son Germanicus dies and his wife Agrippina moves to Roma with her children, including Caligula 
23 AD: Sejanus plots to murder Tiberius' son and heir Drusus 
25 AD: Agrippa builds the Pantheon 
26 AD: Tiberius leaves Roma, leaving Sejanus de facto running the empire 
31 AD: Tiberius survives a plot by Sejanus who is killed 
33 AD: Marcus Agrippa is placed in charge of municipal works in Rome and proceeds to build hundreds of cisterns, fountains, and public baths 
37 AD: Tiberius is murdered and the mad Caligula succeeds him, the only surviving son of Agrippina 
39 AD: Caligula's sisters Agrippina and Livilla plot to murder him but fail and are exiled 
41 AD: Caligula is assassinated and the Praetorian Guard appoints Claudius as emperor, Germanicus' brother and Agrippina's brother-in-law, so Agrippina can return to Roma 
43 AD: Claudius invades Britain 
46 AD: Thracia becomes a Roman province 
48 AD: Claudius' wife Messalina is executed for conspiring to overthrow her husband and Claudius marries his niece Agrippina the Younger, daughter of Agrippina, who is actually the lover of his advisor Pallas 
49 AD: Agrippina and Pallas establish a reign of terror behind the back of the nominal emperor, Claudius 
50 AD: the Romans found Londinium in Britain 
54 AD: Claudius is assassinated by Agrippina and is succeeded by Agrippina's son Nero 
58 AD: the Romans conquer Armenia 
59 AD: Nero orders the assassination of his mother Agrippina 
62 AD: The childless Nero divorces his loyal wife Octavia, who is beheaded, and marries the pregnant Poppaea while establishing a reign of terror 
64 AD: Nero sets fire to Roma and blames the Christians for it 
68 AD: Gaul and Spain rebel against Nero and Nero commits suicide rather than falling into their hands, while Spanish governor Galba is pronounced the new emperor 
69 AD: Galba is murdered by the Praetorian Guard that has been bribed by Otho but the general of the German legions, Vitellius, invades Italy and claims the empire 
70 AD: Vitellius and his followers are defeated by Vespasian, the general of the Egyptian legions, who becomes the new emperor 
70 AD: Titus destroys Jerusalem and Jews spread in Armenia, Iraq, Iran, Arabia, Egypt, Italy, Spain and Greece 
77 AD: the Romans conquer Wales 
79 AD: Vespasianus dies and is succeeded by his son Titus Flavius Vespasianus 
79 AD: the Vesuvius erupts and Pompeii is buried under ash 
79 AD: the Colosseum is completed 
80 AD: the Romans invade Caledonia (Scotland) 
81 AD: the Arch of Titus is erected 
81 AD: Titus dies and is succeeded by his brother Domitian 
84 AD: British rebels are defeated by the Romans at the battle of Mons Graupius 
96 AD: Domitian is assassinated and the senate replaces him with the old Nerva, thus terminating the principle of heredity (for a century) 
97 AD: Rome forbids human sacrifice throughout the Roman empire 
97 AD: Chinese general Pan Chao sends an embassy to the Roman Empire 
98 AD: Nerva dies and his designated heir Trajan becomes emperor 
100: the city of Roma has one million inhabitants 
106: Trajan defeats Dacia that becomes a Roman province 
106: Trajan captures the Nabataean capital Petra (Jordan) and turns Nabataea into the province of Arabia 
107: The Roman Empire sends an embassy to India 
110: the Basilica of Trajano is completed 
112: the Forum of Trajanus 
113: The Colonna Traiana is erected 
116: Trajan conquers Mesopotamia and the Parthian capital Ctesiphon 
117: Trajan dies on his way to the Persian Gulf and Hadrian, his wife's lover, becomes emperor 
122: Hadrian's Wall is built along the northern frontier to protect from the Barbarians 
132: Jews, led by Bar-Cochba, whom some identify as the Messiah, revolt against Roma 
134: The Villa Hadriana opens 
136: Hadrian definitely crushes the Jewish resistance, forbids Jews from ever entering Jerusalem, and changes the name of the city to Aelia Capitolina 
138: Hadrian is succeeded by Antoninus Pius, who repeals Hadrian's anti-Jewish laws 
139: Hadrian's mausoleum (Castel Sant'Angelo) is built 
161: Antoninus dies and his heir designate Marcus Aurelius, a philosopher, becomes Roman emperor with Lucius Verus as co-emperor, the first time that Roma is ruled by two emperors 
162: The British Celts revolt, and Parthia declares war on Roma 
164: The plague spreads throughout the Roman empire ("Antonine plague") 
166: Lucius defeats the Parthians and destroys its capital Ctesiphon 
167: the Roman empire is attacked for the first time by barbarians (the German Quadi and Marcomanni) 
169: the Roman empire is invaded by northern Germans 
175: Aurelius defeats the German barbarians 
177: Aurelius orders the persecution of sects like the Christians and the slave girl Blandina is tortured to death 
178: Aurelius and his son Commodus fight the Third Marcomannic War against the German barbarians 
180: Aurelius dies and his teenager son Commodus succeeds him, thus restoring the heredity rule 
182: Upon discovering a conspiracy against him, Commodus establishes a new reign of terror 
185: The freed slave Cleander is the de facto ruler of Commodus' empire 
187: The Libyan-born the general of the Pannonian legions, Septimius Severus, who was raised in a Phoenician family and studied philosophy in Athens, marries Julia Domna, a descendant of the high kings of the temple of Baal in Syria 
190: In another round of executions Commodus has Cleander himself killed 
192: the Praetorian Guard kills emperor Commodus 
193: Septimius Severus seizes power, executes scores of senators, confiscates huge lands from the Italian aristocracy, and turns Roma into a military dictatorship 
194: Rome annexes Palmyra to the province of Syria 
197: Septimius Severus wins the civil war at the Battle of Lugdunum and reforms the Praetorian Guard with non-Italians 
198: Septimius Severus enters the Parthian capital Ctesiphon and annexes the northern half of Mesopotamia 
202: Septimius Severus expands the southern frontier of African Roma 
203: Christians are massacred in Carthage 
208: Septimius Severus begins a campaign in Britain 
211: Septimius Severus dies in Britain and is succeeded by his sons Lucius Septimius Bassianus (Caracalla) and Geta 
211: Septimius Severus is the last emperor to die of natural causes until 284, most of the others being murdered by the Praetorian Guard or the soldiers and all of them reigning an average of three years 
212: Caracalla murders his brother Geta and sentences to death 20,000 of Geta's followers 
212: Caracalla grants Roman citizenship on all free people who live in the Roman Empire, but only to subject them to the same taxes 
214: Caracalla murders King Abgar IX of Edessa and declares Edessa a Roman colony 
215: Caracalla massacres the inhabitants of Alexandria 
217: The Baths of Caracalla are inaugurated 
217: Caracalla, accompanied by his mother Julia, begins a campaign against the Parthians but is murdered in Edessa by his soldiers, while the head of the Praetorian Guard appoints himself emperor 
219: Julia Maesa, Julia Domna's sister, leads a Syrian army that defeats the imperial army and installs her teenager grandson Varius Avitus (Elagabalus), a Syrian priest of Baal, as emperor, but Maesa is the de facto ruler while Elagabalus worships a conical black stone representing Baal as the supreme god 
222: The Praetorian Guard murders Elagabalus and installs as emperor Elagabalus' cousin Alexianus (Alexander Severus), also a grandson of Maesa's, and another teenager, with real power in the hands of his mother Julia Mamaea, who restores Jupiter as supreme Roman god, restores the power of the senate, and restores morality by banning homosexuals and prostitutes 
230: The Sassanids invade Mesopotamia 
233: Alexander defeats the Sassanids 
235: Alexander is assassinated by soldiers loyal to Julius Maximinus, general of the Pannonian legions, the beginning of a 50-year civil war 
238: Maximinus is assassinated by his own soldiers and dies without ever having visited Roma, while the senate declares Maximus the new emperor, but he is in turn promptly assassinated by the Praetorian Guard that appoints the ten-year old Gordian III 
244: Shapur I becomes king of the Sassanids and attacks Roma , and Gordian is assassinated by his soldiers while fighting that war 
249: The emperor Philip the Arab is killed in battle by a rebel king, Decius 
250: The emperor Decius orders the first empire-wide persecution of Christians that also kills the bishop of Roma 
251: Decius is killed in battle by the Goths 
253: Both the emperor Gallus and his successor Aemilianus are killed by their soldiers and are succeeded by the old Valerian who appoints his son Gallienus as co-emperor in the west 
253: Gallienus becomes emperor but 30 "tyrants" carved out their own kingdoms around the empire 
255: The Goths invade Macedonia, Dalmatia and Asia Minor
256: the Persians/Sassanids defeat the Romans and conquer Dura Europus in Mesopotamia 
257: Valerian reconquers Syria from the Sassanids 
258: The Sassanids conquer Armenia 
258: Valerian persecutes Christians and even the pope, Sixtus II, is executed 
258: Postumus declares the independence of Gaul 
260: Valerian is captured by the Sassanid king Shapur I after the Battle of Edessa, the first Roman emperor to become a prisoner of war 
260: The plague spreads thoughout the Roman empire, decimating its population 
261: Gallienus forbids aristocrats from serving in the army and relaxes the laws against Christianity 
261: The king of Palmyra, Odenathus, defeats the Sassanids on behalf of Roma, annexing Arabia, Anatolia and Armenia 
263: The Goths raid Ephesus and destroy the Temple of Arthemis, one of the seven wonders 
266: Odenathus is assassinated and his wife Zenobia becomes the new ruler of Syria 
267: Goths raid the Greek cities 
268: Gallienus is assassinated by his own officers 
269: The Goths raid the Greek cities for a second time but are defeated by Roman emperor Claudius II 
269: Zenobia conquers Egypt expelling the Roman goernor 
270: Claudius II dies of the plague and the army chooses Aurelian as the new emperor 
271: The emperor Aurelian defeats the invading Germans 
273: The emperor Aurelian destroys the rebellious city of Palmyra in Zenobia's kingdom 
274: The emperor Aurelian defeats Zenobia and brings her as a hostage to Roma, reuniting the eastern empire 
274: The emperor Aurelian defeats the rebellious Gauls 
275: Aurelian is killed by his officers and is succeeded by the old Tacitus who dies within months 
276: Probus restores peace by repelling the last barbarians on Roman soil 
282: Probus is assassinated by his soldiers 
284: Diocletian, the son of a Dalmatian slave, becomes emperor but rules from Nicomedia in the East 
285: Diocletian, proclaiming himself the human manifestation of Jupiter, reunites the empire and ends the 50-year civil war 
286: Diocletian appoints Maximian to rule the West, with capital in Milano 
293: Diocletian institutes the "tetrarchy" under which each emperor choose his successor ahead of time, and Diocletian chooses Galerius while Maximian chooses Constantius Chlorus 
295: The Sassanids invade the Eastern empire again 
299: The Sassanids surrender to Roman emperor Galerius, who annexes Armenia, Georgia and Upper Mesopotamia 
300: the population of the Roman Empire is 60 million (about 15 million Christians) 
303: Diocletian and Maximian order a general persecution of the Christians, including the destruction of all churches (1,500 Christians will be killed in eight years) 
303: the thermae of Diocletian are built 
305: Diocletian and Maximian abdicate in favor of Galerius and Constantius, but civil war erupts again 
306: Constantius dies and his son Flavius Valerius Constantinus (Constantine) is acclaimed by the troops as new vice-emperor of Galerius, while the Praetorian Guard appoints Maximian's son Maxentius emperor instead of Galerius' choice Severus 
308: Galerius appoints another emperor, Licinius 
311: Galerius relaxes the ban on Christianity 
311: Galerius dies leaving Maxentius and Constantine to fight for the throne of the West 
312: Constantine defeats Maxentius, becomes emperor of the West and disbands the Praetorian Guard 
313: Constantine's ally Licinius defeats Maxentius' ally Maximinus and becomes co-emperor in the East 
313: Constantine ends the persecution of the Christians (edict of Milano) 
313: the Basilica of Maxentius is completed 
314: Constantine defeats Licinius and obtains all Roman Europe except Thracia, while Licinius keeps Africa and Asia 
323: Constantine defeats Licinius again and becomes the sole emperor 
324: Constantine I founds a new city, Constantinople (Byzantium) 
326: Constantine has his son Crispus and his wife Fausta Flavia Maxima executed 
330: Constantine I moves the capital of the Roman empire to Constantinople (Byzantium) 
337: Constantine dies, and his sons split the empire: Constantine II (Spain, Britain, Gaul), Constans I (Italy, Africa, Illyricum, Macedon, Achaea) and Constantius II (the East) 
356: Roma has 28 libraries, 10 basilicas, 11 public baths, two amphitheaters, three theaters, two circuses, 19 aqueducts, 11 squares, 1,352 fountains, 46,602 insulae (city blocks) 
359: Constantinople becomes the capital of the Roman empire 
360: pagan (Mithraist) general Julian (the "apostate") defeats an invasion of Barbarians and is declared emperor by his German troops 
363: Julian dies attempting to invade the Sassanid kingdom of Persia, which recaptures Nisibis and Armenia, and general Valentinian becomes emperor 
363: an earthquake destroys Petra 
364: Valentinian delegates Valens as emperor of the East 
376: Valens allows Visigoths to settle within the empire 
378: The Visigoths defeat the Roman army at Hadrianopolis/Adrianople 
380: Theodosius I proclaims Christianity as the sole religion of the Roman Empire 
393: Theodosius forbids the Olympic Games because pagans and shuts down the temple of Zeus at Olympia 
395: Theodosius divides the Roman empire in the Western and Eastern Empires, with Milano and Constantinople as their capitals 
402: the western Roman empire moves the capital from Milano to Ravenna 
406: Barbarians invade France from the north 
410: the Visigots sack Roma 
410: Roma withdraws from Britannia 
418: the emperor grants Wallia's Visigoths to settle in Aquitaine (Atlantic coast of France) 
425: the eastern emperor Theodosius II installs Valentinian III as emperor of the west 
427: Gensenric's Vandals crosses the strait of Gibraltar and lands in Africa 
443: the emperor grants Burgundi to settle in Savoy 
450: Theodosius II dies and Marcian succeeds him, the first Roman emperor to be crowned by a religious leader (the patriarch of Constantinople) 
452: the Huns invade Italy 
455: the Vandals sack Roma 
476: Odoacer, a mercenary in the service of Roma, leader of the Germanic soldiers in the Roman army, deposes the western Roman emperor and thereby terminates the western Roman empire 
488: emperor Zeno sends Theodoric's Ostrogoths (still settled in Pannonia) to conquer Italy 
493: the Ostrogoths led by Theodoric conquer Italy 
[quote]500: Roma's population has declined to less than 100,000 people 
526: Antioch in Syria is destroyed by an earthquake 
527: Justinian becomes eastern Roman emperor and decides to reconquer Italy 
527: Byzantium enforces anti-Jewish laws and the Jews all but disappear from the eastern Roman Empire 
529: Roman emperor Justinian shuts down the Academia of Plato

532: Riots in Constantinople kill 30,000 people and almost dethrone Justinian
533: Justinian's code of law ("Corpus Juri Civilis") is published
534: Justinian's general Belisarius destroys the Arian kingdom of the Vandals and reconquers southern Spain and northern Africa
536: the Ostrogoths surrender and Belisarius reconquers Rome (beginning of the Barbar wars in Italy)
537: Justinian's general Belisarius deposes pope Silverius and replaces him with pope Vigilius
537: Justinian builds the church of Hagia Sophia in Constantinople
540: Justinian's general Belisarius takes Ravenna from the last Ostrogothic resistance and thus reconquers Italy to the empire
542: the plague decimates the Empire
546: Visigothic rebels led by Totila sack Roma
551: imperial troops reconquer Rome
552: Nestorian monks smuggle silkworm eggs from China to Byzanthium
552: End of Ostrogothic resistance in Italy
554: Rome is reduced to a camp of about 30,000 people, while Constantinople has about one million people
554: the new king of the Visigoths, Athanagild, accepts the emperor's sovereignity over Spain
554: the empire reorganizes Italy as an imperial province (end of the Barbar wars)
565: Justinian dies
568: Alboin's Lombards invade northern Italy
600: Constantinople has 500,000 inhabitants
602: the Persians (Sassanids) attack the eastern Roman empire in Asia Minor
610: Heraclius I (son of the Orthodox bishop of Africa) overthrows the tyrant Phocas, becomes emperor and establishes Greek as the official language
614: the Persians (Sassanids) raid Jerusalem and destroy its churches
619: the Persians capture Egypt
621: the Visigoths reconquer all of Spain from the Roman empire
626: the Sassanids besiege Constantinople
627: the Sassanid king Khusrau II is defeated by Roman emperor Heraclius at Niniveh
628: the Romans retake Syria from the Sassanids
636: Arabs invade Syria and Palestine
639: the Arabs invade the southern provinces of the Empire
673: the Arabs besiege Constantinople
714: the Arabs besiege Constantinople again
717: Leo III becomes emperor
718: Leo III defeats the Arabs that are besieging Constantinople
726: Emperor Leo III orders the destruction of all icons (iconoclasm)
730: Germanus is deposed and replaced by the iconoclast Athanasius
739: emperor Leo III issues the Ecloga that introduces Christian principles into law
800: Charlemagne, king of the Franks, is crowned emperor by Pope Leo III and founds the Holy Roman Empire
811: the eastern Roman emperor recognized Charlemagne as emperor of Roma
812: a peace treaty between Charlemagne and the Eastern Roman Empire surrenders Venezia to the Eastern empire but grants Venezia the right to trade with the Holy Roman Empire
813: an Armenian general becomes eastern Roman emperor Leo V
840: Basil's fleet retakes Bari from the Muslims
843: Empress Theodora allows the worship of icons to be restored
846: the city of Roma has 17,000 inhabitants
860: the Rus attack Constantinople
867: Basil I becomes the Byzantine emperor and founds the Macedonian dynasty
879: Basil I defeats the Arabs and reconquers Cappadocia
896: Symeon of Bulgaria defeats the Byzantine army for the first time
913: Alexander II dies and is succeeded by his seven-year old nephew Constantine VII but real power is wielded by empress mother Zoe
919: Admiral Romanos Lekapenos/ Romanus Lacapenus seizes power and marries his daughter Helen to the 14-year old Constantine VII, who devotes himself to literature and art
922: Symeon of Bulgaria defeats the Byzantine army for the fourth and last time
934: Magyars raid Constantinople
945: Romanos Lekapenos is deposed by his own children and Constantine VII assumes real power
968: Nicephorus II defeats the Arabs and reconquers Syria
969: Nicephorus II defeats the Bulgars
976: Basil II becomes the Byzantine emperor
1018: Basil II annexes Bulgaria and the Byzantine empire reaches its zenith
1025: Basil II dies
1054: The patriarch of Constantinople and the pope in Roma excommunicate each other (the Great Schism)
1057: end of the Macedonian dynasty
1064: the Seljuks invade Armenia
1071: the Byzantine army of Romanus IV Diogenes is defeated by the Seljuks at Manzikert in Armenia, who establish a sultanate in Anatolia

Quote

1071: Normans led by Robert Guiscard conquer southern Italy from the eastern Roman empire
1081: Alexius I Komnenos establishes the Komnenos dynasty
1099: the first Crusade captures Jerusalem
1187: Saladin defeats the crusaders
1195: Alexius III deposes his brother and becomes the new emperor
1197: Alexius III imposes taxes and melts the gold of the imperial tombs to pay the tribute to Frederick Barbarossa, causing anger against the Latin dynasty among the Greek population
1204: the Crusaders, led by the Doge of Venezia, sack Constantinople, expel the Greek emperor Alexius III and set up a Latin kingdom, led by Baldwin I of the Flanders, and Venezia acquires territories in the Mediterranean and Black Seas
1204: Theodore I Lascaris, son-in-law od Alexius III, flees from Constantinople to Nicaea (Bithynia), where he founds a the empire, whereas Alexius founds the empire of Trebizond further east
1208: Theodore I Lascaris is crowned emperor by the patriarch and Nicaea becomes a rival to Constantinople for legitimate capital of the empire
1211: Nicaea emperor Theodore I Lascaris conquers most of Anatolia after defeating an alliance of Seljuqs of Rum and Latin kingdom of Constantinople near Antioch
1261: Constantinople is liberated by the Nicaean emperor Michael VIII Paleologus and Greek becomes the official language of the ever smaller eastern Roman empire
1291: the Moslems expel the Crusaders from the Middle East
1345: Serbia defeats the eastern Roman empire and annexes Macedonia and Thrace
1347: the plague (Black Death) strikes Constantinople and it will kill half the population of the city
1348: Serbia defeats the eastern Roman empire and annexes Thessaly and Epirus
1453: the Ottoman Turks under Mehmet II capture Constantinople
1461: the Ottomans conquer the empire of Trebizond, the last Greek state

Quote

2. This has to do with mountains. I'm sorry but clock is 2:17 (at night) so I might make many spelling errors.
So the Quran says that the mountains are set as pegs and... well now that I think I might just put link on this kind of claim. It's short article and shouldn't be much of work to read:
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/215/

there is no geology/biology/physiology in Quran ., forget the 2nd part of your post but go back to verses of Romans in Surah-30 and tell me about that Prophecy

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything

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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim

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Reply #96 - February 08, 2014, 12:32 AM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 07, 2014, 11:44 PM
Hi, good question!
So: I don't really believe in God/gods and I don't believe the Quran but when I leave Islam behind I will always start wondering about it "What if...what if". So I just wanted to make a thread where I both tell my feelings, get some support, get "therapy" and also can look at this dawahganda with my sisters/brothers. Alone I feel like a leaf in wind flying everywhere and this religious stuff seems overwhelming but CEMB helps me to get over my fears.

What if.. what?

Do you mean, what if there really is a hell and what if you're going to hell instead of heaven?
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Reply #97 - February 08, 2014, 12:55 AM

I enjoy your posts, Josephus. Amazingly erudite...

...and slyly witty.
Quote from: josephus on February 07, 2014, 04:32 PM
It also adds its own distinctive element - the presence of a dog.
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Reply #98 - February 08, 2014, 01:22 AM

I don't get this:
You are afraid of Hell, but you know that the Quran is not God's word.
So how do you think hell is real if the Quran is not God's word?
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Reply #99 - February 08, 2014, 03:33 AM

So going back to that Siunaa Maailmaa post on so-called prophecy of Quran with reference to Romans
Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 08, 2014, 12:21 AM
So...

1. Another comes from Surah 30. In it is said:
"The Romans (Byzantine) have been defeated in lowest land but after their defeat they will overcome. Within three to nine years."
This is written in 620 and if I've understood correctly, Byzantine became victorious in 627 when most didn't believe it to happen. So how can this be explained besides "miracle"? Impressive thing is also the mention of lowest land because the battles happened mostly in the close areas of Dead Sea which is lowest land in the world...

let me give some links of Islamic intellectuals on that three silly prophetic verses of surah-30

Quote
Surah 30 contains a remarkable historical prophecy which was fulfilled.

The Fall of Rome - A Quranic Prophecy

Prophecy regarding the Roman Victory in the Quran

A Quranic Prophecy against High Odds: The Roman victory against the Persians

The Prophecies of the Quran

So there are literally 100s of websites from Islamic intellectuals on this prophecy where Muslim kids can read it with a click of button

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #100 - February 08, 2014, 03:55 AM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 08, 2014, 12:21 AM
So now I have couple more questions that bother me. I want to say that I've gotten better last few days thanks to all of you!
So...

1. Another comes from Surah 30. In it is said:
"The Romans (Byzantine) have been defeated in lowest land but after their defeat they will overcome. Within three to nine years."
This is written in 620 and if I've understood correctly, Byzantine became victorious in 627 when most didn't believe it to happen. So how can this be explained besides "miracle"? Impressive thing is also the mention of lowest land because the battles happened mostly in the close areas of Dead Sea which is lowest land in the world.

2. This has to do with mountains. I'm sorry but clock is 2:17 (at night) so I might make many spelling errors.
So the Quran says that the mountains are set as pegs and... well now that I think I might just put link on this kind of claim. It's short article and shouldn't be much of work to read:
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/215/

1. Go look at other translation of this verse. Some provide far more context. First off consider two empires had been at war with each other for centuries in the form of Rome/Byzantium and Parthia/Persia. Declaring one side will win is within random chance guessing, it is a 50/50 chance. I have to point out the battle of Mu'tah. Why was there no prophecy regarding this conflict? Also you need to establish when this verse was spoken, what was the date? Merely looking at a verse then picking the most convenient point in history is not convincing especially in hindsight that the Muslims lost the battle and retreated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mu%27tah

2. Mountains are not meant to stabilize the Earth. Mountains are a results of plate tectonics which is a focal point of earth quakes. Japan is a very mountainous land but suffers from earthquakes more than a flat plain. Mountains, or any earth for that matter, has "roots" as both are part of the earth's crust.

Mountains have been a source of ores for centuries. This isn't anything new or required divine revelation. The article you linked is nonsense that retrofits science, in error, into the quran in order to cover up errors which a man of his time would make.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thasos
http://www.tectonics.caltech.edu/outreach/highlights/earthquakes_and_mountains_International_Innovation.pdf
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Reply #101 - February 08, 2014, 04:11 AM

Quote from: bogart on February 08, 2014, 03:55 AM
1. Go look at other translation of this verse. Some provide far more context. First off consider two empires had been at war with each other for centuries in the form of Rome/Byzantium and Parthia/Persia. ...............

bogart if we carefully read Siunaa Maailmaa post it starts with wrong assumptions without any proof and ends up with wrong conclusions
Quote
"The Romans (Byzantine) have been defeated in lowest land but after their defeat they will overcome. ~~Within three to nine years."~~

there is NO three to nine years in any verse

Quote
~~This is written in 620~~ and if I've understood correctly,

Surah-30 was NOT Written/revealed to Prophet of Islam in the year 620

Quote
~~Byzantine became victorious in 627~~ when most didn't believe it to happen.

that is nonsense

Quote
So how can this be explained ~~besides "miracle"?~~

there is NO Miracle in it..
Quote
Impressive thing is also the mention of lowest land because the ~~battles happened mostly in the close areas of Dead Sea which is lowest land in the world~~.

that is rubbish., what do you mean by close areas of dead sea? how far from dead sea? 10 miles? 100 miles? 1000 miles? and which war? At that time these guys were fighting all over from Persia to present Turkey...

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #102 - February 08, 2014, 01:38 PM

Quote from: bogart on February 08, 2014, 03:55 AM
1. Go look at other translation of this verse. Some provide far more context. First off consider two empires had been at war with each other for centuries in the form of Rome/Byzantium and Parthia/Persia. Declaring one side will win is within random chance guessing, it is a 50/50 chance. I have to point out the battle of Mu'tah. Why was there no prophecy regarding this conflict? Also you need to establish when this verse was spoken, what was the date? Merely looking at a verse then picking the most convenient point in history is not convincing especially in hindsight that the Muslims lost the battle and retreated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mu%27tah

2. Mountains are not meant to stabilize the Earth. Mountains are a results of plate tectonics which is a focal point of earth quakes. Japan is a very mountainous land but suffers from earthquakes more than a flat plain. Mountains, or any earth for that matter, has "roots" as both are part of the earth's crust.

Mountains have been a source of ores for centuries. This isn't anything new or required divine revelation. The article you linked is nonsense that retrofits science, in error, into the quran in order to cover up errors which a man of his time would make.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thasos
http://www.tectonics.caltech.edu/outreach/highlights/earthquakes_and_mountains_International_Innovation.pdf

1. But it's quite remarkable that he guessed the winner and time.
2. So if there weren't mountains the earth's crust would be just as stabile? And pegs are mostly under the earth and so are the mountains. Was it common knowledge?

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
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Reply #103 - February 08, 2014, 02:02 PM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 08, 2014, 01:38 PM
So if there weren't mountains the earth's crust would be just as stabile? And pegs are mostly under the earth and so are the mountains. Was it common knowledge?

Mountain ranges and plate boundaries

Earthquakes

To see the 'mountains as pegs' thing for what it really is, think of rocks or paperweights on a carpet. It seems to match up with the idea of a flat earth more than anything else.
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Reply #104 - February 08, 2014, 02:13 PM

The point of mountains islamically is to keep the earth flat. Paperweight, tent peg, take your pick. You know the Roman Empire features in prophecy right? It's a key component in the end times. Of course, the Roman Empire doesn't exist any more and hasn't for a while.

Islam is a cult of death. Mo thought he was living in the end times and the theology is all about that, the end. This life is nothing. A test. An illusion. irrelevant. It's all about the afterlife. Death is coming and they can't wait. Islam began as a doomsday cult in dark age Arabia, and the writing are the writings of a warlord as he reimagines an iron age desert god. The only truth you find in islam is a glimpse into our own past. No more, no less. Whatever truth lies hidden is simply the truths of the cultural norms and mindset of that society and time. Historically and psychologically it's interesting, but that's all it is. No more, no less.

The real miracle is that anyone still believes it.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #105 - February 08, 2014, 02:15 PM

Siunaa

I guess that anytime anyone bets successfully on a horse or greyhound race they're displaying something remarkable then. Guessing the winner in a two-horse race is the same as correctly guessing heads or tails. It's only impressive if you've got the intellectual capacity of a shrimp. Let's have a quick look at Sura 30 - "The Greeks have been vanquished in the nearer part of the land; and after their vanquishing, they shall be the victors in a few years." ( Arberry ) Not very specific as prophecy goes - and given the 1100 years of periodic Greece/Rome vs Persia conflicts dating back to 500 BCE, something of a banal observation.

If there weren't mountains than that would meant that there were no plate tectonics - and that the convective heat engine of the earth's interior wasn't functioning; there's one planet that fits that description in the solar system, which is marginally closer to the sun than the earth - Venus, a world as close to hell that anyone can imagine. I read your link as far as its misdescription and misunderstanding of plate tectonics suggesting mountains are stabilizers of the earth made it necessary - it took 5 seconds to skim to the howling errors being reported as facts. You're relying on sources that have no understanding of science and have little to no understanding of ancient texts, the Quran included. Why on earth are you giving them any credibility?
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Reply #106 - February 08, 2014, 02:22 PM

Ketpicsay

I think that the tent peg metaphor relates to the understanding of the sky/vault of the heavens as a canopy that covers the earth. Think of Atlas holding up the skies, for example. Tent pegs hold up your tent, which is a sheltering canopy protecting you from the desert environment, analogise to the old idea of mountains holding up the heavens.
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Reply #107 - February 08, 2014, 02:25 PM

I guess Siunaa, ~~she~~ he have a lot of doubts about what Quranic scriptures have revealed..

Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
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Reply #108 - February 08, 2014, 02:44 PM

He, not she.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #109 - February 08, 2014, 02:51 PM

OH!!..He..

Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
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Reply #110 - February 08, 2014, 03:01 PM

Quote from: josephus on February 08, 2014, 02:22 PM
Ketpicsay

I think that the tent peg metaphor relates to the understanding of the sky/vault of the heavens as a canopy that covers the earth. Think of Atlas holding up the skies, for example. Tent pegs hold up your tent, which is a sheltering canopy protecting you from the desert environment, analogise to the old idea of mountains holding up the heavens.

I see. But wouldn't it go on to say 'mountains as pegs to hold up the heavens' or something along those lines if this were the case?
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Reply #111 - February 08, 2014, 03:04 PM

Siunaa Maailmaa

Do you think you are an immoral person?
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Reply #112 - February 08, 2014, 04:07 PM

Kepticsay

Yeah, but once you anchor your peg in the ground to hold your tent up, it's one narrative or metaphorical skip away from having the peg holding the earth in place too.
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Reply #113 - February 08, 2014, 04:16 PM

Quote from: RamiRustom on February 08, 2014, 03:04 PM
Siunaa Maailmaa

Do you think you are an immoral person?

Well, after speaking to religious people I think so :(
But overall, I don't think I'm immoral person. I have my flaws but I don't wish bad for anyone.

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
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Reply #114 - February 08, 2014, 04:22 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on February 08, 2014, 02:13 PM
You know the Roman Empire features in prophecy right? It's a key component in the end times. Of course, the Roman Empire doesn't exist any more and hasn't for a while.

Islam is a cult of death. Mo thought he was living in the end times and the theology is all about that, the end.

Further information about this?

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
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Reply #115 - February 08, 2014, 04:26 PM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 08, 2014, 04:16 PM
Well, after speaking to religious people I think so :(
But overall, I don't think I'm immoral person. I have my flaws but I don't wish bad for anyone.

So, if heaven and hell were real, do you think you'd go to heaven or hell?
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Reply #116 - February 08, 2014, 04:31 PM

Well, if I think about some God who actually cares about humans, what they do and how they behave, then probably heaven if I had to choose, though I'm not an angel.
Now, with the idea of dictator without mercy and who doesn't have same morals as most humans do, then I'm afraid of hell.

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
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Reply #117 - February 08, 2014, 04:45 PM

Siunaa,

earlier you said that you weren't sure whether or not god/heaven/hell exists.

if god/heaven/hell do exist, there's nothing to fear for you because you're not going to hell because you're good.

if god/heaven/hell don't exist, there's nothing to fear since there's no hell.

but, earlier you said that you have a fear. so i'm confused. what is that you fear?
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Reply #118 - February 08, 2014, 05:09 PM

I think Siunaa have a great fear of death and worries of life.

Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
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Reply #119 - February 08, 2014, 05:17 PM

Quote from: RamiRustom on February 08, 2014, 04:45 PM
Siunaa,

earlier you said that you weren't sure whether or not god/heaven/hell exists.

if god/heaven/hell do exist, there's nothing to fear for you because you're not going to hell because you're good.

if god/heaven/hell don't exist, there's nothing to fear since there's no hell.

but, earlier you said that you have a fear. so i'm confused. what is that you fear?

It's the uncertainty. So no, I don't really believe any religion is true but I cannot get over them because of "what if".
Like S.A.M said, I have big fear of death.

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
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Topic: Help Me!

josephus

Reply #90 - February 07, 2014, 04:32 PM

RamiRustom

Reply #91 - February 07, 2014, 06:46 PM

Siunaa Maailmaa

Reply #92 - February 07, 2014, 11:44 PM

yeezevee

Reply #93 - February 08, 2014, 12:13 AM

Siunaa Maailmaa

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yeezevee

Reply #95 - February 08, 2014, 12:30 AM

RamiRustom

Reply #96 - February 08, 2014, 12:32 AM

David

Reply #97 - February 08, 2014, 12:55 AM

INcePtion

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yeezevee

Reply #99 - February 08, 2014, 03:33 AM

bogart

Reply #100 - February 08, 2014, 03:55 AM

yeezevee

Reply #101 - February 08, 2014, 04:11 AM

Siunaa Maailmaa

Reply #102 - February 08, 2014, 01:38 PM

kepticsay

Reply #103 - February 08, 2014, 02:02 PM

Quod Sum Eris

Reply #104 - February 08, 2014, 02:13 PM

josephus

Reply #105 - February 08, 2014, 02:15 PM

josephus

Reply #106 - February 08, 2014, 02:22 PM

S.A.M

Reply #107 - February 08, 2014, 02:25 PM

Quod Sum Eris

Reply #108 - February 08, 2014, 02:44 PM

S.A.M

Reply #109 - February 08, 2014, 02:51 PM

kepticsay

Reply #110 - February 08, 2014, 03:01 PM

RamiRustom

Reply #111 - February 08, 2014, 03:04 PM

josephus

Reply #112 - February 08, 2014, 04:07 PM

Siunaa Maailmaa

Reply #113 - February 08, 2014, 04:16 PM

Siunaa Maailmaa

Reply #114 - February 08, 2014, 04:22 PM

RamiRustom

Reply #115 - February 08, 2014, 04:26 PM

Siunaa Maailmaa

Reply #116 - February 08, 2014, 04:31 PM

RamiRustom

Reply #117 - February 08, 2014, 04:45 PM

S.A.M

Reply #118 - February 08, 2014, 05:09 PM

Siunaa Maailmaa

Reply #119 - February 08, 2014, 05:17 PM

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