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Theme Changer

 Topic: Help Me!

 (Read 77522 times)
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  • Help Me!
     Reply #150 - February 11, 2014, 05:47 PM

    I'm from unreligious family like most of my generation..........

    edit: this was for Yeezevee.

    Siunaa Maailmaa .,  be thankful to your parents and family and please live your life as a  rational logical  irreligious guy..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Help Me!
     Reply #151 - February 11, 2014, 09:56 PM

    Is it miraculous if a book makes *unexplained* claims about things being harmful?


    Nope.

    You also had no memories, no feelings, no happiness, no experiences, nothing, BEFORE you were born.


    I know but it freaks me out that it is about to happen again. But I've spoken about this so many times that I wish not to once again.

    Then maybe your real problem is not about the Quran, and instead your problem is related to *how to deal with uncertainty*.

    I mean, are there other things (or decisions) in your life that you are uncertain of, and because of the uncertainty you get a bad feeling about it?

    What do you think?


    Quite possible.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #152 - February 11, 2014, 09:57 PM

    Quote
    Ibn Taymiyah (d. 728 H / 1328 CE), may Allah be merciful with him, in his famous treatise, ar-Risalah al-'Arshiyah, refutes the position of the neo-Platonic philosophers who identified Allah's Throne with the ninth celestial sphere (Majmu'ul-Fatawa, Vol. 6, pp. 546-ff). In the course of his response, Ibn Taymiyah discusses the question of the earth is it round or flat? He writes:

    [That] celestial bodies are round (istidaaratul-aflaak) - as it is the statement of astronomers and mathematicians (ahlul-hay'ah wal-hisab) - it is [likewise] the statement of the scholars of the Muslims; as Abul-Hasan ibn al-Manaadi, Abu Muhammad ibn Hazm, Abul-Faraj ibn al-Jawzi and others have quoted: that the Muslim scholars are in agreement [that all celestial bodies are round]. Indeed Allah - taala - has said: And He (i.e., Allah) it is Who created the night and the day, the sun and the moon. They float, each in a falak (The Noble Quran, 21:33).  Ibn Abbas says: A falaka like that of a spinning wheel.

    Ibn Taymiyah continues: The [word] falak [in the Arabic language] means that which is round. From which is the statement [of the Arabs]: <<The young girl's breasts have ta-fa-la-ka when they become round.>> (Vol. 6, pp. 566-567)

    In an earlier passage (Vol. 6, pp. 565-566), Ibn Taymiyah discusses why those on the other side of the earth are not below us, just like we are not below them. He writes:

    As for the other side of the earth it is surrounded by water. [Note: Admittedly, Ibn Taymiyah - as all Muslim scholars of his day- were not aware of the Americas and believed that the Old World was encompassed by an ocean.] There are no human beings or anything like that [on that side]. Even if we were to imagine that people were on that side of the earth, such individuals would still be on the face of the earth. Those on that side of the earth are not below those who are on this side; just like those on this side are not below those on that side. For as all spherical bodies surround a center point (markaz), no one side of a spherical body is under the other, nor is the north pole under the south [Note: Unlike Western maps, Muslim cartographers (map-makers) would draw the world with the south-side up.] or vice versa.

    In another passage (Vol. 5, p. 150) Ibn Taymiyah clearly states the earth is spherical.

    Significantly Abu Ya'la in his work Tabaqatal-Hanabilah (Biographical Entries of the Hanabali Scholars) quotes the unanimous consensus (ijma) of all Muslim scholars that the earth is round.

    This consensus was mentioned by the scholars of the second generation (the students of the Prophet's Companions) and was based upon Ibn Abbas' explanation to 21:33 (previously cited) and other evidences.

    The later belief of Muslim scholars, like as-Suyuti (died 911 AH / 1505 CE) that the earth is flat represents a deviation from this earlier opinion.


    What do we make from this?

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #153 - February 11, 2014, 10:12 PM


    Quote from: RamiRustom
    Then maybe your real problem is not about the Quran, and instead your problem is related to *how to deal with uncertainty*.

    I mean, are there other things (or decisions) in your life that you are uncertain of, and because of the uncertainty you get a bad feeling about it?

    What do you think?

    Quite possible.

    Ok. So then maybe it would help to learn about that -- about how to deal with uncertainty. I wrote an essay on that, and I've already posted it to this site. It's here: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=25766.msg733049#msg733049
  • Help Me!
     Reply #154 - February 11, 2014, 10:13 PM

    What do we make from this?

    Why don't you guess that it's horse shit?
  • Help Me!
     Reply #155 - February 12, 2014, 01:03 AM

    Something is wrong there...
  • Help Me!
     Reply #156 - February 12, 2014, 08:34 AM

    I REALLY want to see this original script where "2nd generation Muslim scholars" unanimously state there is a consensus that the earth is spherical. First of all, as a student of knowledge I was always warned to be extremely careful when I stated something to be consensus. In traditional usool al fiqh, consensus is the third highest degree of evidence, meaning after the quran and hadith, consensus is binding upon the Muslims. It's quite huge! I want to see the manuscript where such a thing is stated. Furthermore, since traditional tafseer from Ibn Abbas states that the earth is not spherical, I find the text to be bullshit from the get-go.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Help Me!
     Reply #157 - February 12, 2014, 09:35 AM

    Siunaa

    The sphericity of the earth was recognised DEEP in antiquity - at least as early as the 6th century BCE, some 1200 years prior to the writing/compilation of the Quran. The first attempt that we know of to measure the circumference of the earth was done by Eratosthenes in the 3rd century BCE, and subsequently repeated by others, all prior to the advent of Islam. The standard Catholic representation of the world, and this predates the medieval era, is the orb.

    There's something of a deception in the text that you quoted. That celestial bodies such as the sun and the moon are "round" is a trivial observation that anyone with eyes can determine for themselves - but there's an ambiguity as to whether round means that they are understood as spheres or as flat discs. The world as a flat disc surrounded by the ocean is, again, a very old concept; likewise celestial bodies.

    Ibn Taymiyah's geographical conceptions derive from Ptolemy, not the Quran. And a 14th century scholar asserting that the earth is round is coming some 2000 years late to the intellectual party in this respect. If a major Islamic scholar like al Suyuti is a flat earther, then it's tendentious to suggest that there's a scholarly consensus regarding the shape of the earth, as quite clearly there are disagreements - and the text that you cited seems to be concerned with the quite specific realm of Hanbali scholarship, which can hardly be considered to be a universally valid representation for all muslims.

    You could quite simply get a history of astronomy/cosmology out of the library and do the basic checkables for yourself. You're still giving credibility to random chunks of apologetic text garnered from the internet that fail to recognise that any intellectual activity existed prior to the 7th century, the indebtedness of muslims to that activity, or have any genuine interest in the actual history of ideas.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #158 - February 12, 2014, 01:10 PM

    Hi, I'm quite new to this site so just wondered if there was a section where I should introduce myself or if i can just briefly do it on this thread? I just wanted to give a little advice to you Siunaa because you seem very stressed.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #159 - February 12, 2014, 01:33 PM

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?board=2.0

    Just click new topic. Smiley

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Help Me!
     Reply #160 - February 12, 2014, 05:05 PM

    Cheers Quod, I'll write it tonight or tomorrow Smiley.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #161 - February 12, 2014, 07:48 PM

    Hi, I'm quite new to this site so just wondered if there was a section where I should introduce myself or if i can just briefly do it on this thread? I just wanted to give a little advice to you Siunaa because you seem very stressed.


    Feel free to introduce yourself in this thread if you want.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #162 - February 13, 2014, 03:06 PM

    I've put it on a new topic, well I think I have anyway :/ ha, quite new to this. How are you feeling now?
  • Help Me!
     Reply #163 - February 13, 2014, 05:10 PM

    I'm feeling quite good. Still problems getting over 'Islamic miracles' but the more I check them carefully and confidently, the more I see how they are anything but miracles.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #164 - February 13, 2014, 05:23 PM

    I'm feeling quite good. Still problems getting over 'Islamic miracles' but the more I check them carefully and confidently, the more I see how they are anything but miracles.


    the more I see how they are anything but miracles...

    Hmm.. o.k.,    "The more you  see and the more you read Quran, the more you feel  what is written in Quran are Miracles"

    No.... You are NOT feeling good Siunaa.,   you are not good at all Siunaa.,    I say you only feel good when you totally surrender yourself and all of your faculties to allah and follow Quran word by word. You better join some dawah group in your home country and start preaching and propagating miracles of Islam..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Help Me!
     Reply #165 - February 13, 2014, 08:18 PM

    I'm feeling quite good. Still problems getting over 'Islamic miracles' but the more I check them carefully and confidently, the more I see how they are anything but miracles.

    There are no miracles. It's all nonsense.

    Why do you need to check them any more than you have already checked them?

    Why aren't you convinced that it's nonsense?

    What would convince you that it is nonsense?

    If you don't even know what *would* convince you, then maybe your problem is that you don't know how to decide whether something is true of false.

    What do you think?
  • Help Me!
     Reply #166 - February 13, 2014, 09:05 PM

    ^^^^^^^^^^

    Rami is correct.

    In order to test the validity of something you must first come up with a standard to determine its validity and reconfigure your standardisation according to the results if you detect a flaw within your standardisation process. David Deutsch in his 'The Beginning of Infinity' and the Skeptic Magazine's Schermer's Baloney detection kit is a good sarter (check it out on youtube). Without coming up with a test you will bounce from one excuse to another. Most of us have an inbuilt detector and it's:

     BS meter

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Help Me!
     Reply #167 - February 13, 2014, 09:11 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWJfdRpHWuk

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Help Me!
     Reply #168 - February 13, 2014, 09:26 PM

    Qur'an is neither miracles nor nonsense. It's just amazing after 1400 years people still talk about how great Quran is. grin12

    Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
  • Help Me!
     Reply #169 - February 13, 2014, 09:30 PM

    the more I see how they are anything but miracles...

    Hmm.. o.k.,    "The more you  see and the more you read Quran, the more you feel  what is written in Quran are Miracles"

    No.... You are NOT feeling good Siunaa.,   you are not good at all Siunaa.,    I say you only feel good when you totally surrender yourself and all of your faculties to allah and follow Quran word by word. You better join some dawah group in your home country and start preaching and propagating miracles of Islam..


    Did you misunderstand, my friend? I said that more I read the more I think Quran is not miracle, not more I read the more miraculous it seems.

    There are no miracles. It's all nonsense.

    Why do you need to check them any more than you have already checked them?

    Why aren't you convinced that it's nonsense?

    What would convince you that it is nonsense?

    If you don't even know what *would* convince you, then maybe your problem is that you don't know how to decide whether something is true of false.

    What do you think?


    -I'm heavily leaning towards that comment.

    -Because I have not checked them enough. I read the Dawahganda, I check major tafsirs and I check Hadiths, so I can be fully sure.

    -I think it most likely is nonsense. Why I'm not fully convinced? Probably because of blinding fear.

    -Going along this road I'm going at the moment for some time still, seeing tafsirs and hadiths more and more.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #170 - February 13, 2014, 10:45 PM

    Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa
    -I think it most likely is nonsense. Why I'm not fully convinced? Probably because of blinding fear.

    Siunaa,

    The truth is not a matter of probability/likelihood. So I think I was right when I said:

    "If you don't even know what *would* convince you, then maybe one of your problems is that you don't know how to decide whether something is true of false."

    Do you want to learn how to judge ideas?
  • Help Me!
     Reply #171 - February 13, 2014, 10:55 PM

    Qur'an is neither miracles nor nonsense. It's just amazing after 1400 years people still talk about how great Quran is. grin12

    Do you mean to say that stupidity is amazing? I'm not amazed. The truth is hard to find.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #172 - February 13, 2014, 11:05 PM

    Siunaa,

    The truth is not a matter of probability/likelihood. So I think I was right when I said:

    "If you don't even know what *would* convince you, then maybe your problem is that you don't know how to decide whether something is true of false."

    Do you want to learn how to judge ideas?


    Learning is good, so bring it on. I'm most likely going to stick with this road I'm following, because I'm feeling improvement but if you have something to teach, then teach.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #173 - February 14, 2014, 12:41 AM

    Quote
    Learning is good

    Indeed it is.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Help Me!
     Reply #174 - February 14, 2014, 01:47 AM

    Learning is good, so bring it on. I'm most likely going to stick with this road I'm following, because I'm feeling improvement but if you have something to teach, then teach.

    Well, have you read the first link I gave you? It addresses how to judge ideas. Here it is again: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=25766.0

    If you want to learn from it, you need to do more than just read it. You need to explain it in your own words, thus exposing your understanding to criticism.

    [Edit: I should clarify. Don't take any of what I say for granted. I mean, don't take any of what I say on faith. You should come to your own conclusions. Make your own judgments.]
  • Help Me!
     Reply #175 - February 14, 2014, 02:03 AM

    Further information about this?


    Sahih International
    The Byzantines have been defeated

    Muhsin Khan
    The Romans have been defeated. 

    Pickthall
    The Romans have been defeated 

    Yusuf Ali
    The Roman Empire has been defeated- 

    Shakir
    The Romans are vanquished,

    Dr. Ghali
    The Romans have been overcome (by the Persians). 


    30:3



    to top
    30:3


    Sahih International
    In the nearest land. But they, after their defeat, will overcome.

    Muhsin Khan
    In the nearer land (Syria, Iraq, Jordan, and Palestine), and they, after their defeat, will be victorious. 

    Pickthall
    In the nearer land, and they, after their defeat will be victorious

    Yusuf Ali
    In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-

    Shakir
    In a near land, and they, after being vanquished, shall overcome,

    Dr. Ghali
    In the more adjacent (i.e., more easy to reach; the Levant) (part) of the earth. And even after their being overcome, they will overcome (the others)

    http://quran.com/30/2-3

    These Ayat were revealed about the victory of Sabur, the king of Persia, over Ash-Sham (Greater Syria), the adjoining partisan states of the Arabian Peninsula, and the outlying regions of the land of the Romans. Heraclius, the emperor of the Romans, was forced to flee to Constantinople where he was besieged for a lengthy period. Then Heraclius regained the upper hand. Imam Ahmad recorded that Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, commented on this Ayah:

    (Alif Lam Mim. The Romans have been defeated. In the nearest land,) He said, "They were defeated and then they were victorious.'' He said, "The idolators wanted the Persians to prevail over the Romans, because they were idol worshippers, and the Muslims wanted the Romans to prevail over the Persians, because they were People of the Book. This was mentioned to Abu Bakr, who mentioned it to the Messenger of Allah . The Messenger of Allah said:

    (They will certainly prevail.) Abu Bakr mentioned this to the idolators, and they said, "Set a time limit for that, and if we prevail, we will get such and such; and if you prevail, you will get such and such.'' So he set a limit of five years, and they (the Romans) did not prevail. Abu Bakr mentioned that to the Messenger of Allah and he said:

    (Why do you not make it less than) ﴿I (the narrator) think he meant less than ten﴾. Sa`id bin Jubayr said: "Bid` means less than ten.'' Then the Romans were victorious, and he said, "That is what Allah said:

    (Alif Lam Mim. The Romans have been defeated. In the nearest land, and they, after their defeat, will be victorious. In Bid`i years. The decision of the matter, before and after is only with Allah. And on that day, the believers will rejoice -- with the help of Allah. He helps whom He wills, and He is the All-Mighty, the Most Merciful.) This was also recorded by At-Tirmidhi and An-Nasa'i. At-Tirmidhi said: "Hasan Gharib.''

    Abu `Isa At-Tirmidhi recorded that Niyar bin Mukram Al-Aslami said: "When the following Ayat were revealed:

    (Alif Lam Mim. The Romans have been defeated. In the nearest land, and they, after their defeat, will be victorious. In Bid` years.) on the day they were revealed, the Persians were prevailing over the Romans. The Muslims wanted the Romans to prevail over them (the Persians), because they were both people who followed a Book. Concerning this Allah said:

    (And on that day, the believers will rejoice -- with the help of Allah. He helps whom He wills, and He is the All-Mighty, the Most Merciful.) The Quraysh, on the other hand, wanted the Persians to prevail, because neither of them were people who followed a Book and neither of them believed in the Resurrection. When Allah revealed these Ayat, Abu Bakr went out proclaiming throughout Makkah:

    (Alif Lam Mim. The Romans have been defeated. In the nearest land, and they, after their defeat, will be victorious. In Bid` years.) Some of the Quraysh said to Abu Bakr: `This is (a bet) between us and you. Your companion claims that the Romans will defeat the Persians within three to nine years, so why not have a bet on that between us and you' Abu Bakr said, `Yes.' This was before betting had been forbidden. So, Abu Bakr and the idolators made a bet, and they said to Abu Bakr: `What do you think, Bid` means something between three and nine years, so let us agree on the middle.' So they agreed on six years. Then six years passed without the Romans being victorious, so the idolators took what they had bet with Abu Bakr. When the seventh year came and the Romans were finally victorious over the Persians, the Muslims rebuked Abu Bakr for agreeing on six years. He said: `Because Allah said: "In Bid` years.''' At that time, many people became Muslim.'' This is how it was narrated by At-Tirmidhi, then he said, "This is a Hasan Hadith.''

    (Alif Lam Mim. The Romans have been defeated.) We have already discussed the separate letters which appear at the beginning of some Surahs in the beginning of our Tafsir of Surat Al-Baqarah. With regard to the Romans (Ar-Rum), they are the descendents of Al-`Iys bin Ishaq bin Ibrahim. They are the cousins of the Children of Isra'il, and are also known as Bani Al-Asfar. They used to followed the religion of the Greeks, who were descendents of Yafith bin Nuh, the cousins of the Turks. They used to worship the seven planets, and they prayed facing the direction of the North Pole. It is they who founded Damascus and built its temple in which there is a prayer niche facing north. The Romans followed this religion until approximately three hundred years after the time of the Messiah. The king who ruled Greater Syria along with the Fertile Crescent (semicircle of fertile land from Syrian Desert to Persian Gulf) was called Caesar. The first of them to enter the Christian religion was Constantine the son of Costas, whose mother was Maryam Al-Hilaniyyah Ash-Shadqaniyyah, from the land of Harran. She had become Christian before him, and she invited him to her religion. Before that he had been a philosopher, then he followed her. It was said that this was merely an outward show of belief. Then the Christians met with him. During his time they debated with `Abdullah bin Ariyus (Arius) and great differences arose which could not be reconciled. Then a gathering of three hundred and eighteen bishops reached an agreement, and presented their creed to Constantine. This is what they call the Great Trust, but in fact it is the Worst Betrayal. They presented to him their laws, i.e., books of rulings on what was lawful and prohibited, and other things that they needed. They changed the religion of the Messiah (peace be upon him), adding some things and taking some things away. They began praying towards the East, and changed the Sabbath (Saturday) rites to Sunday. They worshipped the cross, permitted eating of pigs, adopted innovated observances such as the festival of the cross, Mass, baptism, etc., Palm Sunday and other occasions. They appointed a pope, as their leader, and patriarchs, metropolitans, bishops, priests and deacons, and they invented monasticism. The king built churches and places of worship for them, and he founded the city which is named after him, Constantinople. It was said that during his time twelve thousand churches were built, three places of prayer in Bethlehem, and that his mother built the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. These are the ones who followed the religion of the kings. Then after them came the Jacobites, followers of Ya`qub Al-Askaf, then the Nestorians, the followers of Nestorius. There are many groups and sects among them, as the Messenger of Allah said:

    (They split into seventy two sects.) The point here is that they continued to follow Christianity. Every time one Caesar died, another succeeded him, until the last of them, Heraclius, came to power. He was a wise man, one of the most astute and intelligent of kings, who had deep insight and well-formed opinions. His was a great and glorious reign. He was opposed by Chosroes, the king of Persia and of regions such as Iraq, Khurasan, Ar-Riy and all the lands of the Persians. His name was Sabur Dhul-Aktaf, and his kingdom was greater than the kingdom of Caesar. He was the leader of the Persians and was as stubborn as the Persians who were Zoroastrian fire worshippers.

    http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1777&Itemid=86

    http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1776&Itemid=86

    http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1775&Itemid=86

    Qur'an tafsir Ibn Kathir

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Help Me!
     Reply #176 - February 14, 2014, 02:23 AM

    in case anyone missed it...

    [Edit: I should clarify. Don't take any of what I say for granted. I mean, don't take any of what I say on faith. You should come to your own conclusions. Make your own judgments.]
  • Help Me!
     Reply #177 - February 14, 2014, 10:46 AM

    Do you mean to say that stupidity is amazing? I'm not amazed. The truth is hard to find.

    Dr. Gary Miller writes:
    Calling the Qur'an amazing is not something done only by Muslims, who have an appreciation for the book and who are pleased with it; it has been labeled amazing by non-Muslims as well. In fact, even people who hate Islam very much have still called it amazing.

    http://www.missionislam.com/quran/amazing.htm

    Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
  • Help Me!
     Reply #178 - February 14, 2014, 11:25 AM

    No citations in an article written by a Muslim. This is just apologists 101. Most of the articles misunderstands science and it's method. It is filled with Texas sharpshooter fallacies. It has repeated the same miracle claims which has been proven to be apologetic word games. Also the one example of someone being impressed by the Quran is a sailor. The claim is vague and lacks a citation. All your articles shows is the bar for what are acceptable claims is very very low compared to professional fields.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #179 - February 14, 2014, 12:43 PM

    bogart,
    Have you finished reading?

    Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
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