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Theme Changer

 Topic: Help Me!

 (Read 77338 times)
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  • Help Me!
     Reply #390 - February 25, 2014, 09:40 PM

    These are not really questions of miracles, just things I'm interested.

    1. I think sometimes the Quran recitation in Classical Arabic is amazingly beautiful, IMHO better than any singer or Gregorian Christian chants. I find it quite amazing how they can create such beautiful sound without any music or instruments. Is there anything similar to Quran in terms of recitation? Anything without music that sounds as great as the Quran?
    No miracle, just interested.

    2. I found this quote, and like usually, it looks like dawahganda. That being said, I would like to get some further information about this:
    Quote
    There have been a number of people, like Musaylamah Ibn Habib, Tulayhah Ibn Khuwaylid, Nadhr Ibn al-Harith, Ibn al-Rawandi, Abu al-‘Ala al-Ma‘arri, Ibn al-Muqaffa‘, al-Mutanabbi, who did attempt to produce a book equal to the Qur’an but they failed miserably and ultimately had to admit that it was simply not possible to produce the like of the Divine Book. In fact, their efforts look ridiculous when compared with the literary majesty of the Qur’an. F.F. Arbuthnot remarks: “From the literary point of view, the Qur’an is regarded as a specimen of the purest Arabic, written in half poetry and half prose. It has been said that in some cases grammarians have adopted their rules to agree with certain phrases and expressions used in it, and that though several attempts have been made to produce a work equal to it as far as elegant writing is concerned none has as yet succeeded.”


    Did for example Al-Mutannabbi try this challenge? If yes, where can I check that?

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #391 - February 25, 2014, 10:13 PM

    3. I would like to know littlebit of psychology. How does fear and lack of confidence affect our ability to feel amazement? I think when I'm afraid and all that, I see basic passages found from the Quran as really beautiful. I had to keep my tears back when I read about the birth pains of Mary after hearing the hype from muslims and being kinda nervous. Then reading the same passage when more confident, it's not even close as emotional for me. So what's really up with all this stuff? Are there studies about this kind of psychology?

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #392 - February 26, 2014, 12:35 AM

    Nope. With all the respect, you have now said these same things huge amount of time and I get what you are trying to reach with it, but it's not the way for me. Like many times before, I admit that I give too much benefit of the doubt for Islam. Every time I have went with the road you try to point me in I have found myself turning anxious in my bed.
    The road I'm talking is the road where person reads the text and takes the most likely explanation.

    No. That's part of your problem. You think that the way to judge ideas is to pick the "most likely explanation". That's a mistake. This mistake you have is affecting ALL YOUR OTHER IDEAS. This is why you ask "What if?"

    If you learn the relevant epistemology (which is the answers to the questions I asked), then you won't ask "What if?"

    Also, you're not going to learn it just by reading it. You'd have to take an active role in learning it, rather than the passive role you've taken so far.

    It makes sense but it doesn't liberate me from the constant thoughts of "What if". Do you understand my friend?
    I've gotten so much help in this thread when you all have been helping me to get over the Islamic propaganda and claims. And you have helped by actually analyzing the verses and claims with me.
    So let's stay on that path.

  • Help Me!
     Reply #393 - February 26, 2014, 12:45 AM

     
    ...................................

    2. I found this quote, and like usually, it looks like dawahganda. That being said, I would like to get some further information about this:
    Quote
    ...........There have been a number of people, like Musaylamah Ibn Habib, Tulayhah Ibn Khuwaylid, Nadhr Ibn al-Harith, Ibn al-Rawandi, Abu al-‘Ala al-Ma‘arri, Ibn al-Muqaffa‘, al-Mutanabbi, who did attempt to produce a book equal to the Qur’an but they failed miserably and ultimately had to admit that it was simply not possible to produce the like of the Divine Book. In fact, their efforts look ridiculous when compared with the literary majesty of the Qur’anF.F. Arbuthnot remarks:
    Quote
    “From the literary point of view, the Qur’an is regarded as a specimen of the purest Arabic, written in half poetry and half prose. It has been said that in some cases grammarians have adopted their rules to agree with certain phrases and expressions used in it, and that though several attempts have been made to produce a work equal to it as far as elegant writing is concerned none has as yet succeeded.”


    Did for example Al-Mutannabbi try this challenge? If yes, where can I check that?

      where did you find that "Quote" Siunaa Maailmaa?

    http://www.renaissance.com.pk/NovQur2y6.html

    you better give links if you find/read  something historical on Islam

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Help Me!
     Reply #394 - February 26, 2014, 01:53 AM

    Siunaa Maailmaa

    I have an easy question for you. Do you agree that if someone submits to the will of Allah, staying away from sin and what not, that that means he's good? So what do you think about this situation?

    A Muslim women marries a Muslim man. They have 2 kids and then they divorce. The man became an ex-Muslim.

    The children started out with mixed beliefs, but one of them was that Allah exists and that there is a heaven and hell. But after many discussions with dad, they no longer believe it. It doesn't make sense to them.

    Then one day mom finds out that they don't believe in Allah. She emails dad saying that he should stop putting ideas against their religion in their heads. And she said that if they become non-Muslims, then the dad would have to raise them alone. Dad tells the children and they are upset.

    So I said to my daughter (of 7 years old), "so your mom, because she believes in Allah, she's willing to stop being your helper.. she's willing to stop being your parent. That's what believing in Allah does. It makes you evil!" So I asked my daughter, "Do you believe in Allah now?" She didn't want to answer. She wants to keep her mother. So I asked, "What if I was a Muslim and you weren't? Then you'd have no parents! You'd have no helpers!" She said, but I'd have grandma to take care of me. So I said, "What if all of us were Muslims and you weren't?" She didn't answer.

    Then the children ask their mom directly: "What do you mean that you don't want to be my mother if I don't believe in Allah?" Mom doubled-down. She got mad and repeated, "yes, if you are not a Muslim, then I can't be your mother."

    So Siunaa. If Allah exists, then why does he hate children? Why does believing in him make a parent want to reject his kids? How could one's religious beliefs make him want to reject his responsibility to his 7 year old child? How could one's religious beliefs make a parent reject his love for his children?

    And this person said that *I* am the one who has a messed up head (for not believing in Allah). She told me that just because I'm messed up in the head, that doesn't mean that I should make them (our children) messed up in the head. What.. the.. fuck..

    Do you ever wonder how people can blow themselves up and fly planes into buildings? Well, if Islam can make a parent reject his child, suicide bombings don't seem that far fetched.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #395 - February 26, 2014, 08:49 AM

    Also, you're not going to learn it just by reading it. You'd have to take an active role in learning it, rather than the passive role you've taken so far.



    I read the Quran (and study), read the Tafsirs (and study) and at times read the Hadith (and study).
    So I'm not just asking these questions and not doing anything myself, but I'm asking about things I'm wondering and that I haven't found answer to myself. I thought this forum is meant to be "brotherhood" for people with problems with Islam and I can ask about things about Quran/Hadith/Tafsir/anything along these lines without limit?

    Could you PM me in future about these kind of questions/answers instead of writing them in this thread? Because now my questions get lost in the midst of your comments and then people willing to help me answer them cannot spot them. I would respect that very much.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #396 - February 26, 2014, 01:59 PM

    Siunaa

    You missed my point. I said that you're not going to learn HOW TO JUDGE IDEAS by just reading an essay about how to do it. You'd have to take an active role, not just the passive role you've taken so far. Some how you interpreted what I said to refer to learning Islam.

    About your point about "Quran recitation in Classical Arabic is amazingly beautiful". So what? Much of the Quran's verses comes from earlier Arabic poetry. Read this to compare the actual texts comparing the Quran to earlier Arabic poetry: http://www.islam-watch.org/authors/168-fine-living/1503-reflections-on-muhammads-relations-with-poets-and-poetry.html

    By the way, this is the same issue with the scientific facts that are in the Quran. They were figured out BEFORE the Quran, by other civilizations, and then included in the Quran.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #397 - February 26, 2014, 02:48 PM

    Quote
    "Quran recitation in Classical Arabic is amazingly beautiful".


    What about this?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUCkNdvS85I

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_tqgxdELiY

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sycP42Hwm-c

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ2qFmLTUkA

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYoq6sovr8Y

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj0AwYsxvdo

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Help Me!
     Reply #398 - February 26, 2014, 03:08 PM

    Dear Siunaa-

    I am sure that this has been said, perhaps in basically the same words here, before, but to address your questions to the extent that I can:

    For your first question, let me get it out of the way that I, too, still find the Quran really beautiful at times. I still love and cannot get out of my head surat ash sharh, for example, and still think of it, almost automatically, in times of helpless hardship. There are particularly skillful recitations I have heard that are beautiful and lodged in my head like music, I may hum the tunes sometimes of ones I used to replay over and over, I may feel that weird, warm comfort wash over me at the sound of them sometimes echoing from far away, like it still does when I, on occasion, find myself back in our mosque, sitting comfortably on the thick carpet and looking around at these people that I once loved.

    Half of the reverence I feel for the Quran is that I know it not just to be another book: I know that here in my hands is something that has commanded the attention and respect of so many people, of old populations, of intelligent and great men and the countless masses alike, so I subconsciously and automatically assign to the words a respect that it wouldn't have earned if it were considered just the literary work of some guy. Part of this is made easier for me, as Arabic is not my native language, and, since then, have found other, older Arabic works profoundly beautiful on their own right, theirs greater than the beauty of the Quran, and I know that, had those come first for me, I would have been sorely disappointed in what the Quran had to offer. I remember the day this struck me was in the middle of reading a poem by ash Shanfara.

    I apologize for not providing you with a link for your second question. These kind of Quran challenges are one that I see every so often. They are really just the nonsensical work of apologists, however, particularly Tzortzis, whose favorite trick is “the inimitable Quran.” In order to debunk this claim, one really only needs to apply some critical thinking: every claim, such as failed challenges to replicate the Quran's style, have a fundamental flaw at their very core, and wind up proving nothing.

    For one thing, the challenge is a shell game: it is rigged. It is obviously technically possible to write something containing all of the literary devices employed in the Quran using old Arabic. But even when this is accomplished, it does not sway anybody, because the other side of the coin is that they now demand this new work to contend with the love that has built up for the Quran, that perception, that subjective perception, of it as beautiful. You'll see grown men weeping in prayer sometimes, particularly during Eid. Is it because the words are in such beautiful harmony that they are filled with wonder and awe at the language? No, of course not: it is because, to them, the Quran, the religion, the very action of standing in that row during prayer and listening to the imam, already represents something so incredibly beautiful to him that he will defend it and love it above anything else. And no new work can contend with that. It will always fail one of the two tests, if not both. And, even if he succeeded, then what? They'd probably demand some “scientific miracles.” It is not the merits of the Quran that keeps it on this particular throne. It's only the intellectual shortcomings of men.

    Tzortzis tries to take the emotional factor out of it and give examples about monkeys typing forever on a typewriter and taking years and years to finally write “To be or not to be,” or trying to show that the Quran is unlike any book written before on its style merits alone. Again, it's all smoke and mirrors. The implications do not and will never connect with “therefore it was written by God.” Besides, he has clearly never read Finnegan's Wake. If you're ever in for a real trip, that is a book that is famous for being like nothing that came before it, and it never made claims to divinity. I read the entire thing, and still am not 100% sure what the hell just happened or who the characters even were.

    Finally, about the psychology thing: yes, absolutely. I will look later to see if there's anything you could read to specifically address the sort of examples you gave, but this is basic psychology. Our feelings of helplessness or fear absolutely affect how things speak to us, and greater feelings of confidence do the same. It is a very basic mechanism in psychology, and it is partly why, in great tragedies, you have people more susceptible to things like religion, when there are gaps in their armor, when they are the most vulnerable.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #399 - February 26, 2014, 04:44 PM

    Siunaa

    You missed my point. I said that you're not going to learn HOW TO JUDGE IDEAS by just reading an essay about how to do it. You'd have to take an active role, not just the passive role you've taken so far. Some how you interpreted what I said to refer to learning Islam.

    About your point about "Quran recitation in Classical Arabic is amazingly beautiful". So what? Much of the Quran's verses comes from earlier Arabic poetry. Read this to compare the actual texts comparing the Quran to earlier Arabic poetry: http://www.islam-watch.org/authors/168-fine-living/1503-reflections-on-muhammads-relations-with-poets-and-poetry.html

    By the way, this is the same issue with the scientific facts that are in the Quran. They were figured out BEFORE the Quran, by other civilizations, and then included in the Quran.


    It seems at times that you don't really read my posts. For example at now I very clearly said that the beauty of the recitation is NOT proof of divine origin. I just wanted to know if there is anything similar to it in sound because I would like to listen to it without having to know that it's message is absolutely terrible. I said very clearly that I didn't mean it in the sense of miracle.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #400 - February 26, 2014, 05:41 PM

    Dear Siunaa-

    I am sure that this has been said, perhaps in basically the same words here, before, but to address your questions to the extent that I can:

    For your first question, let me get it out of the way that I, too, still find the Quran really beautiful at times. I still love and cannot get out of my head surat ash sharh, for example, and still think of it, almost automatically, in times of helpless hardship. There are particularly skillful recitations I have heard that are beautiful and lodged in my head like music, I may hum the tunes sometimes of ones I used to replay over and over, I may feel that weird, warm comfort wash over me at the sound of them sometimes echoing from far away, like it still does when I, on occasion, find myself back in our mosque, sitting comfortably on the thick carpet and looking around at these people that I once loved.

    Half of the reverence I feel for the Quran is that I know it not just to be another book: I know that here in my hands is something that has commanded the attention and respect of so many people, of old populations, of intelligent and great men and the countless masses alike, so I subconsciously and automatically assign to the words a respect that it wouldn't have earned if it were considered just the literary work of some guy. Part of this is made easier for me, as Arabic is not my native language, and, since then, have found other, older Arabic works profoundly beautiful on their own right, theirs greater than the beauty of the Quran, and I know that, had those come first for me, I would have been sorely disappointed in what the Quran had to offer. I remember the day this struck me was in the middle of reading a poem by ash Shanfara.

    I apologize for not providing you with a link for your second question. These kind of Quran challenges are one that I see every so often. They are really just the nonsensical work of apologists, however, particularly Tzortzis, whose favorite trick is “the inimitable Quran.” In order to debunk this claim, one really only needs to apply some critical thinking: every claim, such as failed challenges to replicate the Quran's style, have a fundamental flaw at their very core, and wind up proving nothing.

    For one thing, the challenge is a shell game: it is rigged. It is obviously technically possible to write something containing all of the literary devices employed in the Quran using old Arabic. But even when this is accomplished, it does not sway anybody, because the other side of the coin is that they now demand this new work to contend with the love that has built up for the Quran, that perception, that subjective perception, of it as beautiful. You'll see grown men weeping in prayer sometimes, particularly during Eid. Is it because the words are in such beautiful harmony that they are filled with wonder and awe at the language? No, of course not: it is because, to them, the Quran, the religion, the very action of standing in that row during prayer and listening to the imam, already represents something so incredibly beautiful to him that he will defend it and love it above anything else. And no new work can contend with that. It will always fail one of the two tests, if not both. And, even if he succeeded, then what? They'd probably demand some “scientific miracles.” It is not the merits of the Quran that keeps it on this particular throne. It's only the intellectual shortcomings of men.

    Tzortzis tries to take the emotional factor out of it and give examples about monkeys typing forever on a typewriter and taking years and years to finally write “To be or not to be,” or trying to show that the Quran is unlike any book written before on its style merits alone. Again, it's all smoke and mirrors. The implications do not and will never connect with “therefore it was written by God.” Besides, he has clearly never read Finnegan's Wake. If you're ever in for a real trip, that is a book that is famous for being like nothing that came before it, and it never made claims to divinity. I read the entire thing, and still am not 100% sure what the hell just happened or who the characters even were.

    Finally, about the psychology thing: yes, absolutely. I will look later to see if there's anything you could read to specifically address the sort of examples you gave, but this is basic psychology. Our feelings of helplessness or fear absolutely affect how things speak to us, and greater feelings of confidence do the same. It is a very basic mechanism in psychology, and it is partly why, in great tragedies, you have people more susceptible to things like religion, when there are gaps in their armor, when they are the most vulnerable.



    Thanks, very informative!

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #401 - February 26, 2014, 05:42 PM



    Not very beautiful to me. Good showing of how beauty is subjective.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #402 - February 26, 2014, 05:44 PM

    Sorry it wasn't quite what you were looking for. Got a little carried away!
  • Help Me!
     Reply #403 - February 26, 2014, 05:45 PM

    Not very beautiful to me. Good showing of how beauty is subjective.

    Fair enough. Different but still the same experience basically.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Help Me!
     Reply #404 - February 26, 2014, 05:51 PM

    Sorry it wasn't quite what you were looking for. Got a little carried away!


    What you mean? It was great answer.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #405 - February 26, 2014, 05:53 PM

    Fair enough. Different but still the same experience basically.


    True.
    But my original question is basically just to find something similar in recitation, not because otherwise Quran is miracle but because I like the sound of it but dislike the message.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #406 - February 26, 2014, 06:13 PM

    Ohhhhhhhhhh, the actual sound in a genre way. I get it. Have you tried looking for audio of classical Arabic poems, stories, etc?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Help Me!
     Reply #407 - February 26, 2014, 06:33 PM

    It seems at times that you don't really read my posts. For example at now I very clearly said that the beauty of the recitation is NOT proof of divine origin. I just wanted to know if there is anything similar to it in sound because I would like to listen to it without having to know that it's message is absolutely terrible. I said very clearly that I didn't mean it in the sense of miracle.

    Hi Siunaa,

    I suspect this may not be what you are looking for, but I've always appreciated the music and many musical chants from the beautiful land of India.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P26ZvKY--KY
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg8uoepX4OI

    "I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on earth" - Steve McQueen
  • Help Me!
     Reply #408 - February 26, 2014, 07:01 PM

    2. I found this quote, and like usually, it looks like dawahganda. That being said, I would like to get some further information about this:
    Did for example Al-Mutannabbi try this challenge? If yes, where can I check that?

    "From the literary point of view, the Qur’an is regarded as a specimen of the purest Arabic, written in half poetry and half prose. It has been said that in some cases grammarians have adopted their rules to agree with certain phrases and expressions used in it, and that though several attempts have been made to produce a work equal to it as far as elegant writing is concerned none has as yet succeeded.”


    This quote is not the author supporting the view, the author is stating a view held by others. The key words in the quote are "It has been said" ie others are saying this.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #409 - February 27, 2014, 10:22 AM

    Hi Siunaa,

    I suspect this may not be what you are looking for, but I've always appreciated the music and many musical chants from the beautiful land of India.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P26ZvKY--KY
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg8uoepX4OI



    Some of those are nice!

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #410 - February 27, 2014, 10:25 AM

    This quote is not the author supporting the view, the author is stating a view held by others. The key words in the quote are "It has been said" ie others are saying this.


    I kinda misunderstood it that he referenced to muslim claims in the first part, but the part of "nothing like it has been able to been written" was his own opinion. Now that I read it again I see that both were just talking about the muslim claim. Thanks.

    So this leads me to the point of has those guys really tried their hands at this challenge? I couldn't find much texts from them but I would like to read if such exists.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #411 - February 27, 2014, 01:27 PM

    Hello sisters and brothers, I would like to know all the major Tafsirs of the Quran and links to them.
    I will start checking these explanations from Tafsirs to these alleged scientific knowledge verses just to know more of the mindset of these scholars of the Quran; how they saw these passages before actual science found them.

    I know these:
    Tafsir Ibn Abbas (died 687CE) http://www.altafsir.com/
    Tafsir Imam Ja'Far al-Sadiq (died 148AH) no link found
    Tafsir Al-Tabari (died 923CE) no link found to translation where individual verse can be searched
    Tafsir Furat Kufi (died 10th century CE) no link found to translation where individual verse can be searched
    Tafsir al-Thalabi (died 1035 CE) no link found
    Al-Kashshaaf (died 1144CE) no link found
    Tafsir ibn Kathir (died 1373CE) http://www.qtafsir.com
    Tafsir al-Jalalayn (1505CE)  http://www.altafsir.com/


    Are there other Tafsirs worth noting? I would also respect links to those Tafsirs if such exists.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #412 - February 27, 2014, 03:00 PM

    Siunaa

    Ibn Abbas never wrote a Tafsir of the Quran - the Tafsir that is sometimes attributed to him is a compilation of traditions/interpretations that was put together in the early 15th century.

    You will not find anything in any classical or medieval pesharim ( yes, "tafsir" comes from a Hebrew word, and is originally a Jewish exegetical/hermeneutic practise that was subsequently adopted by Muslims - not that this in any way invalidates or renders inauthentic the art and activity of Tafsir, it's just something that's worth knowing ) that corresponds to a modern scientific understanding of the nature of matter, energy, evolution, cosmology, etc etc etc. There is no modern scientific knowledge encoded or occulted in the Quran - it is completely a product of its milieu and reproduces the knowledge of that milieu - and we know this to be the case, when assessing the scientific miracles discourse, as the Quran FAILS to meet the "advance challenge" ( see Ibn Khaldun ) that would validate its prophetic authenticity.

    You're chasing shadows.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #413 - February 27, 2014, 06:07 PM

    I kinda misunderstood it that he referenced to muslim claims in the first part, but the part of "nothing like it has been able to been written" was his own opinion. Now that I read it again I see that both were just talking about the muslim claim. Thanks.

    So this leads me to the point of has those guys really tried their hands at this challenge? I couldn't find much texts from them but I would like to read if such exists.


    The problem with the challenge is there are no parameters set. Who is/are the judge(s). Does it have to be in Classical Arabic? How long can a challenge verse be? If Muslims are the judges I would point bias as one can not accept a verse which is better than the Quran as part of the religion. The Quran itself is literature regardless of the religious value we assign to it. Literature is art which is subjective. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" It is a nonsensical challenge. This challenge is what a human would come up with not a god.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #414 - February 27, 2014, 06:30 PM

    Wikipedia says:
    Quote
    Recent evidence show that Tanwir al-Miqbas is a concise version made by al-Dinawari of Ibn al-Kalbi's Tafsir.

    It doesn't have source for this though. Well, it's [Tafsir ibn Abbas] based on early commentaries, right? Thus giving insight to understanding of the Quran in the early years.

    I got kinda interested with Tafsirs and their understanding of the Quran when I saw this:
    Quote
    When we look at a more famous tafsir by Ibn Kathir we see Ibn Abbas & Ibn Masuud (raa) saying:

    Ibn Kathirs tafsir, Chapter called:

     "Among the Signs of the Might and Power of Allah are the Night and Day, and the Sun and Moon"

    "...This was narrated from `Abdullah bin `Amr, may Allah be pleased with him. Ibn Mas`ud and Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with them, recited this Ayah as: (Huh?Huh?Huh??? Huh?Huh?? Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh??? Huh???) (And the sun runs with no fixed course for a term,) meaning that it has no destination and it does not settle in one place, rather it keeps moving night and day, never slowing down or stopping, as in the Ayah:

    (And He has made the sun and the moon, both constantly pursuing their courses, to be of service to you) (14:33). which means, they will never slow down or stop, until the Day of Resurrection..."


    This quote is from article http://www.answering-christianity.com/mahir/scientific_errors_rebuttal.htm

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #415 - February 27, 2014, 06:37 PM

    The problem with the challenge is there are no parameters set. Who is/are the judge(s). Does it have to be in Classical Arabic? How long can a challenge verse be? If Muslims are the judges I would point bias as one can not accept a verse which is better than the Quran as part of the religion. The Quran itself is literature regardless of the religious value we assign to it. Literature is art which is subjective. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" It is a nonsensical challenge. This challenge is what a human would come up with not a god.


    I know, I wasn't interested in the sense of miracle but just out of curiosity. I know that the beauty of the Quran used as a miracle is very invalid.
    Other "objective" challenge muslims like to talk about is the amount of rhetorical devices. Not really sure why they claim it to be miracle but I would like still see text of similar size that makes some kind of sense and has more rhetorical devices. Again, not miracle, just interested.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #416 - February 27, 2014, 07:30 PM

    Read some of Shakespeare's sonnets if his plays are a little heavy on the eyes. If you feel like challenging yourself apply some basic literary analysis to a few you like. Grab some paper in order to write down ideas, concepts, lessons, meaning, definition, literary devices and anything you can think of. Reread your choice sonnets over the course of a hour or two, write down your thoughts as you have them, this is free writing. Do not worry about anything like grammar, do not rethink your ideas, just write down whatever thoughts you have. Take a break for however long you would like to clear your mind.  You can try free writing again or try to organize your first free writing into an essay format. You could isolate your work to a single theme or several, it is up to you. The only limit to your analysis of a piece of literature is the time and effort you put into it.

     The rhetoric devices claim is the simple application of grade 11/12 literary analysis.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #417 - February 27, 2014, 10:36 PM

    Not really sure why they claim it to be miracle but I would like still see text of similar size that makes some kind of sense and has more rhetorical devices. Again, not miracle, just interested.


    Read the Iliad in English. A lot of the beauty and rhetorical devices survived the translation process, and even then I'd be willing to wager it can't compare to the Greek original. 
  • Help Me!
     Reply #418 - February 28, 2014, 02:10 AM

    Hello sisters and brothers, I would like to know all the major Tafsirs of the Quran and links to them.
    I will start checking these explanations from Tafsirs to these alleged scientific knowledge verses just to know more of the mindset of these scholars of the Quran; how they saw these passages before actual science found them.

    I know these:
    Tafsir Ibn Abbas (died 687CE) http://www.altafsir.com/
    Tafsir Imam Ja'Far al-Sadiq (died 148AH) no link found
    Tafsir Al-Tabari (died 923CE) no link found to translation where individual verse can be searched
    Tafsir Furat Kufi (died 10th century CE) no link found to translation where individual verse can be searched
    Tafsir al-Thalabi (died 1035 CE) no link found
    Al-Kashshaaf (died 1144CE) no link found
    Tafsir ibn Kathir (died 1373CE) http://www.qtafsir.com
    Tafsir al-Jalalayn (1505CE)  http://www.altafsir.com/


    Are there other Tafsirs worth noting? I would also respect links to those Tafsirs if such exists.


    Hello,

    Majority of Tafsirs still remain only in the Arabic language.

    1. Tanweer al-Miqbaas min Tafseer Ibn ‘Abbaas. However this is not authentic and cannot be attributed to the Sahabi Ibn Abbas (RA) (http://quran-errors.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/is-tafseer-ibn-abbaas-tanweer-al.html )

    2. Tafsir Ibn Kathir - A summarised version has been translated into English.

    3. Tafsir Al-Jalalayn.

    Only 3 are translated. The rest I can send you the Arabic links but guess little point hehe.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #419 - February 28, 2014, 02:24 AM

    It seems at times that you don't really read my posts. For example at now I very clearly said that the beauty of the recitation is NOT proof of divine origin. I just wanted to know if there is anything similar to it in sound because I would like to listen to it without having to know that it's message is absolutely terrible. I said very clearly that I didn't mean it in the sense of miracle.


    There is lots of Arabic poetry I love listening to. Such as this 52 seconds onwards:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvyvMBN5l9U

    Or this by Ibn Al-Qayyim:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xmuu5Hc67FI

    Although I do love the sound of this. The Qurans Literary and Linguistic Miracle isnt based on Aestetic reception.


    Ibn Ishaq recorded the reaction of one of the most fervent opponents of the Prophet(P), al-Walid bin Mugira:

    They said, "He is a kahin." He said, "By God, he is not that, for we have seen the kahins, and his (speech) is not unintelligible murmuring (zamzama) and rhymed prose (sajc) of a kahin." "Then he is possessed (majnun)," they said. "No, he is not that," he said. "We have seen and known the possessed state, and here is no choking, spasmodic movements, and whispering." "Then he is a poet," they said. "He is not that," he replied. "We have known poetry in all its forms and meters, and this is not poetry." "Then he is a sorcerer," they said. "No, he is not that," he said, "for we have seen sorcerers and their sorcery, and here is no spitting and no knots."

    [Ibn Ishaq, as-seyr wa al-Maghazi, Edited by Suhail Zakkar, p.151; Ibn Hisham, Sira, vol 1-2, pp.270-71]
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