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Theme Changer

 Topic: Help Me!

 (Read 77293 times)
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  • Help Me!
     Reply #450 - March 01, 2014, 03:03 PM

    Siunaa

    The idea that Jews didn't understand Hebrew or their own texts is absurd - it's a product of a polemical dispute, starting in the Quranic text itself, in which anti-rationalist 8th/9th century Muslim thinkers continued in denigrating the texts of their religious rivals and trying to uphold the supremacy of their own; the dispute is as much about power as it is about knowledge or truth. The development of Arabic linguistics was necessitated by two things - the religious disagreements with Christians and Jews, who, naturally, were not minded to take Muslim claims about their "inferiority" seriously, and the rather more obvious problem that there were real difficulties in understanding the text of the Quran ( this was not particularly a problem shared with Jewish and Christian understandings of their own religious texts -as any cursory reading will demonstrate that they are basically and easily comprehensible, whilst the Quran isn't ). Given that the dominant party in the exchanges were muslims, these debates were conducted in Arabic - which meant that their Christians and Jewish counterparts developed their own expertise in Arabic - whilst knowledge of Greek, Hebrew and Syriac atrophied amongst muslim scholars, a situation that still persists today.

    The Wikipedia entry is a joke. Ben Jonah was certainly an accomplished and serious linguist, developing and disputing the work of Sa'adia Gaon, and his teachers/colleagues in Spain, but his work was disregarded within about 50 years of his death in favour of the works of Rashi and the Kimchi's; it was re-discovered in the second half of the 19th century, by which time semitic linguistics, and linguistics in general, had developed beyond anything that was possible for a medieval commentator to envisage.  There's quite simply no factual or evidential basis for the statements made about him - and it's easy to get away with, as the likelihood of you, or anyone who isn't a serious medievalist or historian of linguistics actually bothering to read any of his work is pretty much nil. Jews had been interpreting their own texts for a thousand years prior to his birth - Mishnah, Talmud, other modes of commentary and historical writing etc, so it's a bit stupid to make grandiose assertions of that nature.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #451 - March 01, 2014, 05:18 PM

    Siunaa,

    If you want to hear some of the real crazy things that I've been hearing Muslims say about the matter recently, you can check out this nonsense:
    http://www.irf.net/faq/faq2_07.html

    I never heard of happymurtad's suggestion. I'm not sure if I would be disappointed or delighted if that is the truth.

    An old professor of mine used to like to go around saying that it was the initials of that particular scribe, or someone "testing their pen for ink."
  • Help Me!
     Reply #452 - March 01, 2014, 05:31 PM

    I would like to ask about the Alif-Laam-Meem stuff. How do you [all] understand them?

    A simple question can not be so hard to answer grin12

    Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
  • Help Me!
     Reply #453 - March 01, 2014, 05:33 PM

    Why do you think so many surahs start with Ha Meem? It's really "hmm.." And Qaf was just Muhammad clearing his throat.


    It would be so funny if eternal word of God included stuff like: "Hmm, let me clear my throat" Smiley
    I see your point but why would they include it in the actual canon?

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #454 - March 01, 2014, 05:40 PM

    It would be so funny if eternal word of God included stuff like: "Hmm, let me clear my throat" Smiley
    I see your point but why would they include it in the actual canon?


    During the compilation process, the precise details of which is kind of shady at best, but most certainly not as fool-proof and clean as most Muslims like to say, those letters existed on some of the copies. Maybe from the very start, people were fearful to leave out something God might have put in there purposefully. Either way, the best answer probably is that we've always been gullible suckers.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #455 - March 01, 2014, 05:45 PM

    Perhaps it's more pertinent to ask how  and why the meaning or the significance of the letters got lost.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #456 - March 01, 2014, 05:48 PM

    It would be so funny if eternal word of God included stuff like: "Hmm, let me clear my throat" Smiley
    I see your point but why would they include it in the actual canon?

    To influence and brain wash young Muslim guys and sometime people like YOU Siunaa Maailmaa

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Help Me!
     Reply #457 - March 01, 2014, 08:07 PM

     
    I saw this as interesting in the link:

    Any more information about this? Anyone?


    Hebrew is a semitic language, Arabic is too. This is no surprise that these two languages share common words which have a minor difference in speech and writing. Beside the quotes only show part of the history of Hebrew as a language. Hebrew existed in a number of dialects and was in use by religious leaders long after the general population stopped using it. It died out as a spoken and written language for the people, not necessarily everyone. This is similar to Latin and the Catholic Church. Latin is a dead language preserved by the religion which uses it. This is the same with Classical Arabic, the members of the religion institutions use it. The general populations in each case use a different language or modern dialect of a base language. The result of the work these quotes cover was Medieval Hebrew not the reconstruction of Biblical Hebrew. Medieval Hebrew, just as with other Arabic languages, borrowed words from foreign language groups for it's own use. This is not Classical Hebrew or Biblical Hebrew which was created centuries later based on many sources, not just Classical Arabic. Classical Arabic predates Islam so the author of the website is confusing the language itself with the Quran. "In addition, Arab grammarians had developed a systematic method for analyzing the style and the structure of classical Arabic, the language of the Koran. This enabled them not only to interpret the Koran but also to compose new works in the strict standards of the classical idiom" The quotes focus on the language more than the Koran itself as a source material. The quotes are not wrong.

    TD:DR

    I do not think it means what you think it means. - Inigo Montoya

  • Help Me!
     Reply #458 - March 01, 2014, 09:06 PM

    Siunaa,

    If you want to hear some of the real crazy things that I've been hearing Muslims say about the matter recently, you can check out this nonsense:
    http://www.irf.net/faq/faq2_07.html


    I didn't really even get what the author meant. So he basically said that they put alphabets there so they would know that it's written in the same Arabic they speak? If that's what he meant then that would be really bad answer IMO.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #459 - March 01, 2014, 09:45 PM

    I didn't really even get what the author meant.

    Huh!  you could NOT understand these simple statements from those fools? Then how can you understand Quran ??

    Quote
    http://www.irf.net/faq/faq2_07.html   MEANING OF ALIF LAAM MEEM

    2.   Meanings of these abbreviated letters

    The meaning and purpose of these letters is uncertain. There have been a variety of explanations offered by Muslim scholars through the ages. A few among them are:

    i.   These letters might be abbreviations for certain sentences and words for     ............

    ii.  These letters are not abbreviations but symbols ..............

    iii. yadi yadi yada

    iv. yadi yadi yada

    v.  yadi yadi yada

    Several volumes have been written on the significance of these abbreviations.


    See that..THERE ARE SEVRAL VOLUME ARE WRITTEN ON THOSE LETTERS.. that is how MUSLIM INTELLECTUAL IDIOTS spend their time .,  writing   nonsense about nonsense

    fools..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Help Me!
     Reply #460 - March 01, 2014, 10:56 PM

    But I meant the later part where they started talking about Quran challenge and alphabet. You know, there I lost what they tried to say.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #461 - March 01, 2014, 11:03 PM

    But I meant the later part where they started talking about Quran challenge and alphabet. You know, there I lost what they tried to say.

    what is there to understand??  NOTHING..   N O T H I N G..

    A fool is wasting his time to explain GIBBERISH by writing some other GIBBERISH.,  And many people fall for that nonsense Siunaa Maailmaa ...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Help Me!
     Reply #462 - March 01, 2014, 11:18 PM

    Personally, I think it's great that Siunaa is so curious. I probably wouldn't have noticed my own hypocrisy if I didn't start seeing it in renowned apologists. The day I recoiled, unimpressed, from the skillful tongue of those trying to justify the unjustifiable in my religion was the day I began to leave it.

    This really is probably the most poetic, time-consuming explanation for the letters that I ever came across, and it's still nonsense. Basically, Siunaa, he is comparing the letters to the constituents of the human body, among other things, and trying to show you that, even if you scraped together all the parts that it takes to make a human, you still wouldn't be able to create life out of it. He claims the same is true of the letters in the Quran, that the composition of the Quran carries some strange mystery that we cannot and have not conquered. He more or less is trying to say that the Quran threw a sample of the "material" that you would use to take on the Quran imitation challenge in the form of the letters, and then immediately reminded you--correctly so, he says--that even with the materials, this is an inimitable creation.

    But, again, pretty though it may sound, it has no ground to stand on. And this is one of the best things they've got.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #463 - March 01, 2014, 11:22 PM

    Abu Bakr said. " For every book there is a secret and all of its secrects are in the Quran in the opening letters of the chapters"

    Alif is Allah (or essence of dzat). Lam is the body that is Adam. Mim is Nur  Muhammad (Spirit) who do not look or shape. It is merely amalgamated from Nur Allah.

    Alif Lam Mim stands for ilm (Knowledge)

    Alif Lam Mim also stands for Alam (World)

    and many many more...




    Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
  • Help Me!
     Reply #464 - March 01, 2014, 11:27 PM

    Abu Bakr said. " For every book there is a secret and all of its secrects are in the Quran in the opening letters of the chapters"

     Alif is Allah (or essence of dzat). Lam is the body that is Adam. Mim is Nur  Muhammad (Spirit) who do not look or shape. It is merely amalgamated from Nur Allah. 

    Alif Lam Mim stands for ilm (Knowledge)

    Alif Lam Mim also stands for Alam (World)
    and many many more...
     

    yes many more S.A.M. , that makes sense .

    Nonsense., Abu BAKHRA can not be that intelligent., A  50 year old  fool who gives his child daughter to another nut case  who is older than himself can not that smart..

    That BKAHRA of Islam we read in hadith has shown no intelligence throughout his life..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Help Me!
     Reply #465 - March 01, 2014, 11:37 PM

    Yzve....

    "Who know himself, He would the introductory Adam, Who know Adam he knew Muhammad, Who know Muhammad he knew Allah.

    Alif Lam Mim similar to Alif Dal Mim (Adam) stands for Allah and Muhammad.. grin12

    Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
  • Help Me!
     Reply #466 - March 01, 2014, 11:41 PM

    Yzve....
    ....................

    Alif Lam Mim similar to Alif Dal Mim stands for Allah and Muhammad.. grin12

    well then  it could be

    Aloo Dal muttor
    Aloo dal Mutton
    Aisha dingdong Muhammad

     or  it coul be.,    Ah!  Dha! Mhu!

    foolish people writing silly books on silly words....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Help Me!
     Reply #467 - March 01, 2014, 11:47 PM

    Yzve...From whatever source or any other reliable source of information can bore only those fools who are still being fooled by the fool of the fools..especially people like you..  Grin

    Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
  • Help Me!
     Reply #468 - March 10, 2014, 06:32 PM

    Came up to this Hadith when reading about the supposed origin of iron mentioned in Quran, the one claim many of you know. Now I studied those passages and it doesn't really say it literally came from heaven but that it was sent forth by God. Still left slightly bothered by this, though my BS meter straight away felt something,
    here's the link:

    http://www.elnaggarzr.com/en/main.php?id=30

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #469 - March 10, 2014, 07:23 PM

    Came up to this Hadith when reading about the supposed origin of iron mentioned in Quran, the one claim many of you know. Now I studied those passages and it doesn't really say it literally came from heaven but that it was sent forth by God. Still left slightly bothered by this, though my BS meter straight away felt something,
    here's the link:

    http://www.elnaggarzr.com/en/main.php?id=30


    1. Already known at the time
    2. If it really is referring to heaven, and 'from heaven' = space, then this probably refutes the Qur'an prediction that mankind will never be able to penetrate the 'heavens' (can't recall surah:ayat).
  • Help Me!
     Reply #470 - March 10, 2014, 07:58 PM

    It's awesome how he claims it's a really good hadith despite being weak. Cheesy

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Help Me!
     Reply #471 - March 12, 2014, 07:08 PM

    Any textual (internal) contradictions in the Quran?
    Not contradictions with the science by contradictions within the text itself?

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #472 - March 12, 2014, 07:15 PM

    Quote
    Any textual (internal) contradictions in the Quran?

    there's a ton. here's one example.

    a main theme is submission. and one of the verses says to use reason (which means to use your own judgment). you cannot both submit to authority AND use your own judgment at the same time. it's impossible. they are opposites.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #473 - March 12, 2014, 07:37 PM

    That's a good one but I think it's slightly too vague, since it could be explained away with pseudo-philosophical "reasoning". Any others? More in the sense of narrative, like in the Bible you have story of Judas Iskariot dying in two different ways. Any similar to that?

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #474 - March 12, 2014, 08:20 PM

    How is pseudo-philosophical "reasoning" valid? If you do not see this reasoning as valid given the term used by you why would any explanation using the method be acceptable?

    Verse on about the People of the Book which requires an external source to explain. If an external source is required to correct the contradiction there is still a contradiction made in the Quran. An error regardless of post hoc explanations.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #475 - March 12, 2014, 09:21 PM

    It's not valid, but I'm just interested if there are similar narrative contradictions as in the Bible?

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #476 - March 13, 2014, 04:31 PM

    ?

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #477 - March 16, 2014, 10:23 PM

    I know that I asked this before but since asking that question I have understood more the argument of muslim scholars in this situation, so I would like to ask again:

    •Does Quran describe moon's light as reflection of light? There's two arguments against it, but there are some opposing arguments from muslim scholars. The arguments of skeptics are:

    1. Noor doesn't mean reflection of light but light, plain and simple.
    2. It cannot mean reflection of light, because Allāh is described as noor.

    The opposing arguments for the refutations are these:

    1. According to answering-christianity, the meaning of noor is 'be revealed, be lighted, receive light' according to Lisan al-Arab. Here's part about it:
    Quote
    نور  (noor):  بيّن (bayyan)  reveal, reflect.

    إستنار به (istanaara bihi): إستمدّ شعاعة  (istamadda shu'aaa'uh) was supplied by its light.

    انار المكان (anaara al-makaan):  وضع فيه النور (wada'aa feehi al-noor)  Put light into it, or reflected light off of it.

    نوّرتِ الشجرو انارت ايضاً (nawwarat al-shajarah wa anaarat aydan):  اخرجت نورها (akhrajat nooraha) The plant reflected the light off of itself, or it showed the light off of itself.  However, plants, as we know, are not a source of light.

    انار النبت (anaara al-nabtu):  ظهر و حسن (tha-hara wa hasan)  the plant was revealed well from light.

    نور (noor):  be revealed, to be lighted, to receive light.


    The Quran refers to sun as origin of light which further points that Muhammad surely knew the difference between sun and the moon. It calls sun the blazing lamp.

    2. Argument is that Allah is both light and reflection of his own light, stated by Zakir Naik:
    Quote
    (Dr. Naik) And he said that if it means a reflection of light and he quoted Sura Nur  24:35 that Allahu nooru alssamawati waal-ardi (Allah is the light of the heaven and the earth). Read the complete verse. And analyze what it says. It doesn’t say Allah is the light, ‘Nur’; it says Allah is the light of heaven and the earth. It is similar to light, a niche and within the niche there is the lamp. The lamp is what is there. So Allah (swt) has got light of his own and even reflects his light. Like you see halogen lamp – like which are here. The lamp inside is like a siraj but the reflector is like moon. It’s reflecting light. The lamp, the tube, is having the light of its own, but the reflector of the halogen lamp is reflecting light. So both two in one! So Allah (swt) Alhamdulillah, beside having light of its own, as the Quranic verses, in the niche there is a lamp. And that lamp, light of Allah (swt) is its own light. Allah reflects his own light. 


    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #478 - March 16, 2014, 11:01 PM

    A good laugh is always guaranteed when apologists claim the 'moon reflecting light' thing to be a miracle. I wonder what the Qur'an says about bears shitting in the woods.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #479 - March 16, 2014, 11:31 PM

    what about the claim that islam pointed to where Pharun was buried at the red sea, is that seen as some miracle, what was the other claim ?  sure it was helping find the rossetta stone or some ancient wall.. ?


    It doesnt really make much difference to me what science is in the quran as i guess it all came from previous ancient discoveries from older civilizations..   
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