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Theme Changer

 Topic: Help Me!

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  • Help Me!
     Reply #660 - March 30, 2014, 01:23 AM

    Far as I'm aware it was understood to be global, then the dawah people realised how silly it was and said it was local even though the quran talks about wiping out all the unbelievers and gathering two of every species. Basically, they lie.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Help Me!
     Reply #661 - March 30, 2014, 02:44 AM

    I'm so tired (like literally, freaking tired because it's the flu season in here and I'm in bad flu) so I don't even bother to check out at all myself this very moment.
    So, is the Quranic Noah's flood universal or local, like some claim?


    The whole thing is ill-defined. Parts of the story say Noah's son fled to the mountains but still died. The Ark came to rest on Judi which means high place. A high place is an area which is well above it's surroundings. However this is poorly defined so one can not assume how high Judi was above sea level. These days people claim it is a mountain called Judi so that doesn't really help the case of a local flood much. The story is no better than "there was a flood somewhere at sometime which was high enough, but stable, for a boat to float on for X days. No details so the claim is moot. Such a claim happens in multiple places during all times of years... flooding is pretty damn common when you live near water. The claim is vague so one could pick whatever they wanted to fit such a description. Vague ambiguous claims can be rejected for being ill-defined.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #662 - March 30, 2014, 06:16 PM

    If that local flood story possible in real life (even hypotethically)?  I know the Biblical story is  100% impossible with it's description but I haven't really studied the Islamic version much.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #663 - March 30, 2014, 06:21 PM

    Not to the extent it claims, of course not. The ark lands on a mountain, after all, and that is not local flooding. Also it wouldn't make sense for this big boat to be built containing all these animals, all for a local flood.

    Besides which, it wasn't a local flood in the Quran. It talks about a flood to wipe out all the non-believers. I suppose all the non-believers could have been living in a particular location along with all the animals, but that seems almost sillier than the story itself.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #664 - March 30, 2014, 07:55 PM

    I don't know where to find it in Arabic. But I guess that you can find it easier in Arabic since you speak the language.
    It's Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn Abbas and from there the explanation of 21:33.
    Josephus, it's not written 15th century.


    Tanwir al-Miqbas is from the 15th century and is simply attributed to Ibn Abbas. it says so even in its introduction;
    http://altafsir.com/Books/IbnAbbas.pdf

    "There is no doubt that this commentary is not the work of Ibn ‘Abbas." (page v)
  • Help Me!
     Reply #665 - March 30, 2014, 08:04 PM

    Quote
    71:25 Because of their sins they were drowned (in the flood), and were made to enter the Fire (of Punishment): and they found- in lieu of Allah- none to help them.
    71:26 And Noah, said: "O my Lord! Leave not of the Unbelievers, a single one on earth!
    71:27 "For, if Thou dost leave (any of) them, they will but mislead Thy devotees, and they will breed none but wicked ungrateful ones.

     

  • Help Me!
     Reply #666 - March 30, 2014, 08:07 PM

    Besides which, it wasn't a local flood in the Quran. It talks about a flood to wipe out all the non-believers. I suppose all the non-believers could have been living in a particular location along with all the animals, but that seems almost sillier than the story itself.

    Especially since if it was a local flood, you could just move to somewhere not local.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #667 - March 30, 2014, 08:09 PM

    Yeah, the Ark would have been a bit of overkill. Grin
  • Help Me!
     Reply #668 - March 30, 2014, 08:13 PM

    Would've made more sense to build a Morris Minor. Smiley

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Help Me!
     Reply #669 - March 30, 2014, 08:14 PM

    Too many posts to go through here so not sure if these have been mentioned or discussed. Here are some of my debunkings of a few claims and more to come on the 'dawahganda' blog;

    1. Embryology  - http://embryologyinthequran.blogspot.com/

    2. Ostrich-Egg-Shaped Earth - http://dawahganda.blogspot.com/2013/01/ostrich-egg-shaped-earth.html

    3. Pain Receptors or Sensory Characteristic of the Skin - http://dawahganda.blogspot.com/2013/01/pain-receptors-or-sensory.html

    4. Lowest Land Prediction - http://dawahganda.blogspot.com/2013/01/lowest-land-prediction.html

    5. Atoms & Sub-atomic particles in the Qur’an - http://dawahganda.blogspot.com/2013/01/atoms-sub-atomic-particles-in-quran.html

    6. Fingerprints in the Qur'an -  http://dawahganda.blogspot.com/2013/01/fingerprints-in-quran.html

    The general theme for these claims seems to be mistranslations, anachronism, ignorance of ancient knowledge and fallacious logic. Other useful links on the topic;

    Muslims against the Science in the Quran claims - http://dawahganda.blogspot.com/2013/01/muslims-against-science-in-quran-claims.html

    iERA, Hamza Tzortzis concerned about counter-dawahganda - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENpeBW6uci8
  • Help Me!
     Reply #670 - March 30, 2014, 08:21 PM

    Quote
    69:11 We, when the water (of Noah's Flood) overflowed beyond its limits, carried you (mankind), in the floating (Ark).


    Quote
    And indeed Noah invoked Us, and We are the Best of those who answer (prayers).
    And We rescued him and his family from the great distress (i.e. drowning),
    And, his progeny, them We made the survivors
    And left for him (a goodly remembrance) among generations to come in later times
    Peace and salutation to Noah among the nations!"
    Thus indeed do we reward those who do right.
    For he was one of our believing Servants.
    Then the rest we overwhelmed in the Flood.
    37:75-82


    Quote
    11:44 (Noah's) son replied: "I will betake myself to some mountain: it will save me from the water." Noah said: "This day nothing can save, from the command of Allah, any but those on whom He hath mercy! "And the waves came between them, and the son was among those overwhelmed in the Flood.
    11:44Then the word went forth: "O earth! swallow up thy water, and O sky! Withhold (thy rain)!" and the water abated, and the matter was ended. The Ark rested on Mount Judi, and the word went forth: "Away with those who do wrong!"

  • Help Me!
     Reply #671 - March 30, 2014, 08:26 PM

    Regarding ijaz al-Quran or inimitability doctrine, the following paper will be useful - http://www.scribd.com/doc/211402086/Sophia-Vasalou-The-Miraculous-Eloquence-of-the-Quran

    And this fun discussion might be interesting to some extent- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCZTBX_tK_8
  • Help Me!
     Reply #672 - March 30, 2014, 09:14 PM

    Hi Captain, some of those points have been already addressed but I'm still thankful for them (and you gave also new insight). Are you the author of Dawahganda? I once found the blog and felt it to be really good, but I just lost the site. Thanks for bringing it up so I get the link!

    Mr. Murtad, I see your points but as I read the Surah it seemed like it was only a prayer of Noach and not necessarily shows that every unbeliever was wiped out from the earth. And doesn't al-joodi just mean high place instead of mountain? Could be hill or whatever?


    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #673 - March 30, 2014, 09:18 PM

    What do you mean "doesn't al-Joodi mean"? How would you possibly know what it means?
  • Help Me!
     Reply #674 - March 30, 2014, 09:25 PM

    Thanks and yes, both the embryology and dawahganda blogs are mine
  • Help Me!
     Reply #675 - March 30, 2014, 09:32 PM

    I just have in the top of my mind a memory that there are multiple mountains with word judi/joodi in their name, but I may have mistaken as the Arabic words just sound the same to me. Also Wikipedia further declares that it just means high place. I'm sorry if I represented it too confidently, I didn't mean it means high place instead of some special mountain but asked based on my memory.
    So is it a name of exact mountain or does it just mean elevated place in your opinion?

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #676 - March 30, 2014, 09:35 PM

    Quote
    Also Wikipedia further declares that it just means high place.


    Where?

    Quote
    that there are multiple mountains with word judi/joodi in their name


    Like what?
  • Help Me!
     Reply #677 - March 30, 2014, 09:43 PM

    Quote
    Where?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Judi

    Quote
    Like what?

    I cannot name one and that's why I tried to say I just remembered that it may be. It's what we would call mutu in Finnish, meaning something just from the top of the memory which is not necessarily true. So I take it that your view is that al-judi only means the exact name of specific mountain and not just elevated place.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #678 - March 30, 2014, 09:51 PM

    As I’ve been telling you all along, there is rarely, if ever, a single interpretation of a Qur’anic verse. The books of Tafsir have identified “al-Joodi” with a wide range of mountains, from the Arabian Peninsula to Turkey. The most common identification, however, is within the mountain range in modern-day Turkey/Kurdistan.


    As for “al-Joodi” meaning “a high place,” I have never seen or heard any evidence to support this. I have never seen or heard the term used except for in reference to the mountain that Noah’s Ark supposedly rested upon according to the Qur’an and Syriac legend.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #679 - March 30, 2014, 09:53 PM

    Ok, so I guess I got mixed up with words. Or then I just totally mixed different subjects.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #680 - March 30, 2014, 09:57 PM

    Siunaa, even if it were just a high place or a hill, that makes it an even more pathetic flood! In the attempt to make it seem more realistic some say it was local, sure, but then it runs into the problems that Ishina and happymurtad pointed out up there.

    Also, as it says in the verse happymurtad showed you, Noah's son was going to go climb up the mountains to escape the flood, and he was told that he was out of luck on that front. So even if it could mean just a kind of high hill, the definition is irrelevant if we're wondering if it's local or global.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #681 - March 30, 2014, 10:00 PM

    Also, the Qur’an says that the ark “sailed with them through waves like mountains.” Even if we accept there to be a bit of hyperbole at play here, a local flood? With waves like mountains?
  • Help Me!
     Reply #682 - April 01, 2014, 04:59 PM

    Some points raised from muslims to show that Islam is in line with evolution, at least to some degree:

    -Allah is Al Bari (the Evolver)
    -"Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay." 32:7
    -And this quote from some forum that I don't remember link to, which mixes Zakariiya as Isa's grandfather but what ever:
    Quote
    Let's read some ayats from Quran to see how Allah "creates" things:

    خَلَقَكُم مِّن نَّفْسٍ وَاحِدَةٍ ثُمَّ جَعَلَ مِنْهَا زَوْجَهَا وَأَنزَلَ لَكُم مِّنْ الْأَنْعَامِ ثَمَانِيَةَ أَزْوَاجٍ يَخْلُقُكُمْ فِي بُطُونِ أُمَّهَاتِكُمْ خَلْقًا مِن بَعْدِ خَلْقٍ فِي ظُلُمَاتٍ ثَلَاثٍ ذَلِكُمُ اللَّهُ رَبُّكُمْ لَهُ الْمُلْكُ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا هُوَ فَأَنَّى تُصْرَفُونَ
    He created you from one soul(*). Then He made from it its mate, and He produced for you from the grazing livestock eight mates. He creates you in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation, within three darknesses. That is Allah , your Lord; to Him belongs dominion. There is no deity except Him, so how are you averted?
    Zumer 6 (39/6)
    (*)The word "soul" in this translation is a mistake. "Soul" means "ruh" in arabic, but the true word in the ayat is "nefs" which means physical body.
    So, what/who is this first nefs? It can be Adam (alaihis salam), or it can be a one-celled organism in prehistoric era.
    However, something is for sure. In this ayat, Allah says that the development of us in our mothers womb is a kind of creation. In the ayat, the word "خلق" is used. It is a natural fact that no babies instantaneously exist out of nowhere in his/her mother's womb.

    Let's see another ayat for understanding the meaning of "khalk":

    قَالَ كَذَلِكَ قَالَ رَبُّكَ هُوَ عَلَيَّ هَيِّنٌ وَقَدْ خَلَقْتُكَ مِن قَبْلُ وَلَمْ تَكُ شَيْئًا
    Said, "Thus [it will be]; your Lord says, 'It is easy for Me, for I created you before, while you were nothing.' " Maryam 9 (19/9)
    The one who speaks in the ayat is (we understand from previous ayats) Zekaria (who is the father of Maryam, who is the mother of Isa (Christ)). Allah says him that once he was created (with the word "khalk") before he was nothing.
    OK, what is the meaning of "creation" here? Instantaneously existing all of a sudden?
    Zekeria was a human like us. He was created the way we were.
    This ayat is the second reference to the meaning of "creation".

    اللَّهُ خَالِقُ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ ۖ وَهُوَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ وَكِيلٌ
    Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is, over all things, Disposer of affairs.
    Zumer 62 (39/62)
    This ayat tell us that Allah is creating ("khalk" again) everything. By everything, it means actually everything. Everything you know, everything you see and imagine. There is nothing instantaneously coming out of nowhere in this Universe. This is a fact no one can deny. Everything comes to existence after a circulation in the Nature. Allah crated rain, clouds, mountains, human race, animals, plants and everything else. This is how Allah creates.

    قُلْ سِيرُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ فَانظُرُوا كَيْفَ بَدَأَ الْخَلْقَ ثُمَّ اللَّهُ يُنشِئُ النَّشْأَةَ الْآخِرَةَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ
    Say, "Travel through the land(*) and observe how He began creation. Then Allah will produce the final creation. Indeed Allah , over all things, is competent."
    Ankabut 20 (29/20)
    Allah wants us to travel on the Earth ("ارض" means "Earth", not "land")(*) and observe how he create things. Every one of us travel on Earth. We go to our jobs, holidays, picnic, walk in forest, walk in the streets, etc. Did any one of you see Allah creates anything in an instant from nothing? Everything is being created with a circulation of matter, nothing is created in an instant. And, Allah states that this is how he creates. This is the way of his creation.

    اِنَّمَا اَمْرُهُ اِذَا اَرَادَ شَيْپًا اَنْ يَقُولَ لَهُ كُنْ فَيَكُونُ
    His command is only when He intends a thing that He says to it, "Be," and it is.
    Yaseen 82 (36/82)
    In this ayat, it is said that when Allah wants something, He just says "be (كُنْ / kuun)", then it "becomes (فَيَكُونُ / feyekuun)". This and some other ayats like this make some people think and claim that Allah instantaneously creates things. However, the secret key point is the conjunction word "فَ (fe)" in the ayat. It is different from "وَ (ve)" which means "and". "Fe" means "after this", and implies "a forming of events afterwards". It doesn't necessarily or absolutely mean an instantaneous happening.


    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #683 - April 01, 2014, 05:10 PM

    Siunaa Maailmaa

    Evolution means this... (taken from Elliot's essay on _Evolution and Knowledge_ http://fallibleideas.com/evolution-and-knowledge)
    Quote
    Imagine a population of animals (or bacteria, or plants). They are replicators: they create copies of themselves (offspring). (Actually, it's the genes that are replicators, not the animals themselves, but we'll overlook that.) Suppose the offspring were perfect copies. Then nothing would ever change. Thousands of years later, the animals would be exactly the same as now.

    Real animals do not make perfect copies. There is a little bit of change each generation. Offspring are mostly, but not entirely, the same as their parents. This means that over a long period of time there is the potential for a large amount of change.

    So far, it sounds like the changes would be random. But there is another factor. Some animals die before they have offspring, or fail to attract a mate, whereas others have more offspring than average. The result is that over time the population of animals will become more like the animals that are the best at creating offspring, because more of the new animals will be fairly accurate copies of those animals.

    So we have copying, with small changes, and then selection according to some criteria. And the result is that the group better meets the criteria over time. And that is the explanation of how adaptations are created, which is called the theory of evolution.


    Does the Quran say anything at all that says how evolution works? Nope. Scientists figured that out centuries after the Quran.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #684 - April 02, 2014, 07:59 PM

    What's up with the claim that Quran has error in inheritance law and it actually makes 15/12 (so more than 100% of the actual money) when counted together? I'm now kinda busy and cannot really investigate it so I would like to get some comments and look on it tomorrow more carefully.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #685 - April 02, 2014, 08:13 PM

    Mohamed didn't know math apparently.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #686 - April 02, 2014, 08:19 PM

    Allah instructs you concerning your children: for the male, what is equal to the share of two females. But if there are [only] daughters, two or more, for them is two thirds of one's estate. And if there is only one, for her is half. And for one's parents, to each one of them is a sixth of his estate if he left children. But if he had no children and the parents [alone] inherit from him, then for his mother is one third. And if he had brothers [or sisters], for his mother is a sixth, after any bequest he [may have] made or debt. Your parents or your children - you know not which of them are nearest to you in benefit. [These shares are] an obligation [imposed] by Allah . Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.
    Nisa 11.

    And for you is half of what your wives leave if they have no child. But if they have a child, for you is one fourth of what they leave, after any bequest they [may have] made or debt. And for the wives is one fourth if you leave no child. But if you leave a child, then for them is an eighth of what you leave, after any bequest you [may have] made or debt. And if a man or woman leaves neither ascendants nor descendants but has a brother or a sister, then for each one of them is a sixth. But if they are more than two, they share a third, after any bequest which was made or debt, as long as there is no detriment [caused]. [This is] an ordinance from Allah , and Allah is Knowing and Forbearing.
    Nisa 12.

    If a man dies with 2 or more daughters, a wife, and 2 parents than:

    (2/3)+(1/6)+(1/6)+(1/8 )= 27/24

    If a man dies with a mother, his wife, and 2 or more sisters:

    (1/4)+(1/3)+(2/3)=15/12

    If a women dies with a husband and brother:

    (2/2)+(1/2)=3/2

    There are many more combinations giving wrong inheritance.



    Even the bible gets its Math wrong. In the bible pi=3.

    The Abrahamic God would have failed Grade 3 Math.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #687 - April 02, 2014, 08:22 PM

    Descent, we should chat more. Afro

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Help Me!
     Reply #688 - April 02, 2014, 08:46 PM

    Some points raised from muslims to show that Islam is in line with evolution, at least to some degree:


    Adam and Eve were created in the garden of Eden which is not a physical place on Earth. It is a place in Jannah. Earth is the place for both figures after the whole fruit basket incident. So your quotes just ignore this fact. Also Muslims must present the burden of proof that 1) Jannah is real, 2) the stages along with the life-form chains leading to humans were present in Jannah as well, 3) show how #2 were placed on Earth so we could develop the theory of evolution.

    In Christian texts Eden is seen as a physical place on Earth now lost in time. So really all your quotes are doing is taken a Christian view of theistic evolution plastering Islamic verses which fit, drop verses which do not and calling it a day.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #689 - April 02, 2014, 09:23 PM

    I have a friend, aquaintance, he is ex muslim and a discoverer who believes he has found the location of eden lol  http://www.discoveryofatlantis.com/   his last expedition fell through as new technology proved his location was not the site of eden..  putting the bible and stories of creation aside, perhaps it was a real place and just some early civilization where stories of adam and eve and the greek gods originated
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