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 Topic: polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam

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  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #150 - July 05, 2014, 12:45 AM
    I just had a look for this as it came into my mind.

    وَإِن نَّكَثُوا أَيْمَانَهُم مِّن بَعْدِ عَهْدِهِمْ وَطَعَنُوا فِي دِينِكُمْ فَقَاتِلُوا أَئِمَّةَ الْكُفْرِ ۙ إِنَّهُمْ لَا أَيْمَانَ لَهُمْ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَنتَهُونَ
    If they break their oaths after their treaty and defame your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief, for verily there are no oaths sacred to them, that they might cease.
    Surah At-Tawbah 9:12

    Now, I'm sure you remember the mall attack in Nairobi. Islamists went in guns blazing. The muslims were allowed to leave, the non muslims weren't. I think one of the ways they checked if someone was a muslim was to ask the name of Mo's mum. I remember a woman who was in the attack and managed to escape with her children, one of the gunmen did the shahada to convert her. The woman, recounting the horrors of the event, said very plainly all she was thinking about was keeping her children safe, that she would of said anything he wanted to hear for that to happen. It can very easily be argued the above verse applies to this mother desperate to protect her children.

    There's also the children and teenagers kidnapped by Boko Haram. Same thing really. Many of the children/teens have probably said the shahada to survive. Faked it basically. I don't blame people in either of the above circumstances, I would of done the same thing in their shoes.

    The above verse clearly says what allah thinks of these people. You can argue it only applies to defensive warfare, but you have to admit, it can easily be used to justify the persecution of the mother protecting her children and the kidnapped schoolgirls.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #151 - July 05, 2014, 01:14 AM
    FYI, exmuslimah, don't feel like you need to defend yourself to bigmo. He's been around lately touting a ton of flawed rhetoric and largely ignoring the members who do engage him in a debate.

    Bigmo, it would be a lot nicer of you to start a new thread about the houris if you want to debate about them rather than turning this into a debate thread and trying to make exmuslimah justify her feelings to your satisfaction.
  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #152 - July 05, 2014, 01:36 AM
    Quote from: exmuslimah on July 04, 2014, 04:19 PM
    Iua, my daughter has ABS, was born with her fingers deformed.


    Bless her heart. Wish the husband would get a move on!

    Quote from: Al-Alethia on July 04, 2014, 04:59 PM
    It's even weirder than I thought, I was thinking something more like this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbxQGUBGcQ4


    Cheesy That's exactly what I was thinking of.
  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #153 - July 05, 2014, 04:27 AM
    Quote from: lua on July 05, 2014, 01:14 AM
    FYI, exmuslimah, don't feel like you need to defend yourself to bigmo. He's been around lately touting a ton of flawed rhetoric and largely ignoring the members who do engage him in a debate.

    You're right. I don't really feel like arguing. If I wanted to, I would go on youtube.
  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #154 - July 05, 2014, 04:37 AM
    ^ Cheesy

    Yep, just ignore him, we all understand you.  yes
  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #155 - July 05, 2014, 04:51 PM
    Quote from: lua on July 05, 2014, 01:14 AM
    FYI, exmuslimah, don't feel like you need to defend yourself to bigmo. He's been around lately touting a ton of flawed rhetoric and largely ignoring the members who do engage him in a debate.

    Bigmo, it would be a lot nicer of you to start a new thread about the houris if you want to debate about them rather than turning this into a debate thread and trying to make exmuslimah justify her feelings to your satisfaction.


     Afro

    I dont understand this guy. clearly from this thread anyone can see exmuslimah is going through a difficult time and he wants to start a debate here now  finmad

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #156 - July 05, 2014, 05:19 PM
    Quote from: exmuslimah on July 04, 2014, 09:21 PM
    Calm down. Islam = quran + hadith. And hadith clearly state men will have sex with hoor ul ayn. There's nothing about women having any sexual relations with those boys.
    There's a lot of disgusting stuff in the quran - for example acceptance of having slaves, encouraging of killing disbelievers, all those sadistic verses showin allah actually enjoys torturing people who disobey him etc.


    I mean that's quite an accusation. She says "for example" and I am wondering what examples she can give. I have been a Quranist now for many years and have debated and discussed the Quran maybe a thousand times dealing with all kinds of issues. I don't remember anything about encouraging slavery and killing disbelievers and stuff. Maybe she knows something about the Quran I missed. Isn't this what forums are about?

    What got my attention is when she says "there are lots of disgusting stuff". Now surely I should have not missed that in the Quran. Is there another copy of the Quran out there I am not aware off. Maybe she can enlighten me.

  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #157 - July 05, 2014, 05:24 PM
    http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3000&Itemid=178

    Here is a copy of the quraan with good tafseer and translation. Enjoy
    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #158 - July 05, 2014, 05:27 PM
    http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3000&Itemid=178

    Here is a copy of the quraan with good tafseer and translation. Enjoy


    Who is ibn kathir? Is he a Quranist? And is the Quran so difficult that we need a tafseer, which actually means interpretation. Whats wrong with a simple word for word  translation?
  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #159 - July 05, 2014, 05:32 PM
     Cheesy Bigmo, if you want to debate, you should go to the threads you already made and respond to the posts you ignored. I'm still waiting to see you answer a hard question for once instead of prowling for cheap shots.

    Exmuslimah doesn't owe you anything and she's opted
    out of your game, start another thread instead of demanding her reply. I'll meet you over there if you want even more rebuttals to pretend you didn't see.
  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #160 - July 05, 2014, 05:35 PM
    Quote from: Bigmo on July 05, 2014, 05:27 PM
    http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3000&Itemid=178
    Whats wrong with a simple word for word  translation?


    Because some people don't believe in a purely linguistic interpretation of the Quran. 
  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #161 - July 05, 2014, 05:40 PM
    Bigmo, I have enough stress already even without fighting with you. Go find other place and person to have an argument with. If anyone is willing to do it.
  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #162 - July 05, 2014, 05:43 PM
    Well obviously if you looking for ONLY quranists then yes people are reading different quraans then you are.

    I think you need to really sit and think of the logic and reality of what you are saying, preferably BEFORE responding to people here
    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #163 - July 05, 2014, 05:47 PM
    Quote from: Bigmo on July 05, 2014, 05:27 PM
    http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3000&Itemid=178

    Here is a copy of the quraan with good tafseer and translation. Enjoy


    Who is ibn kathir? Is he a Quranist? And is the Quran so difficult that we need a tafseer, which actually means interpretation. Whats wrong with a simple word for word  translation?


    I can't understand a simple word for word translation. It's too ambiguous in some parts and you need some elaboration. There is a reason the tafsir exists you know.
  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #164 - July 05, 2014, 06:04 PM
    I can't understand a simple word for word translation. It's too ambiguous in some parts and you need some elaboration. There is a reason the tafsir exists you know.


    Tafsir exists to add, delete and abrogate the verses of the Quran.
  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #165 - July 05, 2014, 06:19 PM
    I'm sorry I just had to respond even if I think it's inappropriate to start a discussion in exmuslimah's advice thread.

    Bigmo, you know that a "word by word" translation is a part of the past, no linguist or translator uses that because of obvious reasons. You lose the meaning when you translate a text word by word, because that type of translation takes no consideration for semantics or pragmatics. It's just stupid, and if you want to "understand" the Quran, a word by word translation must be the most useless type of translation you can refer to. I suggest you google translation theory, it's an entire field within linguistics, and read up on it Wink

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #166 - July 05, 2014, 06:24 PM
    Bigmo, this is not "who is right or wrong" or "will men have sex with hooris" thread. It's "I left islam mainly because of the hooris and now I lost my husband and friends and just need to connect with people" thread. Bye bye.
  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #167 - July 05, 2014, 06:27 PM
    Bigmo, this is not "who is right or wrong" or "will men have sex with hooris" thread. It's "I left islam mainly because of the hooris and now I lost my husband and friends and just need to connect with people" thread. Bye bye.



    You know you may think what i am saying is bullshit. But when you try to lose weight and work out for a week and diet and then step on the scale and realize that you have not lost any weight there are two things you can do.

    You can either say I will still continue and not lose focus OR you can say you know what, why bother will all this stress let me go and binge. You are choosing the second option.

    Maybe God brought you to me for a reason. You need knowledge. It can take you a long way.
  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #168 - July 05, 2014, 06:55 PM
    Quote from: Cornflower on July 05, 2014, 06:19 PM
    I'm sorry I just had to respond even if I think it's inappropriate to start a discussion in exmuslimah's advice thread.

    Bigmo, you know that a "word by word" translation is a part of the past, no linguist or translator uses that because of obvious reasons. You lose the meaning when you translate a text word by word, because that type of translation takes no consideration for semantics or pragmatics. It's just stupid, and if you want to "understand" the Quran, a word by word translation must be the most useless type of translation you can refer to. I suggest you google translation theory, it's an entire field within linguistics, and read up on it Wink


    I concur. From a sociological perspective, translations will only serve to reveal the ideological narrative of the dominant translator as opposed to revealing what the text actually says.

    To truly understand a word within a text you must palce it in its socio-historical context and work from there to decipher how they undertood the words back then. The interesting task then is to work from THEN to TODAY and see how the translations/meanings of the words evolved to suit emerging paradigm shifts in the norms and values of a particular society or cultural metanarrative.

    You (Bigmo, not CF) are a perfect example of this, you refuse to accept the 7th/8th century Arabic Qur'anic meaning of the words and the centuries of interpretation that followed in favour of your own particular translation which is perfectly compatible with your personal norms and values as well as reflecting the ethical concerns of the arguably postmodern (meta)society you are located within.

    Case solved.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #169 - July 05, 2014, 07:00 PM
    Quote from: Bigmo on July 05, 2014, 06:27 PM
    Bigmo, this is not "who is right or wrong" or "will men have sex with hooris" thread. It's "I left islam mainly because of the hooris and now I lost my husband and friends and just need to connect with people" thread. Bye bye.



    You know you may think what i am saying is bullshit. But when you try to lose weight and work out for a week and diet and then step on the scale and realize that you have not lost any weight there are two things you can do.

    You can either say I will still continue and not lose focus OR you can say you know what, why bother will all this stress let me go and binge. You are choosing the second option.

    Maybe God brought you to me for a reason. You need knowledge. It can take you a long way.


    You can cut, edit , crop, resize, but you can't change the truth.
    That's a stupid analogy, you can't compare reaching a goal to following the rules of a crappy book. Those are two completely different things.
  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #170 - July 05, 2014, 08:53 PM
    Quote from: Bigmo on July 05, 2014, 06:27 PM
    Bigmo, this is not "who is right or wrong" or "will men have sex with hooris" thread. It's "I left islam mainly because of the hooris and now I lost my husband and friends and just need to connect with people" thread. Bye bye.



    You know you may think what i am saying is bullshit. But when you try to lose weight and work out for a week and diet and then step on the scale and realize that you have not lost any weight there are two things you can do.

    You can either say I will still continue and not lose focus OR you can say you know what, why bother will all this stress let me go and binge. You are choosing the second option.

    Maybe God brought you to me for a reason. You need knowledge. It can take you a long way.


    What. She already told you she's not interested, dude.

    If she changes her mind she knows where to find you.

    Anyway, exmuslimah, if you're interested, you can always make posts with more privacy in the shelter board, I believe. Not all members have access to it, I think, just the mods/admins and some trusted users, so it's something to keep in mind if you ever have a sensitive subject and want to avoid people like bigmo.
  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #171 - July 05, 2014, 08:59 PM
    Thanks, Iua, I didn't know
  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #172 - July 06, 2014, 01:08 AM
    After I read most of the posts here, all I can say is, goodluck. Goodluck in working out a stable future where you can keep your sanity, while being in no danger or fear. (This goes pretty much out for all exmuslim who have such circumstances) unfortunately, I suck at giving advice so this all I can say. Tongue just goodluck exmuslimah Afro
  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #173 - July 06, 2014, 04:37 AM
    Thanks, SomaBoyConfused Smiley sometimes wishing good luck is enough  Smiley
  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #174 - July 06, 2014, 06:54 AM
    Quote from: lua on July 05, 2014, 08:53 PM
    What. She already told you she's not interested, dude.

    If she changes her mind she knows where to find you.

    Anyway, exmuslimah, if you're interested, you can always make posts with more privacy in the shelter board, I believe. Not all members have access to it, I think, just the mods/admins and some trusted users, so it's something to keep in mind if you ever have a sensitive subject and want to avoid people like bigmo.


    Why would she want to avoid people like Bigmo who want her get back together with her husband and family as the Quran encourages? Why do you encourage breaking a home over some myth? Is the need to criticize Islam to you greater than keeping a family together. I have no beef with exmuslimah but she was wrong to make that ultimatum to her husband. You don't tell a Muslim it is either me or Islam. What did she think he will say? When all she had to do is search for an alternative interpretation. But she put her trust in man and not the Quran. She lacked knowledge which can take you a long way.

    Maybe she can make me her arbiter as the Quran says. The issue is not that big. All it needs is an alternative interpretation from the Quran itself.

    All some people here are going to do is console her but they will never let her believe there is an alternative interpretation out there even when they know there is one.

    There is no evidence that sex even exists in the after life. Just because the Quran says there are beautiful women in paradise made to be partners does not mean there will be sexual relations. Just like because the Quran talks about pretty boys serving people in paradise does not necessarily mean they are there to have sex.

    Exmuslima said that boys of paradise are different as the boys talked about in the Quran are there only to serve. Than why are they young and pretty as pearls? Do they need to be such just to serve.

    If she believes as some here do that the women there are made for men to have sex with than lets also agree that the boys there are there for some woman to enjoy and gays to enjoy. Why not?

    As a Quranist either you

    1. accept that the boys and girls talked about in paradise are there for comfort and not sex.

    or

    2. accept that the boys and girls of paradise are there for sex

    But to say well one is about sex but the other is not is unethical and hypocritical.

    Maybe the pretty pearl like boys there are for the ladies and homosexuals who want to enjoy themselves in paradise with hot hunks.  grin12

    I will be opening a subject about the Quran and homosexuality next.

    So be prepared.  dance

  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #175 - July 06, 2014, 08:08 AM
    Quote from: Bigmo on July 05, 2014, 05:27 PM
    http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3000&Itemid=178

    Here is a copy of the quraan with good tafseer and translation. Enjoy


    Who is ibn kathir? Is he a Quranist? And is the Quran so difficult that we need a tafseer, which actually means interpretation. Whats wrong with a simple word for word  translation?


    You yourself said that a word for a word translation is not enough.  Grin


    Quote from: Bigmo on July 02, 2014, 06:23 PM


    As far as what adribuhunna means to me I don't know and never really thought about it. I don't believe in a purely linguistic interpretation of the Quran. The Quran uses the same words in variant ways.


    So on that thread I quoted, you claimed ignorance of what that word meant, and further that it wasn't enough as it was, because a purely linguistic interpretation is not something you believe in.

    Yet here you are, telling exmuslimah to take a purely linguistic interpretation.

    Joker. 
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #176 - July 06, 2014, 08:25 AM
    You're something else, bigmo.

    Why don't you take one of the lessons in your interpretation of the Quran and leave her alone, since error is clearly distinct from the right path and she's not interested in having you harass her back into Islam and an abusive marriage.
  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #177 - July 06, 2014, 09:02 AM
    lua, seriously, is this how Quranists are in general? I love you baby, but if I had met you while still a Quranist, I don't think I would've liked you that much....

    This is Bigmo's logic: "I've already decided that the Quran is the word of god, period. Hence any inconsistencies or immoral verses that disproves that the book is of a divine origin must be met with either denial or my unwillingness to stay consistent in how I deal with verses (sometimes linguistic approach, sometimes I just interpret them arbitrarily however I deem it fit). Meaning, I take the verse at face value if it benefits my agenda, and when I don't like the meaning when read at face value I just decide that it is impossible because I've already decided that the Quran conforms to my own moral compass"

    This means that Bigmo has still to answer my question how he explains the two portions of the Quran that deals with "unlawful sexual activity" and the verse of beating when the wife commits "nushooz". He just plainly said "well, you are affected by interpretations" even though I presented the verses without any "interpretation" and just read them at face value asking how to understand them from the Quranist point of view. You never actually explained how you can (if you ever can) reconcile them, just stating that no Quranist you've met had any problems. Well, if they are as deep in self-denial and delusional as you are, I bet they don't have any problems at all....

    You know Bigmo, it could've been interesting debating and discussing with you, if you actually gave some answers when asked questions. Instead you just repeat on and on again that we should stop being "influenced by (sunni) interpretations" or whatever without giving a consistent and logical answer how to deal with certain issues in the Quran. Bro, seriously, start answering and give proper arguments that aren't logically flawed, and stop harassing exmuslimah in her advice thread.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #178 - July 06, 2014, 09:59 AM
    Why would I want to be with my husband after he treats me like dirt just because I don't follow his religion anymore? Believe me, after my apostasy, when our arguments stopped, I said "ok, he wants to be a muslim - fine. As long as he treats me right.". Then I didn't post here for a while because I didn't want to think about islam so I wouldn't get angry with my husband again. But now when he's changed his attitude so much? Why would I still want to try and be with him?? This is my life so fuck off from me. Live your life the way you want but don't tell me what to do. I didn't want to get rough but that's enough. I've lost my patience.
  • polygamy in "jannah" led me to leaving islam
     Reply #179 - July 06, 2014, 10:58 AM
    I smile as I read your post exmuslimah! You have that fight in you   dance you are going to be just fine darling
    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
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