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 Topic: What would you do in my situation?

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  • What would you do in my situation?
     OP - February 10, 2014, 02:22 PM
    I don't know if this is the right place for this but anyways...

    I'm currently in my final year of secondary school, I am doing quite well and I intend to study at university (in the UK). However, it is not cheap, costing up to 17000 pounds for tuition alone as well as 10000 pounds for living costs for 3 years. I've received some basic scholarships worth a couple thousand pounds a year but that's it (although I hope I get something better). My main source of funding will obviously be my parents, very religious, devout folk. They do not know I am not Muslim, and if I tell them, they will probably become extremely upset. I fear I may be disowned and my main source of funding will be gone shattering all my dreams.

    Currently, I am living a lie. I pretend to pray, I go to functions I am not interested in, I have to act in believing bullshit - and I hate every moment of it. I feel bad for lying to my parents all the time, and worst part is that this illusion has to continue for 3 more years until I finish my degree. I have really no idea what to do. Do I continue lying which I find morally detestable or risk the other option?
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #1 - February 10, 2014, 02:27 PM
    Risk the other option
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #2 - February 10, 2014, 02:46 PM
    It's a tough situation, but I would not recommend you to do anything that will affect your future (for example, not being able to finnish school or graduate with a degree).

    Do you think that you'll be able to get more freedom now that you're 18, for example going out and meeting friends more frequently, not having to pretend in front of them at least? Would you get in trouble if you just had a period of "low iman" and stopped doing some religious rituals? Perhaps just not attending the masjid or lectures?

    Is it feasible for you to go to school and move into your own apartment, being able to support yourself?

    EDIT: Are you sure that tuition and living expenses for 3 whole years will only cost you around 30 000 pounds? If you recieve scholarsships, find a cheap accomodation and work part time, I think you'll be able to support yourself. You just have to think things through and make sure you don't find yourself begging to come home.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #3 - February 10, 2014, 02:51 PM
    ^
    I'm actually an international student (not in the UK) - I guess I'll have the freedom in the UK (alone in the country) to do anything. The only thing would be that I need to pretend every time I talk online or if my parents pay a visit. 30,000 pounds a year so 90,000 pounds for 3 years.
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #4 - February 10, 2014, 03:12 PM
    This is going to be very unwelcome advice as I completely understand why you find pretending morally detestable, but if you truly fear you may be disowned and your life ruined as a result, I say keep up the pretence.

    The goal you should be looking at is financial independence. Once you can live your own life with your own home and your own income independently tell them if you so wish.

    So you're in the UK for studies then? Where are you from originally?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #5 - February 10, 2014, 03:34 PM
    ^
    This is what I am leaning towards. I think my education is too important to risk. I am not currently in the UK (will be beginning September) and am Indian by birth and ethnicity.
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #6 - February 10, 2014, 03:42 PM
    I understand that you feel bad for lying, but the world is not black and white. Sometimes you'll have to lie. This is a lie that does not hurt anyone, and you do it because you must protect yourself and make sure you don't ruin your future. Once you get your degree the world will give you many more opportunities so that you do not have to lie your entire life.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #7 - February 10, 2014, 06:33 PM
    Alright, thank you all for being helpful, I now feel confident in my decision for not risking my education.
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #8 - February 10, 2014, 06:51 PM
    I never had the option of having other people pay for my education, so I did the only thing I really could do, which was to pay for it myself. I'll probably be paying my depts off well into whatever career I have afterwards. Whatever money I earn part time goes towards the cost of living. So, weigh it up. Pretend to be a Muslim for 3 years more and have no depts. Or liberate yourself and saddle yourself with dept.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #9 - February 10, 2014, 07:10 PM
    Quote from: Descent on February 10, 2014, 02:22 PM
    I don't know if this is the right place for this but anyways...

    I'm currently in my final year of secondary school, I am doing quite well and I intend to study at university (in the UK). However, it is not cheap, costing up to 17000 pounds for tuition alone as well as 10000 pounds for living costs for 3 years. I've received some basic scholarships worth a couple thousand pounds a year but that's it (although I hope I get something better). My main source of funding will obviously be my parents, very religious, devout folk. They do not know I am not Muslim, and if I tell them, they will probably become extremely upset. I fear I may be disowned and my main source of funding will be gone shattering all my dreams.

    Currently, I am living a lie. I pretend to pray, I go to functions I am not interested in, I have to act in believing bullshit - and I hate every moment of it. I feel bad for lying to my parents all the time, and worst part is that this illusion has to continue for 3 more years until I finish my degree. I have really no idea what to do. Do I continue lying which I find morally detestable or risk the other option?

    one thing i notice that you aren't questioning is whether or not the college degree is good for you.

    in the time it takes to get your degree, you could have made some money in a job, and gotten some good job skills.

    for most people, getting a job is better than going to college. you might be one of these people.

    this essay i wrote might help: http://ramirustom.blogspot.com/2013/11/rethinking-higher-education.html
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #10 - February 10, 2014, 07:13 PM
    Education is never a bad thing. It's just not always an affordable thing.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #11 - February 10, 2014, 07:16 PM
    Quote from: Ishina
    Education is never a bad thing. It's just not always an affordable thing.

    That's misleading.

    A person can learn WITHOUT school, which is free.
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #12 - February 10, 2014, 07:22 PM
    Well, you can 'learn' a thing or two about medicine (for example). But I wouldn't want to be treated by a self-taught doctor.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #13 - February 10, 2014, 07:34 PM
    Ok, I just have to give my two cents about college vs no college. First of all, if you want to live in any post-industrial country (basically, western countries in general) some kind of degree is necessary in order to have a decent chance to get a foot in the job market (linving a decent life, outside the segregated ghettos and social misery). I don't know how it is in the US, but here in Europe, the days where you could start working right after high school is over. Unqualified jobs (jobs that don't require a degree) are so few that most go to people who haven't had the chance to contrinue into college. For example, immigrant with little or no schooling or people from the lower classes who didn't have the grades to go to college. If you are an immigrant, thinking about living in Europe, there is basically slim to no chances you can build a decent life with no degree looking for unqualified job opportunities. The fact that the world is in a financial crisis does NOT make things easier. If you have an amount of capital, and have a good head for buisniess, you can start something on your own. Immigrants are a huge part of that, at least here in Sweden. But I wouldn't recommend it...
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #14 - February 10, 2014, 08:02 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on February 10, 2014, 07:22 PM
    Well, you can 'learn' a thing or two about medicine (for example). But I wouldn't want to be treated by a self-taught doctor.

    To be clear, just because someone has a medical degree, that doesn't mean he's a good doctor.

    In any case, there are lots of good jobs that don't need a degree, for example, programming jobs.
  • Re: What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #15 - February 10, 2014, 08:10 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on February 10, 2014, 08:02 PM
    To be clear, just because someone has a medical degree, that doesn't mean he's a good doctor.

    In any case, there are lots of good jobs that don't need a degree, for example, programming jobs.

    Sure, but there are only so many programming jobs. And there wouldn't even be a computer industry without an at least partially educated society. And like Cornflower said, if you want anything above minimum wage, you're probably gonna have to have a certain level of education.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #16 - February 10, 2014, 08:18 PM
    Don't know what kind of "programming" jobs you are talking about, but the only jobs where a high school diploma is enough (and without a high school diploma you are basically a persona non grata on the job market) are industrial jobs, like puting car parts together, or serving people on restaurants and McDonalds. Cleaning-ladies, and working in elderly homes cleaning old people and feeding them.

    And no, a medical degree does not make you a good doctor. But a medical degree is a must if you want to work as doctor in the first place... So, completely irrelevant argument...
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #17 - February 10, 2014, 08:54 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on February 10, 2014, 08:10 PM
    Sure, but there are only so many programming jobs.

    That's a bad way to look at the issue. First of all, most programmers suck ass at programming. So it's easy to become better than the worst ones. Meaning that it's easy to get a programming job by just being better than the worst ones.

    Second, the number of jobs is dynamic, and with respect to programming, the number of jobs is going up.
    Quote from: Ishina on February 10, 2014, 08:10 PM
    And there wouldn't even be a computer industry without an at least partially educated society.

    The context of our discussion is a person deciding whether or not he should go to school. So, how is your point about what other people are doing in other industries matter to his decision? It doesn't.

    Second, just because most industries currently trust school education doesn't mean it's right for them to do so.
    Quote
    And like Cornflower said, if you want anything above minimum wage, you're probably gonna have to have a certain level of education.

    What does "probably going to have to" mean? Are you trying to say that, on average, people who don't get college degrees don't have good wages? Well, so what? That doesn't mean that a specific person should choose to go to college. He can be one of the minority that doesn't get degrees and does earn good wages.
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #18 - February 10, 2014, 09:13 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on February 10, 2014, 07:22 PM
    Well, you can 'learn' a thing or two about medicine (for example). But I wouldn't want to be treated by a self-taught doctor.

    Just imagine someone being operated by a self-taught surgeon  Cheesy
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #19 - February 10, 2014, 09:23 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on February 10, 2014, 08:54 PM
    The context of our discussion is a person deciding whether or not he should go to school. So, how is your point about what other people are doing in other industries matter to his decision? It doesn't.

    Because the requirement for a level of education applies broadly, in UK at least. Skilled work especially. Any specific industry is just an example.

    Quote from: RamiRustom on February 10, 2014, 08:54 PM
    What does "probably going to have to" mean? Are you trying to say that, on average, people who don't get college degrees don't have good wages? Well, so what? That doesn't mean that a specific person should choose to go to college.

    Well, sure, it depends on whether you want a good wage or a bad wage.

    Quote from: RamiRustom on February 10, 2014, 08:54 PM
    He can be one of the minority that doesn't get degrees and does earn good wages.

    Or he could get an education and increase his odds and options. There is currency to having an education. Aside from the implied knowledge base in a certain area, that person also has evidence of commitment to long term goals within that area, evidence of attendance, plus would have people of authority in that area who could give him or her a reference or testimony of character, and so on. It also looks good on a CV. If a prospective employer has a stack of applications to choose from, someone more educated would be more immediately eyecatching. And with skilled labour especially, an employer would either have to employ someone already educated or pay an employee to be educated.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #20 - February 10, 2014, 09:34 PM
    Quote from: Ishina
    Or he could get an education and increase his odds and options. There is currency to having an education. Aside from the implied knowledge base in a certain area, that person also has evidence of commitment to long term goals within that area, evidence of attendance, plus would have people of authority in that area who could give him or her a reference or testimony of character, and so on.

     
    But you're missing the fact that schooling cost time and money, so it doesn't just increase odds and options, and what it actually does is increase some odds and options while necessarily decreasing other odds and options.

    Quote from: Ishina
    It also looks good on a CV. If a prospective employer has a stack of applications to choose from, someone more educated would be more immediately eyecatching. And with skilled labour especially, an employer would either have to employ someone already educated or pay an employee to be educated.


    Looks good on a CV? Looks good to whom? To people who care about prestige/authority. It doesn't look good to people who don't care about prestige/authority.
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #21 - February 10, 2014, 09:47 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on February 10, 2014, 09:34 PM
    But you're missing the fact that schooling cost time and money, so it doesn't just increase odds and options, and what it actually does is increase some odds and options while necessarily decreasing other odds and options.

    You mean spending time getting an education decreases the time available that could be spent working in a job that doesn't require education? Or that education is specialised? Or both? Or something else?

    Quote from: RamiRustom on February 10, 2014, 09:34 PM
    Looks good on a CV? Looks good to whom? To people who care about prestige/authority. It doesn't look good to people who don't care about prestige/authority.

    To an employer with a stack of applications on their desk, who wants to shortlist them. And to someone who cares about the kind of applicable and necessary knowledge base a prospective employee might have.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #22 - February 10, 2014, 10:00 PM
    We cannot know the whole situation by few posts, but based on the info I got I would advise to come clean. Lying to that degree for your own good is not good in my eyes. But I cannot say.
    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #23 - February 11, 2014, 12:02 AM
    Quote from: Descent on February 10, 2014, 02:22 PM
    I don't know if this is the right place for this but anyways...

    I'm currently in my final year of secondary school, I am doing quite well and I intend to study at university (in the UK). However, it is not cheap, costing up to 17000 pounds for tuition alone as well as 10000 pounds for living costs for 3 years. I've received some basic scholarships worth a couple thousand pounds a year but that's it (although I hope I get something better). My main source of funding will obviously be my parents, very religious, devout folk. They do not know I am not Muslim, and if I tell them, they will probably become extremely upset. I fear I may be disowned and my main source of funding will be gone shattering all my dreams.

    Currently, I am living a lie. I pretend to pray, I go to functions I am not interested in, I have to act in believing bullshit - and I hate every moment of it. I feel bad for lying to my parents all the time, and worst part is that this illusion has to continue for 3 more years until I finish my degree. I have really no idea what to do. Do I continue lying which I find morally detestable or risk the other option?


    I'm in the same situation as you. I once rebelled against Islam in front of my family, but my parents and brothers kept trying to proselytize me. They used amateur arguments like the miracle of 19, Gospel of Barnabas, and the numerical mathematical patterns in the Qur'an (e.g. the word yawm appears 365 times in singular form). Eventually, in order to shut them up, I decided to "revert back to Islam".

    As of now, I lie about praying and intend to secretly eat and drink water for Ramadan. I'm convinced that my parents will never leave Islam but my brothers still have a chance because they haven't lived many years worshipping this sadistic tyrant called Allah. I intend to keep lying to them until I've researched Islam enough.

    In your situation, it depends on your parents. If you have hardcore Muslim parents, then I would keep lying.
    Me: Hey Allah!
    Allah: KAFIR!
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #24 - February 12, 2014, 09:45 PM
    Lying and leading a double life isn't ideal, but life isn't a bed of roses and we have to do what is needed to survive. We are all responsible for our own welfare. Friends and partners come and go, parents and relatives die or kick us out. There are NO guarantees in life that people will always be there for you either financially or emotionally. So it is up to us to look after ourselves.

    Achieving financial independence (and keeping it) is the most important goal of a person's life IMO and the sooner you can attain it, the better. For most people, this involves laying the foundation through some sort of further education and maybe additional specialisation in future. If your parents are currently able and willing to support you in this, make use of the opportunity!

    However, since you are an ex-muslim, you need to think even more about long term life goals and plans as this is crucial to your wellbeing. Lying and deception is useful in the short term for a few years, but it becomes very difficult to maintain as the years go by, so realise that one day you will have to leave home and live on your own. Hopefully it will be on your own terms and when you are ready, instead of being kicked out.
    You may be fortunate enough to settle abroad, or you may not. Maybe you'll find a great job in India that allows you to live away from your parents. Who knows... Sketch out plans and backup plans.

    Do your research. What do your job prospects look like once you finish your three year degree? Would you need additional qualifications like a Masters? Would it be more cost effective to do a bachelors in India and a masters / PhD abroad?
    It's tricky for sure... most employers insist on graduate degrees, but there are so many graduates now that there are hundreds of applications for a single job.

    Also, it is increasingly difficult for international students, especially in the UK, to stay on after they graduate. Post-study work has been significantly curtailed and there are time limits. It is not impossible though, if you prepare well and make good contacts. Try and save as much money as you can!! I cannot stress the importance of this.

    Even though you feel guilty, it is important to get your parents to fund your education, so that you can get a good job in the future. AFAIK there is no social safety net in India. If your parents kick you out, you are in deep shit as you probably know. Education funding and grants, social housing etc... these things are available to UK citizens which can make it slightly easier to leave home and become independent. It's not a walk in the park, but at least it provides some level of support. There is nothing of the sort in India, so you need to be really careful.

    It will require some self discipline and inner strength, but I'm sure faking some prayers and acting devout for 3-4 years is a small price to pay for being able to achieve a degree in your choice of career.  Smiley
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #25 - February 12, 2014, 10:02 PM
    "Even though you feel guilty"

    Wait a minute, what the fuck do you feel guilty about?

    Guilt implies wrongdoing. Are you thinking that lying in your situation is wrong? It's not. I wonder if you still have some bad ideas from Islam.

    Lying is not wrong in and of itself.

    Lying, as a means to hurt an innocent person, is wrong.

    Lying, as a means to protect oneself from somebody who wants to hurt you, is right!!!

    So, do you think you are wrong for lying to your parents about your disbelief of Islam? If so, why? What harm is it causing, and on whom? And whose fault is it that your parents would do bad things to you if they knew the truth about your disbelief in Islam?
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #26 - February 12, 2014, 10:39 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on February 12, 2014, 10:02 PM
    Guilt implies wrongdoing.


    Yes it does. Smiley
    It doesn't matter if you are a muslim, christian or hindu. All indians are raised to place reverential respect for parents, family, honour etc. It is drilled into heads from an early age to never disappoint parents, they sacrifice so much for you, they know what's best for you and so on.
    So naturally, when you reject your parent's religion, it is viewed as rejecting your parents. Hence the guilt. Even if you know "logically" there is no actual wrong, your apostasy will cause them pain and shame.
    And when religious parents sacrifice a lot of savings to help you study abroad, it's a double dose of guilt, because you are "using" them for their money, but still rejecting their faith and also pretending to be devout.
    Guilt is normal and a natural outcome of such an upbringing. It's not a healthy outlook, but it means you have an conscience. Over time, the guilt will subside. It is part of the healing process.
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #27 - February 12, 2014, 11:24 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on February 12, 2014, 10:02 PM
    "Even though you feel guilty"

    Wait a minute, what the fuck do you feel guilty about?

    Guilt implies wrongdoing. Are you thinking that lying in your situation is wrong? It's not. I wonder if you still have some bad ideas from Islam.

    We can't help it sometimes that putting our own interests above those we care about, even if we have every right to, can make us feel uneasy. That's what we get for being evolved social animals with empathic compulsions.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #28 - February 13, 2014, 12:52 AM
    Quote from: Sir Wankalot on February 12, 2014, 10:39 PM
    It doesn't matter if you are a muslim, christian or hindu. All indians are raised to place reverential respect for parents, family, honour etc.

    the same as many cultures.
    Quote from: Sir Wankalot on February 12, 2014, 10:39 PM
    It is drilled into heads from an early age to never disappoint parents,

    which is wrong on their part.
    Quote from: Sir Wankalot on February 12, 2014, 10:39 PM
    they sacrifice so much for you,

    again, wrong on their part. if they had such a crappy situation that they "needed" to sacrifice for you, then they shouldn't have brought you to this world by giving you birth. let's remember who chose for you to be born. it wasn't *you*. it was your parents.
    Quote from: Sir Wankalot on February 12, 2014, 10:39 PM
    they know what's best for you and so on.

    which is false.
    Quote from: Sir Wankalot on February 12, 2014, 10:39 PM
    So naturally, when you reject your parent's religion, it is viewed as rejecting your parents. Hence the guilt.

    The feeling of guilt would only happen if you *agree* with those ideas. Just because these ideas were pushed on you doesn't mean that you live your life by them. And for the people that did live their lives by this crap, fortunately they have the ability to rid of themselves of it.
    Quote from: Sir Wankalot on February 12, 2014, 10:39 PM
    Even if you know "logically" there is no actual wrong, your apostasy will cause them pain and shame.

    Not your fault. That's *their* fault.
    Quote from: Sir Wankalot on February 12, 2014, 10:39 PM
    And when religious parents sacrifice a lot of savings to help you study abroad, it's a double dose of guilt, because you are "using" them for their money,

    Bullshit. The parents brought him to this world. It's their responsibility to help their children become independent adults. And this is their responsibility regardless of whether or not the child decides to believe certain things, like religion.
    Quote from: Sir Wankalot on February 12, 2014, 10:39 PM
    but still rejecting their faith and also pretending to be devout.

    So what? If they feel bad, it's *their* fault for doing so. They should change their minds. They are being stubborn.
    Quote from: Sir Wankalot on February 12, 2014, 10:39 PM
    Guilt is normal and a natural outcome of such an upbringing. It's not a healthy outlook, but it means you have an conscience. Over time, the guilt will subside. It is part of the healing process.

    Time doesn't fix it. Some people live and die never fixing the guilt. Why? Because they never actually change their minds on the subject. They continue believing that they are guilty. They continue holding on to the guilt trip of altruism, even though they've gotten rid of the wrapper (religion).

    What fixes it is changing your mind.
  • What would you do in my situation?
     Reply #29 - February 13, 2014, 12:57 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on February 12, 2014, 11:24 PM
    We can't help it sometimes that putting our own interests above those we care about, even if we have every right to, can make us feel uneasy. That's what we get for being evolved social animals with empathic compulsions.

    Wait, are you saying that if you were in his situation (or a similar situation) you would feel guilty?

    What do you mean by "putting our own interests above those we care about"? The context is an ex-muslim who is lying to his muslim parents so that they continue paying his college tuition.

    Are you saying that the guy is "putting [his] interests [of wanting college tuition paid by parents] above [his parent's interests, of not wanting to pay for his college tuition if he wasn't a muslim]"?
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