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 Topic: Adam - the first human?

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  • Adam - the first human?
     OP - March 03, 2014, 03:01 PM
    I have come across a few Muslims who know that they cannot reasonably deny human evolution, and maintain that the quran leaves enough room in interpretation for Adam not to have been the first human.

    I asked if Adam's mother was a human, and they said yes, and they denied the extent to which Muslims agree that Adam was the first human, made from clay, with no mother. They said that instead, he is the first prophet or messenger.
    I then suggested this would mean that there were humans before Adam who had not received a messenger, which is also problematic for the quran, and the conversation ended there.

    Do they have any ground to stand on?





  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #1 - March 03, 2014, 03:09 PM
    No, Adam was clearly the first human according to the religious texts. But as with everything else, when people with cognitive dissonance try to make things work, they are willing to twist and turn everything. Loosing faith and religion can be a very frightening thing for most people.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #2 - March 03, 2014, 03:56 PM
    Quote from: dr_sloth on March 03, 2014, 03:01 PM
    I have come across a few Muslims who know that they cannot reasonably deny human evolution, and maintain that the quran leaves enough room in interpretation for Adam not to have been the first human.

    I asked if Adam's mother was a human, and they said yes, and they denied the extent to which Muslims agree that Adam was the first human, made from clay, with no mother. They said that instead, he is the first prophet or messenger.
    I then suggested this would mean that there were humans before Adam who had not received a messenger, which is also problematic for the quran, and the conversation ended there.

    Do they have any ground to stand on?

    Yes they do dr_sloth.,  it is right there in Quran...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #3 - March 03, 2014, 04:23 PM
    Of course Adam is considered the first human in the Qur’an. Of course the Qur’an goes completely against human evolution. But when faced with the choice between saying absolutely ridiculous things or disbelieving in Islam all together, most Muslims will choose saying absolutely ridiculous things.
  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #4 - March 03, 2014, 04:25 PM
    do they know it is ridiculous? I feel like they do. If so, what exactly are they hoping to achieve?
    They are just hoping I might not notice that it is ridiculous?
  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #5 - March 03, 2014, 04:30 PM
    I honestly don’t know. I would assume they must realize how ridiculous they sound. But I don’t think they care, so long as they can hold onto their faith.

    Whatever works for them. I’ve reached a point where I have run out of f*cks to give.
  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #6 - March 03, 2014, 04:35 PM
    It won't be long before a Muslim somewhere starts teaching this:

    Quote from: happymurtad on March 30, 2013, 05:57 PM
    OK. I’m bored. Let’s do the same thing for the creation of Adam. Now remember, every verse in the Qur’an is important, so we need to be able to explain the metaphoric importance of each verse.

    When Allah said to the Angels that he was creating man from clay, what he really meant was that he was creating  a primitive organism that would, over several billion years, evolve over and over again into countless different species.

    When Allah said that he “fashioned” him, he meant that he decreed for factors like climate, food supply, terrain, and predators to determine which of those countless species would go extinct and which would survive to pass their genetic makeup on to give humans the appearance and makeup they have today.

    When Allah says that he breathed life into him, what he really meant was he allowed for the first land-dwelling life form to be able to inhale oxygen.

    When he says that he commanded the angels to bow down, he means that he allowed for these animals to be able to perceive and interpret light through their sense of sight—as angels are made of light. Satan, who is a metaphor for fire, remained a threatening force against early homo sapiens and thus “refused to bow down” to Adam. Unless they are able to “tame satan’s urges,” or control fire, it would remain a potentially deadly force against humans and their environment. 

    When Allah says that Adam was outcast from the garden, what he really means is that homo sapiens had to move out of the African savannah, where they originally evolved, to find better land and climates elsewhere.

    When Allah says that eating from the forbidden tree caused Adam and Eve to notice their nakedness, what he really means is that by the time mankind moved into climates that were conducive to agriculture, they also had to produce clothing to protect them from the elements.

    This is all making sense now! Laa ilaha illa lah!




  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #7 - March 03, 2014, 04:38 PM
    Who wants to cp that to a dawaah site and see what happens?
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #8 - March 03, 2014, 04:39 PM
    When I was a Muslim, I knew what science, reason and common sense told me, and what Islam taught. I knew what I really believed, and what I as a Muslim was supposed to believe. So when not among Muslims, I just kept quiet not talking about all these nonsensical things I was supposed to believe. When among Muslims, I tried to discuss and talk about other things that didn't need a great amount of cognitive dissonance. When confronted with "uncomfortable" facts, like denial of evolution and a ludicrous tale of "origin of life", I mentally held my hands over my ears singing "la la la I don't care, I don't have to deal with this right now".  
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #9 - March 03, 2014, 04:45 PM
    They could go the Christian (the more secular ones) route and make it all metaphorical. But I guess that would defeat the purpose.
  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #10 - March 03, 2014, 04:49 PM
    As a kid, I always imagined Adam as a sort of gingerbread man.
  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #11 - March 03, 2014, 04:54 PM
    Quote from: Descent on March 03, 2014, 04:45 PM
    They could go the Christian (the more secular ones) route and make it all metaphorical. But I guess that would defeat the purpose.


    that would mean that they no longer "make no distinction between any of His messengers"

    a metaphorical messenger is certainly distinct from a literal one.
  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #12 - March 03, 2014, 05:06 PM
    Yeah, the point is Adam did not exist, at least no more than Steve, Bob, Billy, Jim, or whichever name you want. Humans did not have a genetic bottleneck of less than a couple thousand individuals so as far as I know, the idea that we all descend from one women and one man is not true. And this is pretty clear in the Quran.
  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #13 - March 03, 2014, 05:16 PM
    Before the creation of Adam, there are indeed similar sorts of journal of human (e.g. Peking Man etc) but not of Adam are very perfect. But they are all gone or vanished by Allah. One reason none of worship to Him. Then Allah made Adam the shape of Himself.

    In The Bible ... "God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him ".
    Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #14 - March 03, 2014, 05:30 PM
    S.A.M jumps in to holes of Quran and holes of bible  without any hesitation. He jumps one black hole to other black hole very quickly .

    Quote from: S.A.M says on March 03, 2014, 05:16 PM
    Before the creation of Adam, there are indeed similar sorts of journal of human (e.g. Peking Man etc) but not of Adam are very perfect.

    is it Adam or Adams??

    yes..yes Adam ARE very perfect., perfect in the sense of what? his height, weight color and contour's of his body??  So  S.A.M  Peking man was before Adam?? is Adam after Neanderthals or before Neanderthals?

    Quote
    One reason none of worship to Him. Then Allah made Adam the shape of Himself.

     
    No..No that is not himself SAM., it is AllahSELF.,  Yap allah made  Adam the shape of ALLAHself

    Quote
    In The Bible ... "God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him ".

    How about in Quran S.A.M? and how about in your Sufiran?? God created man in His own image in all those alleged scriptures of allah/god??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #15 - March 03, 2014, 05:36 PM
    sam, are you saying Adams mother was an imperfect type of ape woman?
  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #16 - March 03, 2014, 05:36 PM
    The hadith narrated:  “Allah created Adam in His/his image (`ala suratihi)” Abu Hurayrah by both Bukhari and Muslim.
    Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #17 - March 03, 2014, 05:39 PM
    Quote from: dr_sloth on March 03, 2014, 05:36 PM
    sam, are you saying Adams mother was an imperfect type of ape woman?

    In Islam teachings...Adam was created without a mother or father.
    Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #18 - March 03, 2014, 05:40 PM
    Wait. So you think Allah is in the same shape as Adam? Really?

    Do you think Allah has a liver? Or taste buds? Or toes and toe hair?
  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #19 - March 03, 2014, 05:43 PM
    Quote from: S.A.M on March 03, 2014, 05:36 PM
    The hadith narrated:  “Allah created Adam in His/his image (`ala suratihi)” Abu Hurayrah by both Bukhari and Muslim.

    S.A.M.  why go in to STUPID HADITH., when Quran is full of Adam gibberish?? here

    Quote
    And He taught Adam all the names , then He showed them to the angels and said, "Tell Me the names of these if you are truthful." ( Al-Baqara,  Verse #31)

    He said: "O Adam! Inform them of their names," and when he had informed them of their names, He said: "Did I not tell you that I know the Ghaib (Unseen) in the heavens and the earth, and I know what you reveal and what you have been concealing?" (Al-Baqara,  Verse #33)

    And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves before Adam.". And they prostrated except Iblis (Satan), he refused and was proud and was one of the disbelievers (disobedient to Allah).  (    Al-Baqara, , Verse #34)


    Look at that nonsense right in the Quran... There is no need to go int hadith S.A.M ....
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #20 - March 03, 2014, 05:44 PM
    I meant 20 attributes of Allah..
    Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #21 - March 03, 2014, 05:45 PM
    Quote from: S.A.M on March 03, 2014, 05:39 PM
    In Islam teachings...Adam was created without a mother or father.


    How would you convince these Muslims I mentioned who disagree with that?
  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #22 - March 03, 2014, 05:47 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on March 03, 2014, 05:40 PM
    Wait. So you think Allah is in the same shape as Adam? Really?

    Do you think Allah has a liver? Or taste buds? Or toes and toe hair?



    As Milan Kundera once crudely put it:

    “Spontaneously, without any theological training, I, a child, grasped the incompatibility of God and shit and thus came to question the basic thesis of Christian anthropology, namely that man was created in God's image. Either/or: either man was created in God's image - and has intestines! - or God lacks intestines and man is not like him.

    The ancient Gnostics felt as I did at the age of five. In the second century, the Great Gnostic master Valentinus resolved the damnable dilemma by claiming that Jesus "ate and drank, but did not defecate."

    Shit is a more onerous theological problem than is evil. Since God gave man freedom, we can, if need be, accept the idea that He is not responsible for man's crimes. The responsibility for shit, however, rests entirely with Him, the creator of man.”
  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #23 - March 03, 2014, 06:02 PM
    Quote from: dr_sloth on March 03, 2014, 05:45 PM
    How would you convince these Muslims I mentioned who disagree with that?

    I don't think so... majority of Muslim disagree with it.

    Adam was created without a mother or father.
    Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #24 - March 03, 2014, 06:12 PM
    I agree with you that according to islam, Adam was the first human.
    That is one reason how I know that Islam is false.
    But there are some Muslims (the ones who understand evolution a bit more) who say that Adam was not the first human.
  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #25 - March 03, 2014, 06:17 PM
    I mean, come on. Can you ask for their evidence for that, I mean from the religious texts? Both the quran and the hadith mention Adam as the first human creation, and the story of Eden and creation of woman and everything... it is pretty clear that this is supposed to be taken literally (because this is what Mo himself taught), so there is no possibility whatsoever for them to claim this saying it is "islamic theology". It goes against the texts. Only by being a quranist, and twisting and turning the verses in the quran, maybe they could say it is a possible interpretation. But even then, it's a pretty lame one.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #26 - March 03, 2014, 06:20 PM
    what they said was that there are plenty of 'scholars' who say islam is compatible with evolution.

    Maybe there are, but I doubt that a single one of them knows anything about evolution, and are therefore unqualified to judge.
  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #27 - March 03, 2014, 06:24 PM
    It almost feels useless to talk to people like that, because they are intentionally not using their brains. OK, so someone said evolution is compatible with Islam. That doesn't make it true, and you only have to mention the Adam and Eve story including 90 foot tall human beings and the discussion is over. If they want to invent a whole new Adam and Eve story, that s an entirely different matter, and they can't really attribute it to Islam if they don't provide textual evidences for it.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #28 - March 03, 2014, 06:54 PM
    The alleged Qur'anic verses which line up with evolution seem really flimsy to me.

    "Created you in stages" - Could well be referring to Qur'anic 'embryology' or the process by which Adam was fashioned from clay. If this is really an allusion to human evolution, then it flies in the face of the Adam story.

    "And Allah has Created every animal from water" - I imagine this would have been evident to anyone living in the desert. Neglects to mention plants. For those apologists who insist this is a reference to life emerging from a primordial soup somewhere in the ocean, why not replace 'from water' with 'from the sea'?

    "of them are some creeping on their bellies; some walk on two legs; and some on four" - Neglects to mention insects, birds, fish, bacteria, etc. In any case, I don't see how this lines up with evolution, it just seems like a rudimentary observation.

    Apologists seem to cite 'the Evolver' from the hundred names of Allah as further evidence. If this is the case, why not use the term 'evolve' in no implicit terms in the Qur'an rather than some vague passages which could very well be referring to something completely unrelated? In fact why make the alleged allusions to evolution so ambiguous altogether?
  • Adam - the first human?
     Reply #29 - March 03, 2014, 07:07 PM
    All those verses have a pretty clear dhahir meaning to them, scholars have already discussed them using both quran and hadith to explain what they mean. They have nothing at all to do with "evolution". Confused Muslims like to take a verse and make it into something else despite their dhahir meaning already being established. It's ridiculous. And in the end, so what? Even if these particular verses are "compatible", there are twice or even more the verses that explicitly goes against evolution.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
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