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Theme Changer

 Topic: Morally bad verses

 (Read 8112 times)
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  • Morally bad verses
     OP - March 04, 2014, 06:23 PM

    Here I intend to ask about the usually quoted verses by critics of Islam. To study if they really are bad or just misused.

    I first start with this, about cutting the hand off of the thief:

    Quote
    Cut off (from the wrist joint) the (right) hand of the thief, male or female, as a recompense for that which they committed, a punishment by way of example from Allah. And Allah is All-Powerful, All-Wise.
    But whosoever repents after his crime and does righteous good deeds (by obeying Allah), then verily, Allah will pardon him (accept his repentance). Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

    Quran 5:38-39


    I found two quotes from Al-Bukhaari but cannot find verse number or anything, so take these with less reliability:

    Quote
    The hand (of the thief) should be cut off for (the theft of) a quarter of a Dinar or more.

    Quote
    May Allaah curse the thief who steals an egg and has his hand cut off, or steals a rope and has his hand cut off.


    The Tafsirs include this kind of understanding:

    Quote
    And the thieving male and the thieving female (the definite article in both [nouns] relates to the subject [sc. wa’lladhī saraqa wa’llatī saraqat, ‘And the male who thieves and the female who thieves’]; because this [clause] resembles a conditional statement [sc. ‘if he thieves, if she thieves’ etc.] the fā’ has been included in the predicate [fa’qta‘ū, ‘then cut off’]) cut off their hands, that is, the right hand of each of the two from the wristbone; it is explained in the Sunna that the amputation applies to [the stealing of] a quarter of a dinar and upwards, and if the person were to re-offend, the left foot should then be amputated from the ankle, and then [on subsequent re-offending] the left hand [is amputated], followed by the right foot, after which discretionary punishment is applied; as a requital (jazā’an is in the accusative because it is a verbal noun) for what they have earned, and an exemplary punishment, for both of them, from God; God is Mighty, His way will prevail, Wise, in His creation.
    Al-Jalalayn

    Quote
    (As for the thief, both male) i.e. Tu'mah (and female, cut off their hands) the right hands. (It is the reward of their own deeds) as a punishment for their theft, (an exemplary punishment from Allah) a disgrace for them from Allah. (Allah is Mighty) in showing His anger towards the thief, (Wise) in that He decreed for him the cutting off of his hand.
    Ibn Abbas

    Quote
    http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=780&Itemid=60
    Too long to put in here so I just put Tafsir Ibn Kathir in a link. Worth reading as meaningful Tafsir


    Literally cutting off an hand seems to be intended, which sounds utterly terrible.
    I found these opposing literal cutting of the hand, claiming that Quran doesn't teach it as literal (source: http://www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/cut-off-hands-theft.htm):

    Quote
    Firstly, it should be noted that the verse makes clear whoever commits theft but repents after and makes amends, then this is acceptable to God, thus no punishment can be administered in this case. This of course would only apply to those who do this before they have to be tried and found guilty.

    Quote
    The Arabic word translated as "cut" in 5:38 is "iqtaa" and occurs 14 other times in the same verb form (QaTaA) in The Quran, and with the exception of 59:5 and possibly 69:46 all other occurrences mean the non-physical or metaphorical action of "cutting off relationship" or "ending" [2:27, 3:127, 6:45, 7:72, 8:7, 9:121, 13:25, 15:66, 22:15, 27:32, 29:29, 56:33].
    The derivatives that are read in the 2nd verb form (QaTTaA) occur 17 times. This form, which expresses intensity or frequency of the action, is used both to mean physical cutting off [5:33, 7:124, 20:71, 26:49, 13:31] and metaphorical cutting off [2:166, 6:94, 7:160, 7:167, 9:110, 47:15, 47:22, 21:93, 22:19, 23:53] as well as physically cutting/marking [12:31, 12:50]. It is interesting to note that even though 12:31 uses the more intensive verb form and both "cut" and "hands" together, it does not mean "cut off". The less intensive form is used in 5:38.

    Quote
    Secondly, the Arabic word for "hands" (aydi) is often used in The Quran in a metaphorical/metonymical manner [some examples are 2:195, 2:237, 3:3, 3:73, 5:64, 6:93, 8:70, 9:29, 23:88, 28:47, 30:36, 38:45, 48:10, 48:24, 111:1], and often has a meaning of power/means. It should also be noted that this word is in the Arabic plural meaning 3 or more hands, whilst only two people are referenced: the male and the female thief. Some have commented that this plural usage causes problems for the common interpretation of hand cutting.


    What you think is correct understanding?

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
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  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #1 - March 04, 2014, 06:59 PM

    I think it means you should cut the hand off.

    Let us remember the world of the prophet. 1400 years ago in the desert of Arabia.
    Pretty much all societies in that time would have thought nothing of slavery, severe punishments, killing enemies, concubines, animal sacrifice...

    The Koran fits in that picture. The Hadith fits in that picture. Archeology and history fit in that picture.
  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #2 - March 04, 2014, 07:43 PM

    You can try and make the verse "inapplicable" by saying that "repentance" is enough, but a very high class Muslim lady stole during Mo's time and they cut of her hand. She repented, but that didn't prevent them from cutting her hand. Other hadiths even say that Mo would cut of Fatima's hand if she stole. It is pretty clear that the dhahir meaning is intended, and was in addition practiced. What's next as an apologist excuse, that the high class lady didn't want to repent so they had to cut her, or what? Roll Eyes

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #3 - March 05, 2014, 11:46 AM

    But what about these points:

    Quote
    The Arabic word translated as "cut" in 5:38 is "iqtaa" and occurs 14 other times in the same verb form (QaTaA) in The Quran, and with the exception of 59:5 and possibly 69:46 all other occurrences mean the non-physical or metaphorical action of "cutting off relationship" or "ending" [2:27, 3:127, 6:45, 7:72, 8:7, 9:121, 13:25, 15:66, 22:15, 27:32, 29:29, 56:33].
    The derivatives that are read in the 2nd verb form (QaTTaA) occur 17 times. This form, which expresses intensity or frequency of the action, is used both to mean physical cutting off [5:33, 7:124, 20:71, 26:49, 13:31] and metaphorical cutting off [2:166, 6:94, 7:160, 7:167, 9:110, 47:15, 47:22, 21:93, 22:19, 23:53] as well as physically cutting/marking [12:31, 12:50]. It is interesting to note that even though 12:31 uses the more intensive verb form and both "cut" and "hands" together, it does not mean "cut off". The less intensive form is used in 5:38.

    Quote
    Secondly, the Arabic word for "hands" (aydi) is often used in The Quran in a metaphorical/metonymical manner [some examples are 2:195, 2:237, 3:3, 3:73, 5:64, 6:93, 8:70, 9:29, 23:88, 28:47, 30:36, 38:45, 48:10, 48:24, 111:1], and often has a meaning of power/means. It should also be noted that this word is in the Arabic plural meaning 3 or more hands, whilst only two people are referenced: the male and the female thief. Some have commented that this plural usage causes problems for the common interpretation of hand cutting.


    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #4 - March 05, 2014, 12:12 PM

    Question: why are you assuming that Arabs can't read Arabic? Remember that the guys who have been relying on these verses for over a millenium have been quite fluent in Arabic. If they take it to mean cutting hands off, why would you wish to dispute their interpretation?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #5 - March 05, 2014, 12:17 PM

    Obviously they could have forced their interpretation to it even if they knew it wasn't likely to be the correct one.
    When reading the Christian Bible it seems to be quite clear that Jesus never claimed to be God but still christians, even ones fluent in Hebre and/or Koine Greek see Trinity as Biblical.
    So from the quotes of mine one can see the main points why some disagree with the literal meaning.

    1. From 14 occurrences of word 'cut' either 12 or 13 are metaphorical.
    2. Word 'hands' often used as metaphorical.
    3. Word 'hands' used in plural of more than two while the context is about two hands.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #6 - March 05, 2014, 12:22 PM

    Ok, so given that they could have forced their intrepretation even if they knew it wasn't correct, this would imply that they believe the Quran is fallible and gives incorrect advice. How likely do you think that is?

    Also, what are you trying to achieve here? Are you determined to prove that the Quran doesn't have any bad bits in it?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #7 - March 05, 2014, 02:59 PM

    Even if it were universally accepted that it does mean to literally rend the hand from the body (I remember a popular argument was that said we were to "brand" the person's hand Cain-style to mark him as a thief), it would not be considered a morally wrong verse. The thing I hear all the time from Muslims who interpret it in the literal way is some deviation of the following argument:

    "If you know your hand will be cut off when you steal, you will not steal. It is a mercy to all people. You could put your belongings down in public and come back and they would be safe, if only Sharia law were practiced."

    I often find those who are willing to throw in a few examples of Spain from back in the good old days, or someone who wants to tell me the story of Omar deciding not to sever the hand of men who steal in particular circumstances (starvation, et cetera).

    It's kind of a waste to find out which interpretation is correct, because, no matter what, that one is easy to justify and explain away.
  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #8 - March 05, 2014, 03:32 PM

    Quote
    Ok, so given that they could have forced their intrepretation even if they knew it wasn't correct, this would imply that they believe the Quran is fallible and gives incorrect advice. How likely do you think that is?


    Belief is powerful thing. This is why we see "scholars" giving totally different meanings to verses to fit them into science. They probably know deep down that they're speaking pure crap but they can skip it because of their faith and they start living their own ideas.

    Quote
    Also, what are you trying to achieve here? Are you determined to prove that the Quran doesn't have any bad bits in it?


    No. But when debunking the strongest arguments of opposition, you can take their core away from their tower and the tower will fall. So I see this passage, think about it as literally cutting the hand off. There are two possibilities then:
    a) Either muslims provide reasons not to see them as literal (as they did in my quotes) and if nobody can debunk them, they stand quite strong.
    b) Or muslims provide reasons not to see them as literal and when even their strongest arguments are debunked,
    we can confidently say that the Quran teaches terrorism/killing/medieval

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #9 - March 05, 2014, 03:36 PM

    Even if it were universally accepted that it does not mean to literally rend the hand from the body (I remember a popular argument was that said we were to "brand" the person's hand Cain-style to mark him as a thief), it would not be considered a morally wrong verse. The thing I hear all the time from Muslims who interpret it in the literal way is some deviation of the following argument:

    "If you know your hand will be cut off when you steal, you will not steal. It is a mercy to all people. You could put your belongings down in public and come back and they would be safe, if only Sharia law were practiced."

    I often find those who are willing to throw in a few examples of Spain from back in the good old days, or someone who wants to tell me the story of Omar deciding not to sever the hand of men who steal in particular circumstances (starvation, et cetera).

    It's kind of a waste to find out which interpretation is correct, because, no matter what, that one is easy to justify and explain away.


    I don't really think it can be explained away. Religions can explain anything away but logically you cannot explain the brutality of cutting hand away, away.
    But maybe we can look at terrorism next, that should be even harder to justify if Islam indeed teaches that.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #10 - March 05, 2014, 03:53 PM

    To all, it is not a brutality. And, to many of those that I speak to, since they have never witnessed it or been in the kind of Sharia law state that they are imagining, they like to say that the cutting of hands simply will not happen since it is a huge deterrent, or will not happen more than a few times, after which we would all be better for it.

    This is what I hear, anyway. It is hard to convince someone who is justifying the acts of God that this is an injustice.
  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #11 - March 05, 2014, 04:07 PM

    I understand what you mean.
    But at least I want to know what's up with this stuff.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #12 - March 05, 2014, 04:33 PM

    Well, good luck, Siunaa. If there's a will there's a way to effectively argue it in your favor.

    But for "1. From 14 occurrences of word 'cut' either 12 or 13 are metaphorical.
    2. Word 'hands' often used as metaphorical," this reminds me of an argument I've had before regarding another passage. The one talking about all the great things you get from God, and how you take fruit from the trees and make alcohol (16:67), and how this is surely a sign of God.

    The individual I was speaking with on this matter wisely saw the problem with the "it was prohibited over time in the Quran" nonsense, and therefore tried to tell me that, despite the context of the verse (the ones before it follow the same trend with halal bounties), there was one particular word in 16:67, namely the one translated as "take," that, when you look for this word's use in other sections of the Quran, always has the connotation of someone wrongfully seizing. Therefore, he concluded that the point of these verses was not what it appeared, but, because of this little quran.com search magic, was clearly a way of reprimanding man for making alcohol out of the fruit.

    Now, I could write a book (and I did, indeed, talk his ear off until he surrendered) on why this is absurd, but I have a feeling you can see the flaws in it yourself. But the point is that this particular trick is applied from time to time, and has no bearing on the truth or the point of the passages in the Quran. I would advise against placing too much stock in point 1 and 2 of your claim, as it has failed others before.
  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #13 - March 05, 2014, 05:28 PM

    I just couldn't care less about new "linguistic" interpretations, it's cognitive dissonance gone berserk just in order for you to keep your faith intact while knowing it's nothing but bs. You always take the dhahir meaning of the verse if not stated specifically otherwise somewhere else in the texts, especially if you have additional shari' texts that support that dhahir meaning (for example, from the sunnah in this case). Its Tafseer 101.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #14 - March 05, 2014, 08:59 PM

    Well, good luck, Siunaa. If there's a will there's a way to effectively argue it in your favor.


    My favor? You mean your favor in passive way as if "you all" or did you mean my [Siunaa's] favor? Because it's not theologically meaningful to me since I'm not muslim.

    Quote
    But for "1. From 14 occurrences of word 'cut' either 12 or 13 are metaphorical.
    2. Word 'hands' often used as metaphorical," this reminds me of an argument I've had before regarding another passage. The one talking about all the great things you get from God, and how you take fruit from the trees and make alcohol (16:67), and how this is surely a sign of God.

    The individual I was speaking with on this matter wisely saw the problem with the "it was prohibited over time in the Quran" nonsense, and therefore tried to tell me that, despite the context of the verse (the ones before it follow the same trend with halal bounties), there was one particular word in 16:67, namely the one translated as "take," that, when you look for this word's use in other sections of the Quran, always has the connotation of someone wrongfully seizing. Therefore, he concluded that the point of these verses was not what it appeared, but, because of this little quran.com search magic, was clearly a way of reprimanding man for making alcohol out of the fruit.

    Now, I could write a book (and I did, indeed, talk his ear off until he surrendered) on why this is absurd, but I have a feeling you can see the flaws in it yourself. But the point is that this particular trick is applied from time to time, and has no bearing on the truth or the point of the passages in the Quran. I would advise against placing too much stock in point 1 and 2 of your claim, as it has failed others before.


    I think you have good point. I haven't even checked those verses listed in the use of those words in metaphorical sense so it might not even be true. I will put it aside and check this stuff later. Now more important stuff:

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #15 - March 05, 2014, 09:18 PM

    Now it's time for Surah 9 Verse 5, the Verse of the Sword.
    Here's the actual verse by Muhsin Khan

    Quote
    Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.


    Here's the "whole context" (9:2-8) given by Quran.com

    Quote
    So travel freely (O Mushrikun - see V.2:105) for four months (as you will) throughout the land, but know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) Allah, and Allah will disgrace the disbelievers.
    And a declaration from Allah and His Messenger to mankind on the greatest day (the 10th of Dhul-Hijjah - the 12th month of Islamic calendar) that Allah is free from (all) obligations to the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) and so is His Messenger. So if you (Mushrikun) repent, it is better for you, but if you turn away, then know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) Allah. And give tidings (O Muhammad SAW) of a painful torment to those who disbelieve.
    Except those of the Mushrikun with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqun (the pious - see V.2:2)
    Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
    And if anyone of the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) seeks your protection then grant him protection, so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Quran), and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not.
    How can there be a covenant with Allah and with His Messenger for the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) except those with whom you made a covenant near Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah)? So long, as they are true to you, stand you true to them. Verily, Allah loves Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).
    How (can there be such a covenant with them) that when you are overpowered by them, they regard not the ties, either of kinship or of covenant with you? With (good words from) their mouths they please you, but their hearts are averse to you, and most of them are Fasiqun (rebellious, disobedient to Allah).


    This is so large thing both as textual context and historical context that I really need help with this one. Are these only for defense or not?

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #16 - March 06, 2014, 01:12 AM

    Don't worry, I meant it in the impersonal sense.
  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #17 - March 06, 2014, 10:40 AM

    Surah 65 verse 4 is rather fucked up.

    Quran.com has a few different translations: http://quran.com/65/4

    Sahih International
    And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease.

    Muhsin Khan
    And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him.

    Pickthall
    And for such of your women as despair of menstruation, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months, along with those who have it not. And for those with child, their period shall be till they bring forth their burden. And whosoever keepeth his duty to Allah, He maketh his course easy for him.

    Yusuf Ali
    Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.

    Shakir
    And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.

    Dr. Ghali
    And as for those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, in case you have any suspicion, then their (fixed) spell shall be three months, (along) with those who have not menstruated (as yet). And (as for) those with burden, (i.e., those who are pregnant) their term is when they bring forth their burden; and whoever is pious to Allah, He will make for him, of His Command, easiness.



    The highlighted translations seem to be talking about underage/pre-pubescent girls. The others are more vague. Arabic speakers, would love to hear your opinions.

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #18 - March 08, 2014, 10:31 PM

    Hi people, this thread hasn't taken wind as I supposed and hoped.
    I would like to get help studying Verse of the Sword as I stated before in this thread. It's so disagreed between many muslims and then non-believers and the verses in the context are really hard to understand for me.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #19 - March 13, 2014, 06:12 PM

    Surah 65 verse 4 is rather fucked up.



    Well it's not really that clear if it is about young girls or not. Tafsirs seem to lean towards it meaning the girls before menstruation, but they probably had cultural traditions of seeing child marriage as more positive too.
    I have seen claims that this passage basically says:
    Quote
    And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah, if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have not menstruated*

    * meaning that those who are waiting on their periods but have not had them for some reason without referring to pre-puberty in any way.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #20 - March 26, 2014, 12:52 PM

    Does (Quran) Islam teach violence and physical dominance over non-believers regardless of situation?
    I know the passage of the sword, jizya tax and all that but I think it is wide subject. I've tried to study as much as I can but I cannot really grasp whether actual Quran based (+maybe Sahih Hadith) Islam really tells to slay non-believers, attack cities, have war, kill apostates and destroy non-believers societies. Muslims say slaying non-believers was very contextual commandment, they say war is only for defense or pre-evasive defense, killing apostates is un-Quranic, there's no compulsion in religion and that Jizya tax is not that special; just a tax that non-muslims pay so they don't have to fight in the army of muslims, that they have their autonomy and that Islamic state will provide them help such as protection.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #21 - March 26, 2014, 01:17 PM

    Listen man, I’m not sure how else to explain this to you.

    The Qur’an is a compilation of a bunch of different verses and ideas. They are often contradictory and incoherent, never really lending themselves to a single “true” interpretation. For every question you have asked, there are about as many interpretations as there are readers.  For the last 1400 years, Muslims have been debating what verses mean and how they should be applied. There is no one, consistent meaning that everyone can agree upon. Jihadis will tell you that the verse of the sword legitimizes their murder of non-believers. Other groups will explain away those verses to fit their own views.

    This, in my opinion, points to a great degree of shortsightedness and lack of wisdom on behalf of the author. Could Allah not have known that revealing a verse such as “kill the unbelievers wherever you find them” would lead to all sorts of unnecessary bloodshed due to all the different possible interpretations?

      One of the things I find most fascinating about the study of modern “secular” law is how detailed and specific the clauses and statutes are. I’m no expert, but go to a library and spend a day reading through books of criminal law. Look at how deliberately comprehensive and applicable it all is. Nothing in the Qur’an or ahadith can even come remotely close to comparing.  Instead, the Qur’an is a jumbled collection of contradictory ramblings that scholars have picked through in order to create the hodgepodge, backwards mess we call shariah law.
  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #22 - March 26, 2014, 01:21 PM

    Hi Mr. Murtad,
    I'm not saying that Quran would be true if it's not violent or that it would be untrue if violent.
    I'm just merely interested what it actually teaches about violence, not from divine P.O.V.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #23 - March 26, 2014, 01:27 PM

    Read through it. What it says is what it says. Everything else is interpretation. 
  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #24 - March 26, 2014, 01:28 PM

    And I’ve never been referred to as Mr. Murtad. I think I like it. Grin 
  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #25 - March 26, 2014, 01:48 PM

    Well it's not really that clear if it is about young girls or not. Tafsirs seem to lean towards it meaning the girls before menstruation, but they probably had cultural traditions of seeing child marriage as more positive too.
    I have seen claims that this passage basically says:* meaning that those who are waiting on their periods but have not had them for some reason without referring to pre-puberty in any way.


    No. Because the waiting periods for women who are thought to be pregnant and have not had their period is stipulated elsewhere

  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #26 - March 26, 2014, 02:04 PM

    What passage and verse?

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #27 - March 26, 2014, 02:16 PM

    What passage and verse?

    Siunaa M., If they are NOT morally bad verses,  Are  these verses morally good?
     
    Do one need to juggle with Arabic words to make it good?

    If they are neither morally bad nor morally good and just hand waving passer by statements, parables and pranks, then what is the point of selling them as word of allah/god/voodoo doll  whatever?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #28 - March 26, 2014, 03:04 PM

    Hi people, this thread hasn't taken wind as I supposed and hoped.
    I would like to get help studying Verse of the Sword as I stated before in this thread. It's so disagreed between many muslims and then non-believers and the verses in the context are really hard to understand for me.

    You're not going to get answers that satisfy your OCD standard. You're not going to get answers that conclusively prove a thing one way or another and deal with the minutiae of every possible objection you can think of. You're not going to get answers that definitively and categorically discredit every contention you might find on the internet. It is an endless task to meet such criteria. You will always be able to find some trivial peripheral point of dispute, always be able to find someone with some eccentric and overlooked view on a matter if you look hard enough. Eventually you're just gonna have to form an actual opinion and move on.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Morally bad verses
     Reply #29 - March 26, 2014, 03:12 PM

    Siunaa did you see this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XLg-SRGMNk

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
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