the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'

Previous page 1 2 3 45 6 7 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
- Descent
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #90 - March 22, 2014, 12:23 PM

Wait, your supposed to stone a women if she is pregnant without a husband?
- Cornflower
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #91 - March 22, 2014, 12:29 PM

If the woman has been previously married and commits fornication, then yes, she is to be stoned to death after she has given birth and weaned off the child (you know, because allah is most merciful).

"The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
- suki
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #92 - March 22, 2014, 12:39 PM

I can see the point to iddah for divorce, incase you may both decide to reconcile but the same rule for being widowed, no point to it, if hes gone hes gone, pregnancy isnt going to make any difference... Sames rules shouldnt apply, no logic there.. gosh i forgot how crazy the rulings are about stoning, cant beleive i brushed them aside and carried on believing in a merciful God..
- Descent
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #93 - March 22, 2014, 12:40 PM

Wow, the more you know...

Islam: Making children orphans since 609 AD.
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #94 - March 22, 2014, 12:58 PM

Quote from: Descent on March 22, 2014, 12:40 PM
Wow, the more you know...

Islam: Making children orphans since 609 AD.

that is NOT true.. Islam started in the year 610.. here is the brief time line starting from the year 610 Descent
Quote
610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.

614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam.
615: Persecution of the Muslims by the Quraish. A party of Muslims leaves for Abyssinia.
616: Second Hijrah to Abysinnia.
617: Social boycott of the Hashimites and the Holy Prophet by the Quraish. The Hashimites are shut up in a glen outside Makkah.
619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow.

THERE WAS NO REAL ISLAM UNTIL 619-620...

Islam making orphans and ban of ADOPTING KIDS in Islam started some where in the year 627 that started after these alleged verses revealed to Mr. PBUH

Quote
"O you who believe! Do not go into the Prophet's rooms except after being given permission to come and eat, not waiting for the food to be prepared, However, when you are called, then go in and when you have eaten, then disperse, and do not remain wanting to chat together. If you do that, it causes injury to the Prophet though he is too reticent to tell you. But Allah is not reticent with the truth. When you ask his wives for something, ask them from behind a screen. That is purer for your hearts and their hearts. It is not for you to cause injury to the Messenger of Allah nor ever to marry his wives after him. To do that would be something dreadful in the sight of Allah. Whether you make something known or conceal it, Allah has knowledge of all things. There is no blame on them regarding their fathers or their sons or their brothers or their brothers' s sons or their sisters' s sons or their women or those their right hands own. Have fear of Allah. Allah is witness over everything. Allah and His angels pray blessings of the Prophet. O you who believe! Pray blessings on him and ask for peace for him." [Quran 33:53-56]

"God did not make your adopted son as your own sons. To declare them so is your empty claim. God's word is righteous and constitutes true guidance. (Q.33: 4)."

(Sura al-Ahzab Q.33: 40): "Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but [he is] God's Messenger and the Seal of the Prophets. God is Aware of everything!"

(Sura al-Ahzab Q.33: 37): "We married her off to you so that there would be no objection for believers in respect to their adopted sons' wives once they have accomplished their purpose with them. God's command must be done!"

So in short I say Descent is wrong.. I protest it is NOT year 610.. it has to be around the year 627.. you are wrong Descent you are wrong.........

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Cornflower
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #95 - March 22, 2014, 12:58 PM

Quote from: suki on March 22, 2014, 12:39 PM
I can see the point to iddah for divorce, incase you may both decide to reconcile but the same rule for being widowed, no point to it, if hes gone hes gone, pregnancy isnt going to make any difference... Sames rules shouldnt apply, no logic there.. gosh i forgot how crazy the rulings are about stoning, cant beleive i brushed them aside and carried on believing in a merciful God..

Yeah, but the arguments don't hold up in case of khul (separation on the initiative of the wife, with the "consent" of her husband). Then you only have to wait one menstrual cycle. Some have argued that well, she really must hate her husband so she is just being spared the torture to stay with him. One cycle is enough, while in the case of talaq we must give enough time for the husband to change his mind because he always has the right to take back his wife even if she doesn't want him to do that. Whatever, don't give a fuck about the woman's feelings, they are irrelevant, right?! Anyway, I think it has more to do with the fact that in the case of khul the woman must give back her mahr and in order for the husband not to spend anymore on her, the iddah is only one month. It is basically a punishment for the woman for even daring to ask for separation. We can establish the fact that a woman is always in a lose-lose situation in regards to separation and divorce. It is practically impossible for her to do separate on her own initiative in the first place, and then she can't do it without having to fight for it and suffer tremendously both emotionally, socially and financially in the process.

"The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
- lua
- Ex-Muslim
- Grossly Incandescent
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #96 - March 22, 2014, 01:40 PM

Quote from: Cornflower on March 22, 2014, 12:58 PM
Yeah, but the arguments don't hold up in case of khul (separation on the initiative of the wife, with the "consent" of her husband). Then you only have to wait one menstrual cycle. Some have argued that well, she really must hate her husband so she is just being spared the torture to stay with him. One cycle is enough, while in the case of talaq we must give enough time for the husband to change his mind because he always has the right to take back his wife even if she doesn't want him to do that. Whatever, don't give a fuck about the woman's feelings, they are irrelevant, right?! Anyway, I think it has more to do with the fact that in the case of khul the woman must give back her mahr and in order for the husband not to spend anymore on her, the iddah is only one month. It is basically a punishment for the woman for even daring to ask for separation. We can establish the fact that a woman is always in a lose-lose situation in regards to separation and divorce. It is practically impossible for her to do separate on her own initiative in the first place, and then she can't do it without having to fight for it and suffer tremendously both emotionally, socially and financially in the process.

The complications with divorce is definitely something you don't hear honestly spoken about by many Muslim feminists. It's easy to say that it is technically possible for a woman to divorce her husband, but, especially if all other restrictions on her as per even Quranic law are in place, it's hard to pull off.

I once jokingly threatened to divorce my husband, and with a cackle he shot back, "Ha! You can't!"

He knows how it is. But you wouldn't catch him saying that to a kafir.
- Cornflower
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #97 - March 22, 2014, 02:03 PM

Well, Muslim men are more open about it, but it's not something they would include in their dawaganda. In those cases they like to spice up their "Islam liberated women 1400 years ago" with the hadith about a woman separating from her husband due to her not liking him. Well yeah, but that was because Mo gave permission for it (thus, not needing her husbands permission for separation). Everything is up to the husband, and if she doesn't get it she can refer the matter to the court. But as we all know, why would the court grant her the khul? How often does it happen? I thought a perfect religion from god would make sure that injustice like that can never occur

Furthermore, she has to give back her mahr, if she even has it. And the isn't even the worst part. There is a consensus among the scholars that she must compensate the husband with whatever he requires. So she has to "buy" herself out of the marriage, which is actually the exact words scholars have used to explain this. A woman can never independently and on her own initiative end her marriage. There is always either her husband, her wali/guardian or the judge in court that decides whether or not she can leave her husband.

"The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
- lua
- Ex-Muslim
- Grossly Incandescent
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #98 - March 22, 2014, 02:13 PM

The only part I'd have in my favor is the mahr. My pretty Quran is as good as jointly owned in our display case as it is.

But, yes, they don't include that in the welcome seminar. Only carefully carved snippets that seem promising for women, while the red tape stretches for miles.
- Cornflower
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #99 - March 22, 2014, 02:18 PM

Islam encourages women not to ask for excessive mahrs, some have even put a limit as to how much a woman can ask for (as per Umar the Misogynist's ruling). There is this ideal where god-fearing Muslimahs should ask for "beneficial" mahr such as learning quran or whatever.

But when she asks for khul, there is no such male ideal or restrictions put on the man when asking for "compensation". So he might have given you a quran in mahr, but he can ask for 10 000 US dollars if he wants to and no fatwa or ruling could stop him. There are even narrations about a woman from the tabi'een who basically gave up every single piece of possession she had, except for the rags she had on her body, in order to buy her out of the marriage. They use this case to highlight the fact that there is no shari' limit for it.

Islam, liberating women since 610 AD

"The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
- lua
- Ex-Muslim
- Grossly Incandescent
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #100 - March 22, 2014, 02:27 PM

^ I sometimes wish to have a discussion about this with an actually educated and competent Muslim feminist to see how they possibly justify these things.

I find that most of the prominent ones I run into are ones that have never had to put their money where their mouth is.
- Cornflower
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #101 - March 22, 2014, 02:34 PM

The Muslim feminists would just argue that these rulings go against the "universal principles" like Azizah al Hibri tried (don't get me started), or they would try to find reasons why such hadiths are not to be used for legislation. I've come across Fatimah Mernissi using these arguments, basically both accepting and rejecting hadith when it fits the discussion and always having "reasons" why all the bad hadiths are "unreliable"

"The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
- lua
- Ex-Muslim
- Grossly Incandescent
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #102 - March 22, 2014, 02:44 PM

As you know by now, my bottom line has always been the Quran, since I spent most of my years trying to discourage other sources. But even using the Quran alone, I cannot see anything that one could argue as an example of fairness afforded to women (much less rights that rival those of secular countries) without some other part getting in its way. To start bringing the hadith into it must be like stepping into a minefield.

Oh well.
- Cornflower
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #103 - March 22, 2014, 02:47 PM

Yeah, but the universal principles you see, they fix everything. You deduce a principle from one verse, so that you can basically annul 1/3 of the quran because you don't like it.

"Islamic feminism" logic

"The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
- lua
- Ex-Muslim
- Grossly Incandescent
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #104 - March 22, 2014, 02:48 PM

Couldn't I do the same with the part that invalidates it?
- suki
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #105 - March 22, 2014, 02:51 PM

My dowry was 100 pounds lol, thats all im worth apparently i remember the iman laughing out loud when he asked.. So glad it wasnt thousands, anyways my marriage was anulled because he went on a business trip and never came back...... Missing person lol.. i didnt have it done in a court, just his friends and family did it for me.. if he hadnt have gone away i think we would have killed each other lol, he always wanted to mould me but i wont let anyone mould or tell me how to think so it was a disaster.. anyway, i dont beleive muslims should have to go to court for a divorce or anything else, we are suppose to be equal and have witnesses for everything, not a man making decisions, even shariah was a later creation.. I would never, ever go to an islamic court with a neanderthral making decisions about my life, and i feel sorry for those that have to because of where they live..

Sorry just blurting out an uneducated rant ..
- lua
- Ex-Muslim
- Grossly Incandescent
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #106 - March 22, 2014, 03:02 PM

Quote from: suki on March 22, 2014, 02:51 PM
My dowry was 100 pounds lol, thats all im worth apparently i remember the iman laughing out loud when he asked.. So glad it wasnt thousands, anyways my marriage was anulled because he went on a business trip and never came back...... Missing person lol.. i didnt have it done in a court, just his friends and family did it for me.. if he hadnt have gone away i think we would have killed each other lol, he always wanted to mould me but i wont let anyone mould or tell me how to think so it was a disaster.. anyway, i dont beleive muslims should have to go to court for a divorce or anything else, we are suppose to be equal, even shariah was a later creation.. I would never, ever go to an islamic court with a neanderthral making decisions about my life, and i feel sorry for those that have to because of where they live..

Sorry just blurting out a rant ..

Oh, that sucks, Suki. I am sorry to hear you had a rough time.

Mahr is such a weird thing. I think some women subconsciously tie their worth to how much money they are offered by the suitor. But it really more often comes down to situations. Besides, as Cornflower said, it is encouraged to settle for lower. I can't remember it off the top of my head, but I think there was a narration that said that the best kind of woman is one with a low mahr.

Still, the imam that married us actually called me a week before our wedding and talked to me on the phone for a good 20 minutes trying to suggest a mahr that I'd accept, because apparently asking for a coin was embarrassing. It was like two days before our marriage before my husband thought to offer me his fancy Quran.

I'm glad that you are in a better situation now, though, and that you didn't have to work to get out of that marriage. And you got to keep your 100 pounds, right?
- Quod Sum Eris
- King of the
- Pub Regular
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #107 - March 22, 2014, 04:20 PM

The thing that gets me is the whole "Islam gives rights to women" thing. So many of the claims of Arabia before Mo came along seem very suspect.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- lua
- Ex-Muslim
- Grossly Incandescent
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #108 - March 22, 2014, 04:27 PM

^ In some cases, I do believe Islam gave some rights or protection to women that were new at that time in that region. But it should speak volumes that people still champion a 2000 year old minor improvement in women's rights as an example for today.
- Quod Sum Eris
- King of the
- Pub Regular
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #109 - March 22, 2014, 04:37 PM

I don't buy that. Mo's mum was a single parent. His first wife was a successful, independent, respected business woman, powerful in her own right. Some of the most important gods were female. The muslim claims of Arabia pre-islam in regards to women just doesn't add up.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- lua
- Ex-Muslim
- Grossly Incandescent
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #110 - March 22, 2014, 04:42 PM

Well, I don't much think that one historical Islamic claim is enough to disprove another, but I'm going to bow out of this one, seeing as I'm not too confident in my education on the matter.

My university courses that delved into the subject of whatever is known about women's roles on average in the tribes of pre-Islamic Arabia were in keeping with the claims of Islamic sources that I've seen. However, I am in no position to know if the material used in my courses were accurate. Not my field.

Interested to know if anyone is more confident in their knowledge of the time.
- suki
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #111 - March 22, 2014, 04:44 PM

oh i wasnt bothered about the money, i didnt even care for it, and glad i didnt have to pay to get out of a marriage.. naw i didnt have to pay it back.. actually despite our personality differences his islam was good, liberal and he used to perform divorces for local muslims here in the uk at our home, he gave the women all the rights and allowed them to divorce if they so pleased any way they wanted, he was a feminist type.. in the right hands islam can be ok i guess so.. I had some good friends who very fair and practised the right way.. We didnt need a shariah court..
- suki
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #112 - March 22, 2014, 04:51 PM

me neither, ive never really read into pre islamic history, not sure why i havent.. i do know that in other regions surrounding s.arabia women had some kind of power, but i think some s.arabia clans treated women not too good.. I dont know ? google !! : )
- three
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #113 - March 22, 2014, 05:02 PM

Quote from: Cornflower on March 22, 2014, 02:18 PM
Islam encourages women not to ask for excessive mahrs, some have even put a limit as to how much a woman can ask for (as per Umar the Misogynist's ruling). There is this ideal where god-fearing Muslimahs should ask for "beneficial" mahr such as learning quran or whatever.

But when she asks for khul, there is no such male ideal or restrictions put on the man when asking for "compensation". So he might have given you a quran in mahr, but he can ask for 10 000 US dollars if he wants to and no fatwa or ruling could stop him. There are even narrations about a woman from the tabi'een who basically gave up every single piece of possession she had, except for the rags she had on her body, in order to buy her out of the marriage. They use this case to highlight the fact that there is no shari' limit for it.

Islam, liberating women since 610 AD

This is very interesting. I remember being told women had the right to initiate divorce in certain situations. Does the buyout stipulation change in those cases, such as when the husband is apostate or neglecting her? Are there no wife initiated divorces free of it?

Don't let Hitler have the street.
- Descent
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #114 - March 22, 2014, 05:24 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on March 22, 2014, 12:58 PM
So in short I say Descent is wrong.. I protest it is NOT year 610.. it has to be around the year 627.. you are wrong Descent you are wrong.........

I am wrong .
- Quod Sum Eris
- King of the
- Pub Regular
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #115 - March 22, 2014, 05:42 PM

Quote from: suki on March 22, 2014, 02:51 PM
i dont beleive muslims should have to go to court for a divorce or anything else, we are suppose to be equal and have witnesses for everything, not a man making decisions, even shariah was a later creation.. I would never, ever go to an islamic court with a neanderthral making decisions about my life, and i feel sorry for those that have to because of where they live..

What about a real court?

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #116 - March 22, 2014, 06:04 PM

Quote from: Descent on March 22, 2014, 05:24 PM
I am wrong .

yeeehhhaaaaaa... alllaahoo akbaaarrr.

I made one ex-muslim to agree that he is wrong that should get me few raisins in allah heaven..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Quod Sum Eris
- King of the
- Pub Regular
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #117 - March 22, 2014, 06:11 PM

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- suki
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #118 - March 22, 2014, 06:16 PM

Hi Quod, you dont need one, in islam everyone is equal, no royalty, no leader just a representative, an iman is not a religious leader he just leads the prayer, muslims dont need a court, you can get married or divorced via text if u want, so long as you have witnesses for everything.. Shariah court and shariah law is a load of bs
- Quod Sum Eris
- King of the
- Pub Regular
- offline
the lies of 'Islamic Feminism'
Reply #119 - March 22, 2014, 06:18 PM

What about a real court? Any feelings on that?

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
Previous page 1 2 3 45 6 7 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »