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 Topic: Forgive my ignorance

 (Read 12641 times)
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  • Forgive my ignorance
     OP - March 25, 2014, 08:42 AM

    Something has been bothering me about religion, Islam inparticular. If anyone can help shine some light on this matter. I am wondering that if Islam is not in fact a true religion why is it that it can be studied so In depth and there are so many different branches of it like tafseer, hadith, fiqh, Aqeeda? Where did all this knowledge come from, why do people spend so much of time on these things? Are other religions just as in depth as Islam?
    And why do the scholars not see what we see when they study Islam? I mean a lot of scholars give lectures on Hell, do you think our fear or dislike of Hell clouds us from seeing what they see?

    I get the logical arguments against religion, the fairytale like stories, the contradictions and so on, but I can't understand why the religion is so intense and intensely studied and why these scholors don't see the truth? And again are other religions just as indepth as Islam in its teachings?


    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #1 - March 25, 2014, 09:05 AM

    Hellenism, and Greek Mythology, is quite complex and has a a lot of depth. You have the twelve Olympian Gods, each with many stories of their own. You have numerous 'heroes' with stories (Jason and the Golden Fleece). You have an entire war (which may have some historical bearing?) involving numerous people like Achilles and Paris.

    Have you read any of Tolkien's works? He comes up with an entire language, a religion and creation story (which is based on the things from Nordic mythology and some things from the Bible), an entire planet with a detailed history, and numerous characters in the world. It is far more interesting than any religion I've encountered.

    Tolkien>Muhammed

    The point is, humans can be very imaginative.

    Islam was not even a great piece of fictional writing considering it has been almost entirely copied. The creation myth is copied, the Noah story is copied, the known prophets were all copied. Muhammed wasn't particularly creative.
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #2 - March 25, 2014, 09:17 AM

    So majority of muslims and religious people are drawn in by a created religion they imagine/believe to be real? Aren't they the blind ones then? A lot of these religious people are actually really intelligent, do you think it is their faith that blinds them? Like there are certain don't go there questions for most muslims.

    It's just hard to believe that so many people fall for something that has no solid ground

    Why is it that they can find an excuse for everything, I mean look at the Noahs ark story, the other day I heard my mum teaching it to my little brother and I just thoguth OMW she beleives that story, and it SOUNDS like a childs fairy tale but they firmly believe it happened, and I use to not so long ago just accept it was true, but when you REALLY think about it your eyes open.
    So is it just a matter that they don't really think about these things?

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #3 - March 25, 2014, 09:35 AM

    People don't realise how similar islam is to catholicism.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #4 - March 25, 2014, 09:37 AM

    O no they realise the similarities, they just think Islam is the perfected religion. My uncle uses the all religions are similar to prove Islam is the true and final message

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #5 - March 25, 2014, 09:43 AM

    I use it to prove it's a bullshit rip-off and plagiarism.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #6 - March 25, 2014, 10:40 AM

    Something has been bothering me about religion, Islam inparticular. If anyone can help shine some light on this matter. I am wondering that if Islam is not in fact a true religion why is it that it can be studied so In depth and there are so many different branches of it like tafseer, hadith, fiqh, Aqeeda? Where did all this knowledge come from, why do people spend so much of time on these things? Are other religions just as in depth as Islam?
    And why do the scholars not see what we see when they study Islam? I mean a lot of scholars give lectures on Hell, do you think our fear or dislike of Hell clouds us from seeing what they see?

    I get the logical arguments against religion, the fairytale like stories, the contradictions and so on, but I can't understand why the religion is so intense and intensely studied and why these scholors don't see the truth? And again are other religions just as indepth as Islam in its teachings?


    Yes Christianity is studied in depth as much, probably more due to not accepting everything as literal. There can be errors as only a fringe believe the Bible is 100% accurate at all time.  These errors can be corrected. Granted both Islam and Christianity will not change core tenets of their doctrine but everything else is open to criticism. There is the Reformation in which new version of the Bible were created based on Aramaic rather than Greek or Latin. The Dead Sea scrolls further corrected errors in our oldest manuscripts which were made after the DSS. There is the reconstruction of the OT based on the documentary hypothesis. There is evidence from archaeology which tame some of the outrageous claim such as Solomon's massive empire. Honestly the only criticism I see from Muslims is based on sectarian divides and uncomfortable view in the present expressed in the Quran. The most I see is the dismissing of hadith but never anything in the Quran. How does one level any criticism on a text when they view the text as God's creation? One can not criticize something which they view as perfect as part of their faith.

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/

    Religion provides emotional appeal. People want their beliefs to be true in order to validate this appeal to emotions. If believers accepted the idea their religion was false or possibly false, as other religions are false in their view, this would be admitting that their faith is a placebo and nothing more. Also keep in mind many people are raised with religion which is very hard to shrug off. It becomes their way of life before many are even capable of understanding what they believe or why. It becomes part of the individual as much as the culture they are part of. Also consider many hold religious commentary and other figures as authorities even when such people are no more educated than the people they hold authority over. Believers have enable a system of authority which has various forms of education and requirements which is not standardized. Hence a pastor or cleric can claim the Earth is flat or 6k years old while other claim it is spherical or 4.5 billion years old. We have enabled people to claim authority for reading a book or set of books on one subject and we idolized them for the ability to read a book to people and talk about it.
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #7 - March 25, 2014, 11:04 AM

    Confusedagno

    Religious "scholars"/clerics have a habit of mistaking the text for the world and can have a hard time distinguishing between what's real and what's fictional/allegorical/parabolic/erroneous - this inevitably leads to a lot of verbiage, that in its turn gets the "stamp" of authority and authenticity ( to some ) which then leads to further verbiage. You've probably also noticed that religious scholars and clerics disagree about things. A lot. A very very lot. This isn't surprising - the texts that they've prioritised as authoritatively above the world can be quite ambiguous, unclear, contradictory, messy. History also has a habit of making a mockery of things.

    This also leads to a shit-ton of further verbiage of the polemical and apologetical variety, requires the "production" of scholarship ( historical, textual, linguistic etc ) to "prove" that they're correct and that their esteemed or benighted opponents are wrong,  who, as long as they haven't been suppressed or slaughtered for dogmatic reasons and for the misfortune of being less powerful, respond in kind.

    Given that Islam is also a power system in the political sense, this means that there's a lot of legal discourse. And anyone who's ever been tangentially associated with a legal system will understand that this tends to be very text and paper and procedure driven - hence more verbiage involved in drafting laws, intepreting laws in the infinite variety of human situations into which they have to be applied, procedures for applying them etc. This requires, inevitably, a lot of study.

    There's nearly 2000 years of Jewish legal writing - "halacha" - that is now mostly of historical interest except for a rump of "halachic" Jews; canon law is of little relevance outside of internal church disciplinary and administrative procedures - although it once had real relevance in the lives of people. We just have secular law instead - and this is no less voluminous in its endless output of texts that have to be studied, interpreted, applied and implemented.

    Just to give two examples, the writings of Shakespeare and Jane Austen are also the subject of intense and in depth study - and there's nothing surprising about that is there?

    In general, religion is a big element in culture ( well, it actually IS culture ) - and we're all immersed in it in one way or another.

     
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #8 - March 25, 2014, 11:38 AM

    Confusedagno

    The short and snippy anwer to the question of if X religion were true is that if that were the case we'd all agree about it without any further need to explore the matter, history be damned. Divine communication is going to be automatically comprehensible to everyone ( it's an awful lot easier than creating a universe for example ) and we'll all generally get the same gist.
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #9 - March 25, 2014, 11:44 AM

    Confusedagno, I hear this kind of thing a lot.

    Even very recently from my husband, who just last night said, "Some of the most intelligent men in the world were Muslim, and people have believed in it and didn't see the problems you think you see for a thousand and more years. So? What were they waiting for? You to come along and prove it wrong? Come on, baby."

    This kind of flawed reasoning is definitely responsible for why religions in general go unchecked due to sheer antiquity. It makes people feel safe to be complacent. They believe that, if there are problems that make their faith clearly nonsense, everyone would know these problems, and no one would subscribe to the religion. It is clearly extremely far from the truth.

    Besides which, only in more recent times have we been able to definitively prove things like the dynamics of our solar system, evolution, embryology, and all the other nice things that have been a thorn in religion's side for some time now. And by then, societies and families and countries have been built on these faulty religions. Who would expect any different outcome than the one we've had?
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #10 - March 25, 2014, 11:46 AM

    Even very recently from my husband, who just last night said, "Some of the most intelligent men in the world were Muslim, and people have believed in it and didn't see the problems you think you see for a thousand and more years. So? What were they waiting for? You to come along and prove it wrong? Come on, baby."

    Doesn't he think that's how islam started? Smiley

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #11 - March 25, 2014, 11:49 AM

    ^ He tries not to think much about it at all.  wacko
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #12 - March 25, 2014, 11:51 AM



    Religion provides emotional appeal. People want their beliefs to be true in order to validate this appeal to emotions. If believers accepted the idea their religion was false or possibly false, as other religions are false in their view, this would be admitting that their faith is a placebo and nothing more. Also keep in mind many people are raised with religion which is very hard to shrug off. It becomes their way of life before many are even capable of understanding what they believe or why. It becomes part of the individual as much as the culture they are part of. Also consider many hold religious commentary and other figures as authorities even when such people are no more educated than the people they hold authority over. Believers have enable a system of authority which has various forms of education and requirements which is not standardized. Hence a pastor or cleric can claim the Earth is flat or 6k years old while other claim it is spherical or 4.5 billion years old. We have enabled people to claim authority for reading a book or set of books on one subject and we idolized them for the ability to read a book to people and talk about it.


    Bogart, I am aware of this because I am stuck on the emotional appeal of religion right now, but my rational mind seems stronger than my emotions (which surprises me).

    Josephus, you make some good points, I guess all written scripture can be over analysed and interpreted in different ways, I guess the difference is we don't take Jane austen and Shakespear literally.

    I was just reading a study on the history of afterlife beliefs starting right from the beginning when there was actually no interest or belief in an afterlife and how this came into being. What strikes me is that their are SO many different belief systems and all claim to be the truth. But being a muslim (I think lol) I know that in Islam muslims believe that any religion that denies Mo as the last prophet, therefore denying Islam is in error. What strikes me suspicious here is that so many jews and christians lived through the time of Mo but didn't take to his message, what does that say? It's all rather suspicious. Isn't seeing believing? If ppl witnessed the 'miracles' of mo why would there b disbielvers?

    But that's going of topic here, I get your guys points, thanks Smiley, I started a degree on Islamic studies two years back and looking back at what I learnt I am know more then doubtful, Have youl heard the story of Allahs convent with Adam, where he shows adam all of his creation like little lights before they are 'placed on earth'
    And he makes his creation take an outh that Adam is there father, so on some level all humans 'KNOW' that Adam is their father, I can't believe I fell for that  Roll Eyes



    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #13 - March 25, 2014, 12:07 PM

    Bogart, I am aware of this because I am stuck on the emotional appeal of religion right now, but my rational mind seems stronger than my emotions (which surprises me).

    You realise that disproves islam right?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #14 - March 25, 2014, 12:09 PM

    ye

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #15 - March 25, 2014, 12:27 PM

    Found this on FB just now, "Islam should be studied from its sources with an open mind and willingness to change one's opinions and beliefs according to the strongest evidences.
    Studying Islam with the belief that you already know better than the teacher defeats the entire purpose of studying it"

    i don't think he was referring to changing beliefs against Islam  dance

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #16 - March 25, 2014, 03:04 PM

    Confusedagno

    It's true that we don't take Austen or Shakespeare as literal - but we also recognise that they undogmatically ( but not necessarily un-ideologically ) express complex human, social and existential truths/dilemmas/experiences in their writings - arguably they're more "truthful", and more compassionate and humane,  in their capacity to represent and critique "being human in the world" than many religious texts are. But then again there were "religious" scholars ( Philo and Augustine spring to mind ) who didn't see the wisdom or the necessity of taking their received revealed texts too literally either.
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #17 - March 25, 2014, 03:08 PM

    What about the argument that Religious people make that man can't define their own morals and God needs to do this for them, do you think religion is a good basis for outlining morals, if you don't take the text literally but see them as loose guidelines for morals in everyday life.

    I heard recently that in the UK school systems they are implementing grade ones role-playing to demonstrate Gays, I don't know to what extent this is true will try and source out the article, but my families reaction to this is that that's what happens when man makes their own rules.

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #18 - March 25, 2014, 03:13 PM

    Not all but many religious "morals" are backward and evil. Ever notice the more a society moves away from religion the better it becomes?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #19 - March 25, 2014, 03:16 PM

    interesting that isnt how religious ppl see this, I understand what you saying completely, give me some examples tho of how society becomes better.
    As religious ppl have tons of examples of how it becomes worse

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #20 - March 25, 2014, 03:19 PM

    They stop using religion for morality.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #21 - March 25, 2014, 03:29 PM

    Not all but many religious "morals" are backward and evil. Ever notice the more a society moves away from religion the better it becomes?


    A’uthu billah!

    We don’t want your western morals, Quod! What Allah and his messenger have given us is sufficient for us! Never will we trade it for your evil systems of “freedom” and “liberty.” Never will we replace the laws of our Lord with your manmade laws of secularism! These evil manmade laws which allow women and men to mix freely, destroying the fabric of our society! These manmade laws which encourage indecency, drinking, and gambling. In your country, women walk the streets with no covering and with no male guardian! In your country, young girls engage in fornication as thought it were nothing! In your country, there are establishments for drinking alcohol on almost every street corner! In your country, the evils of interest and usury have brought about the near collapse of your entire financial system, bringing the lives of millions to the brink of ruin! By Allah, we will never accept your so called morals! The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, has left us upon a clear path. Its night is just as bright and luminous as its day. None can stray from it without meeting utter destruction. But the evil of your actions have been made pleasing to you, so you see them as something good. Surely, you are the evil doers and the mischief spreaders and you don’t even perceive it. How deluded you are from the truth!

    We ask Allah to protect us from your evil, Quod, and our final supplication is that all praises belong to Allah, lord of all the worlds.

    - It ’s an entirely different way of viewing reality.  Wink
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #22 - March 25, 2014, 03:29 PM

    You know what, this probably deserves a real answer. I'm fucking tired right now, didn't sleep last night. Tomorrow, if someone hasn't said what I'd say anyway, I'll come back to it.

    But to summarise, to move away from dogma is to free your mind. It gives you the freedom to think and to speak as you see fit, to challenge and be challenged. The abrahamic scriptures are filled with moral laws that we would today view as gross human rights violations. Commandments to pillage, rape, murder, rampage and burn. Dogmatic tribalism. Divine rights to genocide.

    The god of the old testament and the quran is a sadistic monster. He is evil. The only proof you need is in the texts themselves and their real world applications. They are chains of savagery binding us to small lives of petty feuds and needless suffering.

    Once we move away from religion we question why something is, if it can change. Moving away from religion brought rights and protection to those who didn't have it. Women no longer were forced to marry their rapists or be condemned to lives of abuse with no escape. Victims are no longer blamed. Those who speak up are no longer hunted down and killed. People are no longer murdered for the crime of being born gay. The poorer, less protected and more vulnerable are no longer enslaved and have children born in chains. Those who believe differently are no longer persecuted with cries of infidel or heathen or blasphemer or witch. Almost every single advancement that has made life bearable has no bearing or is in direct contradiction to religion.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #23 - March 25, 2014, 03:32 PM

    lol
    Okay, you see I had this conversation with my uncle, and he played the you too young to see whats happening in the world card on me  finmad
    He said that man needs religion for morality, he gave an example of his own uncle, who is muslim mind you, who gambles and how he destroyed his life by doing so. I see two problems with his argument,
    1) The uncle IS muslim, he knows about GOd and his punishment and the rules of religion and he chose to act anyway against it
    2) The cause of his gambling is probably a more deep seethed problem than religion, and religious people will play the he isn't close to God card thats why he did it

    ANd about being too young to see what's happening in the world, in the past few years I have interacted with MANY people of different faiths and no faith who are all outstanding ppl, I think that religion by passes the real reason people chose to do bad things and doesn't address the real problems.

    I mean an average guy on the street is not going to be prone to killing people or raping or starting a war just coz he feels like.
     
    Am I wrong in my thinking here??? Am I too young to 'understand' these things?Huh?Huh?Huh?

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #24 - March 25, 2014, 03:38 PM

    No.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #25 - March 25, 2014, 03:41 PM

     far away hug
    thanks

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #26 - March 25, 2014, 03:43 PM

    You're welcome. Smiley

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #27 - March 25, 2014, 03:44 PM

    A’uthu billah!

    We don’t want your western morals, Quod! What Allah and his messenger have given us is sufficient for us! Never will we trade it for your evil systems of “freedom” and “liberty.” Never will we replace the laws of our Lord with your manmade laws of secularism! These evil manmade laws which allow women and men to mix freely, destroying the fabric of our society! These manmade laws which encourage indecency, drinking, and gambling. In your country, women walk the streets with no covering and with no male guardian! In your country, young girls engage in fornication as thought it were nothing! In your country, there are establishments for drinking alcohol on almost every street corner! In your country, the evils of interest and usury have brought about the near collapse of your entire financial system, bringing the lives of millions to the brink of ruin! By Allah, we will never accept your so called morals! The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, has left us upon a clear path. Its night is just as bright and luminous as its day. None can stray from it without meeting utter destruction. But the evil of your actions have been made pleasing to you, so you see them as something good. Surely, you are the evil doers and the mischief spreaders and you don’t even perceive it. How deluded you are from the truth!

    We ask Allah to protect us from your evil, Quod, and our final supplication is that all praises belong to Allah, lord of all the worlds.

    - It ’s an entirely different way of viewing reality.  Wink

    Long may it reign. Cool


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #28 - March 25, 2014, 04:17 PM

    Hello confusedagno. There are many, many religions that are intensely studied. You just need the time to look at them. Buddhism is one example. Catholicism is another. Judaism is another. Secondly, the time people spent studying a religion has no bearing on its truth.

    To me, it seems as if your mind already knows the problem within Islam but latches on to it because you are frightened by the possibility of Hell, perhaps?
  • Forgive my ignorance
     Reply #29 - March 25, 2014, 04:20 PM

    Hell, yes, also I never thot I would be in this place where I completely lose my faith, but I can no longer look at it the same way and that scares me, I feel like I'm going to be disappointing my family yet again (my divorce being the first disappointment)

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
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