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Theme Changer

 Topic: Lowest heaven/sky

 (Read 2473 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Lowest heaven/sky
     OP - March 25, 2014, 05:32 PM
    I lean on your help on this one. What's the meaning of lowest heaven in Quran/Islam.
    If lowest heaven is the very near heaven, then the teaching of stars in the lowest heaven being missiles against jinns is even more juicy for skeptics.
    I couldn't find much about the lowest heaven, maybe because it's a taboo for muslims because of it's scientific inaccuracy. Some muslims claim it's the universe. That was the only explanation that I could find for the meaning of lowest heaven. Does it mean universe, can it mean universe, does it fit universe?
    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Lowest heaven/sky
     Reply #1 - March 25, 2014, 05:39 PM
    Either sky or outer orbit, though I think the sky is a barrier between earth and heaven? Satellites and the international space station are currently in the lower heavens according to islamic scripture.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Lowest heaven/sky
     Reply #2 - March 25, 2014, 05:53 PM
    Nobody knows what the lowest heavens means. Since we're in a "quran talks about science" state of the ummah right now, a lot of Muslims have tried to argue that the "seven heaven" refer to the atmosphere and its layers. But the lowest heaven is referring to allah descending to answer our dua' Roll Eyes Anyway, read Ex-Salafys blog "Irrational Islam", he has some great material what orthodox Islamic texts say about it. And then you can start to get a grip of how idiotic Islamic theology really is Smiley
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Lowest heaven/sky
     Reply #3 - March 25, 2014, 06:37 PM
    I wrote abou this a while back.

    Quote from: happymurtad on May 07, 2013, 02:07 AM
    This argument simply does not hold water when we consider how the seven heavens are discussed in the quran.

    Surah Nuh:

    15. See you not how Allah has created seven heavens, one above the other? 16. And he has made the moon a light in THEM and has made the sun a lamp?

    He said the moon and the sun (which are practically equals when you think about it--sarcasm) are lights and lamps in the (plural) seven heavens. So either the Qur'an is asserting (as it seems to be doing) that the sun and the moon traverse all seven heavens or there is no need to single out the moon as a "light" in the universe. It's not. Nor is the sun much of a lamp when you compare it to the other stars in the "heavens." In fact, if the universe is indeed the first heaven, then the sun is extremely insignificant therein, and the moon is practically invisible.



  • Lowest heaven/sky
     Reply #4 - March 25, 2014, 07:03 PM
    A god would not say space is 'above' the sky, because it would know that space in fact extends in all directions. There is no 'up' in space.

    Someone who thought the earth was flat would say it, though.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Lowest heaven/sky
     Reply #5 - March 25, 2014, 07:18 PM
    Also, if you are interested in taking ahadith into consideration, look at this one:
    Quote
    It is narrated from Abbas bin Abdul-Muttalib (May Allah be pleased with him) that Allah's Messenger (May the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said:
       
    "Do you know how much the distance between earth and heaven is?" We said, "Allah and His Messenger know better." Then he (May the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said, "The distance between them is 500 years, and the distance between one heaven to the next is 500 years, and the dimension of each heaven will
    take 500 years to travel, and there is a sea between the seventh heaven and the Throne which has between its lowest and highest ends the distance like that between the heavens and the earth (i.e. 500 years). And Allah the Most Exalted is above that and nothing is secret from Him of the deeds of Bani Adam (humankind)."
    [Reported by Abu Dawud and others.]


    So, this hadith is laughably claiming that there are “500 years” between each heaven. Now, it is generally understood that when a hadith uses a time frame to relate a distance, it is referring to the amount of distance a rider (either on camel or horseback) could cover in that time frame. As such, we can conclude that Mo thought that there are 500 camel-years between each heaven. An impressive distance for an illiterate Bedouin audience to grasp, I’m sure, but absurd when you think of the distances that exist in space.

    Our own Milky Way galaxy, which is just one of the many, many billions of galaxies in our observable universe, is  over 100,000 light-years in diameter. So, even if we were to be extremely generous and say that somehow, Mo was referring to light-years in the aforementioned hadith, it would put the throne of Allah approximately 3,500 light-years away, within the same cluster of gas and stars that make up our arm of the galaxy.

    The fact of the matter is that the Qur’an and Hadith always and invariably describe the universe from the perspective of an ignorant desert observer. There is never anything in the Qur’an or hadith that suggests knowledge of the universe beyond the capacity of a 7th century adult rehearsing the myths, legends, and flawed conclusions of his time. 
  • Lowest heaven/sky
     Reply #6 - March 25, 2014, 09:43 PM
    Thanks happymurtad. If blessings exist, you are major example of blessing.
    Always giving good insight. Everyone else too, I haven't forgotten thee.
    Is that hadith how authentic?
    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Lowest heaven/sky
     Reply #7 - March 25, 2014, 09:44 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on March 25, 2014, 07:03 PM
    A god would not say space is 'above' the sky, because it would know that space in fact extends in all directions. There is no 'up' in space.

    Someone who thought the earth was flat would say it, though.

    Or someone who was using the surface of the earth as a frame of reference.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Lowest heaven/sky
     Reply #8 - March 26, 2014, 01:18 PM
    But now I'm wondering that since there's Sahih Hadith claiming that Allah descends to lowest heaven, universe being the meaning of lowest heaven might not be so stupid after all.
    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Lowest heaven/sky
     Reply #9 - March 26, 2014, 01:42 PM
    Good hadith to bring up. It says Allah descends to the lowest heaven in the “last third of the night.”

    Think about that for a moment. When is the “last third of the night”? It is always the last third of the night somewhere, right? It never stops being the last third of the night, does it? Right now as I write this, it is the last third of the night in Hawaii. Later on today, it’ll be the last third of the night in India. When I’m getting ready for bed here in the States, it’ll be the last third of the night in Eastern Europe.

    So is Allah always there, chilling, hovering over the “lowest heaven” 24/7 as the Earth spins? Or does this point to profound ignorance on the part of the prophet? It sounds like he had no idea that the Earth spins on its axis, making day and night perpetual realities.

    When we couple this with the silliness of the sun prostrating under Allah’s throne, the seven heavens, etc, we are left with little alternative but to accept that Muhammad envisioned a “low” earth with seven heavens stacked above it, the sun the moon, and the rest of the celestial bodies rising and setting around it, and the throne of Allah encompassing it all from above. “And his throne doth extend over the heavens and the Earth and the preservation of them both tires him not.” 2:225    

    If we are saying that the “heavens” are really the entire universe, why even bother mentioning the Earth?
  • Lowest heaven/sky
     Reply #10 - March 26, 2014, 01:48 PM
    NEVER thougth about that HM!! Mind BLOWN!!
    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Lowest heaven/sky
     Reply #11 - March 26, 2014, 01:55 PM
    Although muslims will respond to this that time is just a concept for man, their is no concept of time in the heavens
    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Lowest heaven/sky
     Reply #12 - March 26, 2014, 02:07 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on March 26, 2014, 01:42 PM
    Good hadith to bring up. It says Allah descends to the lowest heaven in the “last third of the night.”

    Think about that for a moment. When is the “last third of the night”? It is always the last third of the night somewhere, right? It never stops being the last third of the night, does it? Right now as I write this, it is the last third of the night in Hawaii. Later on today, it’ll be the last third of the night in India. When I’m getting ready for bed here in the States, it’ll be the last third of the night in Eastern Europe.

    So is Allah always there, chilling, hovering over the “lowest heaven” 24/7 as the Earth spins? Or does this point to profound ignorance on the part of the prophet? It sounds like he had no idea that the Earth spins on its axis, making day and night perpetual realities.

    When we couple this with the silliness of the sun prostrating under Allah’s throne, the seven heavens, etc, we are left with little alternative but to accept that Muhammad envisioned a “low” earth with seven heavens stacked above it, the sun the moon, and the rest of the celestial bodies rising and setting around it, and the throne of Allah encompassing it all from above. “And his throne doth extend over the heavens and the Earth and the preservation of them both tires him not.” 2:225    

    If we are saying that the “heavens” are really the entire universe, why even bother mentioning the Earth?



    You are a genius. Don't get too proud of it though.
    You might as well be Sir Murtad instead of Mr. Murtad.
    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Lowest heaven/sky
     Reply #13 - March 26, 2014, 02:15 PM
    Aww shucks.  thnkyu
  • Re: Lowest heaven/sky
     Reply #14 - March 26, 2014, 02:37 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on March 26, 2014, 01:42 PM
    Good hadith to bring up. It says Allah descends to the lowest heaven in the “last third of the night.”

    Think about that for a moment. When is the “last third of the night”? It is always the last third of the night somewhere, right? It never stops being the last third of the night, does it? Right now as I write this, it is the last third of the night in Hawaii. Later on today, it’ll be the last third of the night in India. When I’m getting ready for bed here in the States, it’ll be the last third of the night in Eastern Europe.

    So is Allah always there, chilling, hovering over the “lowest heaven” 24/7 as the Earth spins? Or does this point to profound ignorance on the part of the prophet? It sounds like he had no idea that the Earth spins on its axis, making day and night perpetual realities.

    When we couple this with the silliness of the sun prostrating under Allah’s throne, the seven heavens, etc, we are left with little alternative but to accept that Muhammad envisioned a “low” earth with seven heavens stacked above it, the sun the moon, and the rest of the celestial bodies rising and setting around it, and the throne of Allah encompassing it all from above. “And his throne doth extend over the heavens and the Earth and the preservation of them both tires him not.” 2:225    

    If we are saying that the “heavens” are really the entire universe, why even bother mentioning the Earth?



    I dunno. the mental image of the divine wurlitzer pepetually chasing the night is rather endearing.
  • Lowest heaven/sky
     Reply #15 - March 26, 2014, 06:02 PM
    Isn't it telling how easily religion falls apart.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Lowest heaven/sky
     Reply #16 - March 26, 2014, 06:12 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on March 26, 2014, 01:42 PM
    When we couple this with the silliness of the sun prostrating under Allah’s throne, the seven heavens, etc, we are left with little alternative but to accept that Muhammad envisioned a “low” earth with seven heavens stacked above it, the sun the moon, and the rest of the celestial bodies rising and setting around it, and the throne of Allah encompassing it all from above. “And his throne doth extend over the heavens and the Earth and the preservation of them both tires him not.” 2:225    

    If we are saying that the “heavens” are really the entire universe, why even bother mentioning the Earth?



    (That's not 2:225 by the way, it's 2:255.)
    Maybe because earth is kinda like the center of universe in it's "authority" (not in position) and thus earth gets special mention. Kinda like someone might say: "God bless USA and the whole world."
    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Lowest heaven/sky
     Reply #17 - March 26, 2014, 06:31 PM
    Yeah but no one except Americans takes that seriously.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Lowest heaven/sky
     Reply #18 - March 26, 2014, 06:33 PM
    Why shoudd Mmmurricans cuurrr about nonn-Mmmurriccanss' opinnionnnn?
    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
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