How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?

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How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
Reply #150 - April 08, 2014, 03:57 AM

Obviously, I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here, but the point remains. There isn't anything inherently wrong about any particular clothing when worn by anyone of any age.

What's wrong is the social milieu which places emphasis on looking a certain way, or those that would abuse someone for looking that way.

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Reply #151 - April 08, 2014, 04:02 AM

Quote from: asbie on April 08, 2014, 03:54 AM
From source: "Self-motivated sexual exploration, on the other hand, is not sexualization by our definition, nor is age-appropriate exposure to information about sexuality."

True, but I think perhaps you read this sentence too quickly or without realizing the language the article was using to define their terms? Larger context:

Quote
There are several components to sexualization, and these set it apart from healthy sexuality. Sexualization occurs when
a person’s value comes only from his or her sexual appeal or behavior, to the exclusion of other characteristics; a person is held to a standard that equates physical attractiveness (narrowly defined) with being sexy; a person is sexually objectified — that is, made into a thing for others’ sexual use, rather than seen as a person with the capacity for independent action and decision making; and/or sexuality is inappropriately imposed upon a person.
All four conditions need not be present; any one is an indication of sexualization. The fourth condition (the inappropriate imposition of sexuality) is especially relevant to children. Anyone (girls, boys, men, women) can be sexualized. But when children are imbued with adult sexuality, it is often imposed upon them rather than chosen by them. Self-motivated sexual exploration, on the other hand, is not sexualization by our definition, nor is age-appropriate exposure to information about sexuality.

The article makes a distinction between "sexualization" and sexuality/sexual exploration. It says it right there in the sentence you quoted, in fact, that sexual exploration is not their definition of "sexualization." What is their definition of sexualization loops right back up to the criteria above, and also to the paragraph that I quoted initially which supported precisely what I've been saying.

But basically they're saying that sexual drive in a person (even a child) is not indicative of sexualization, and the voluntary exploration of one's sex and sexuality is also, of course, not sexualization, in that one sentence.
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Reply #152 - April 08, 2014, 04:07 AM

Quote from: asbie on April 08, 2014, 03:57 AM
Obviously, I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here, but the point remains. There isn't anything inherently wrong about any particular clothing when worn by anyone of any age.

What's wrong is the social milieu which places emphasis on looking a certain way, or those that would abuse someone for looking that way.

I get what you're saying, and you're not wrong if it could exist in a vacuum, but we have to give credit for the psychology at play here.

If a girl really just thought that the cleavage effect of her bikini top was just the same kind of pretty as her favorite color bikini top, then that's not a problem (although note that I wasn't just pulling the general societal ills of it for the moment out of nowhere--they addressed the victimization prospect towards the end). But, unfortunately, that usually isn't why children are doing that. It usually isn't why anyone is adhering to standards of beauty or sexual appeal. And even if the intention is gone, a child finding themselves in provocative clothing can very often find themselves, whether knowingly or unknowingly, facing psychological consequences of early sexualization.
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Reply #153 - April 08, 2014, 04:26 AM

When you allude to abuse, you're once again mixing two concepts, which are the exploitation of children by others for whatever reason, and the actual appropriateness of certain types of clothing for those children.

The more relevant argument made by the article refers to the impact of sexualization on children due to inappropriate clothing and beauty standards. However, it also gives the sources of this sexualization. It is imposed by society in the form of standards of beauty and imposed on them by choices made by adults for them about the clothing they wear.

In the absence of these forces, one would simply be assuming that a child's choice of clothing would be a symptom of sexualization.

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Reply #154 - April 08, 2014, 04:37 AM

Quote from: asbie on April 08, 2014, 04:26 AM
When you allude to abuse, you're once again mixing two concepts, which are the exploitation of children by others for whatever reason, and the actual appropriateness of certain types of clothing for those children.

The more relevant argument made by the article refers to the impact of sexualization on children due to inappropriate clothing and beauty standards. However, it also gives the sources of this sexualization. It is imposed by society in the form of standards of beauty and imposed on them by choices made by adults for them about the clothing they wear.

In the absence of these forces, one would simply be assuming that a child's choice of clothing would be a symptom of sexualization.

I still get what you're saying. If we were in a perfect world, this wouldn't be an issue and anyone could wear basically whatever they wanted, or nothing at all, whatever floats their boat.

The problem I have with what I assume is essentially a correlation but not causation argument that you're making is that the devil is in the details. Women as adults are also susceptible, clearly, to this problems, and some suffer greatly for it. But, in general, they are at a far greater level of not only sexual and mental maturity, but also in their greater understanding of themselves and the world they live in and its consequences. A child, however, is exceptionally vulnerable to outside influences, their brains are not at all fully developed, and their coping mechanisms and sense of self has not even grown close to that of the average adult. These are all important things that eventually serve to distance the actual act of, say, wearing provocative clothing with the psychological issues.

In an adult woman with these issues, it would be easy to say that there is a self-esteem issue that needs to be addressed and that, yes, perhaps certain behaviors she has (trying to obtain an ideal beauty standard) is a symptom of that and not the other way around. In a child, however, that is likely not the case--the concept of not being sexy enough or pretty enough is often quite foreign until something makes them acutely aware of these issues, such as being introduced to products like clothing designed to "improve" their physical appearance.
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Reply #155 - July 14, 2014, 12:00 PM

You just don't constrain how people dress. As a state, you just shouldn't control things you don't have to. The same way it's wrong for Afghans and Saudi's to force women to wear hijab if they go out, it would be wrong for Western countries to ban hijabs. You don't believe in Islam, you think it's ridiculous & wrong etc. But that's your opinion, & you shouldn't stop people from believing and wearing what they want to. Just like we as ex-muslims don't want to be judged and ostracised for our lack of beliefs or apostasy.

What you *do* do is make it wrong to force someone to wear/not wear something.

As for nudity & 'trashy' looks...one person's trashy is another's classy. It's not for you to judge whether something's appropriate or not. Logically, being nude isn't technically wrong. But the fact of the matter is, if someone walked around nude now society would be horrified & feel like they're being forced to see something they don't want to. Societal norms atm don't make nudity okay in public, in fact flashing is against the law isn't it? Indecent exposure, forcing someone to see your dick is a violation of consent. That is where the line is drawn...but if someone wants to walk around in a dress made of bacon, that is their prerogative. Just as someone who wants to walk around with a hijab on is perfectly within their rights to do so.

- & it's not oppressive to wear the hihab by choice, only if it's by force. It's like someone who wears mini skirts pointing at someone wearing a long skirt & saying "she's oppressed!" No she's not, not unless someone's forcing her to cover her legs.
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Reply #156 - July 14, 2014, 02:56 PM

Yours-Truly summed it up perfectly.

on another (almost unrelated) note, in terms of sexualizing women for what they wear, which I think is ridiculous in all circumstances, I think if a girl is "too young" to be wearing a mini-skirt/bikini/crop top etc, then she's too young to be sexualized. I don't really think there's an "age" to be sexualized but putting these pressures on younger girls can have consequences as they grow up. And I don't see why showing skin is deemed as "inappropriate". Of course, full nudity in public is a different matter

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Reply #157 - September 14, 2014, 10:28 PM

Currently it's very hot, and the last few months have been incredibly hot. Most of the girls/women walking around are wearing crop/bikini tops, and some are very young. At no point whatsoever did I think it was sexualising, it was just what you're more likely to wear in hot weather. A lot of men are walking around in shorts and with a very thin/light top or no top at all. It's hot.

If I saw a woman walking around in a bikini in the middle of winter with snow and ice everywhere I'd probably look twice, though that would be more surprise/puzzlement. Honestly it bothers me more that some people look at someone as sexualizing themselves simply by wearing normal clothes. Actual sexy/slutty outfits are usually to be found in nightclubs, comicons, Halloween outfits and pornos.

I just typed crop top into google images.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=crop+top&biw=1024&bih=673&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=6RAWVM7cOsbOaOzXAg&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ

99% of the images aren't what I would consider sexualising, just summer wear.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #158 - September 15, 2014, 01:48 AM

I don't like the idea of women and men going around naked as it would be unhygienic in public places, but all other clothes are fine by me. Can't society grow up and treat people based on their actions rather than their dress sense, however lousy it may be? And, oh boy, my dress sense sure is lousy... I get told that I'm the spitting image of Sporty Spice during the 90s. I don't have a feminine bone in my body...

The misspelling in my name is intentional, because I'm an idiot and I can't spell properly. But I'd probably also say that even if it was a mistake. Does that clear things up?
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Reply #159 - September 15, 2014, 01:59 AM

Why would being naked be unhygienic?

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #160 - September 15, 2014, 02:39 AM

I at least know that I wouldn't be sitting on a park bench/train seat/bar stool with nothing on, especially not if god knows whose junk was possibly there just before.

P.S. Woah, what were we even talking about here, asbie? I skimmed it and I just see me using rly srs words. I hope I wasn't off-putting back then, you know I adore you.
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Reply #161 - September 15, 2014, 04:27 AM

Much love to you too lua.

Haha, I don't even know. Feel like half the fun was the challenge of arguing against you, after seeing how you handled certain kinds of lousy/unscientific ideas. Not that I don't believe what I wrote. I still think that there shouldn't be anything inherently wrong about human bodies such that breaking its censorship constitutes a social "violation".

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Reply #162 - September 15, 2014, 08:07 AM

Huh! what is going on here? heading says "How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?" and you guys
Quote
asbie: human bodies...... censorship ........."violation".

lua: wouldn't be sitting on a park bench/train seat/bar stool with nothing on,

Quod Sum Eris: being naked

Villiage_Idiot: women and men going around naked ...... I don't have a feminine bone in my body...

XXXX: You just don't constrain how people dress.

are talking about something too naked it is nakedly obvious ., why? let me read you guys Quran and a add a tube to it..

Quote
O children of Adam, we have provided you with garments to cover your bodies, as well as for luxury. But the best garment is the garment of righteousness. These are some of God's signs, that they may take heed. (7:26)

......tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests,.........(24:30-31)

O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall lengthen their garments......... (33:59)

Are any of your boy friends/girl friends/husbands.wives Prophets??

If not dress what you like appropriate to the occasion and Dance...Dance..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_mUgxX2I20

Dance......Dance away with freedom.. but make sure use that simple golden rule not to step on other people's freedom..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #163 - September 15, 2014, 08:50 AM

Not sure if the following argument makes sense.

The hijab is about modesty - this is to do with sexualisation.

So should primary school and pre teenage girls wear hijab? What do they have to be concerned with modesty for?

Is wearing hijab in pre teens actually a form of sexualisation?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

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Reply #164 - September 15, 2014, 09:20 AM

Quote from: moi on September 15, 2014, 08:50 AM
Is wearing hijab in pre teens actually a form of sexualisation?

A point that has been made on here many times before, surely.
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Reply #165 - September 15, 2014, 12:00 PM

Has it? If so, it should be treated very seriously in schools and reported to the authorities as a form of grooming.

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #166 - September 15, 2014, 08:26 PM

I've made that point before moi.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #167 - September 15, 2014, 08:52 PM

I think tons of people did. Almost everyone on this thread IIRC. At least the part about the hijab/"modest" clothing being sexualizing.
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Reply #168 - September 15, 2014, 09:01 PM

It is reverse sexualisation (burkas, hijabs, niqabs).
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Reply #169 - September 15, 2014, 09:09 PM

Quote from: asbie on September 15, 2014, 04:27 AM
Haha, I don't even know. Feel like half the fun was the challenge of arguing against you, after seeing how you handled certain kinds of lousy/unscientific ideas.

Toona has advised me to take more care with how I argue on here so as to not come off as mean. As long as I didn't sound mean to you!

As for the rest, yeah, that'd be nice if it never had strings attached on account of jerks. But as you know, I'm already planning my retreat into virtual reality, so I'm not too hung up over it, myself. Oculus rift forever.
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Reply #170 - September 15, 2014, 09:37 PM

Quote from: lua on September 15, 2014, 08:52 PM
I think tons of people did. Almost everyone on this thread IIRC. At least the part about the hijab/"modest" clothing being sexualizing.

Sorry I am being particularly thick! Just reread thread and I can't see the point I am making! And what is reverse sexualisation?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #171 - September 15, 2014, 10:00 PM

Like it sexualises the female body by actively trying to desexualise it by covering it. In effect if any 'not allowed' part of the body is seen it automatically becomes 'meat' and 'sexy'.
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Reply #172 - September 15, 2014, 10:28 PM

Quote
Not sure if the following argument makes sense.

The hijab is about modesty - this is to do with sexualisation.

So should primary school and pre teenage girls wear hijab? What do they have to be concerned with modesty for?

Is wearing hijab in pre teens actually a form of sexualisation?

I was just wondering if a similar argument could be made about dressing pre-teen girls in pink?

Why is it necessary for a child's gender to be highlighted?

Or is that taking things too far to criticize the color pink?

The misspelling in my name is intentional, because I'm an idiot and I can't spell properly. But I'd probably also say that even if it was a mistake. Does that clear things up?
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Reply #173 - September 15, 2014, 11:02 PM

Not necessarily village-idiot.
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Reply #174 - September 15, 2014, 11:19 PM

Quote
Not necessarily village-idiot.

Not necessarily that pink sexualizes pre-teen girls, or not necessarily that it's too extreme to consider so?

The misspelling in my name is intentional, because I'm an idiot and I can't spell properly. But I'd probably also say that even if it was a mistake. Does that clear things up?
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Reply #175 - September 15, 2014, 11:19 PM

Pink wasn't always seen as specific for girls.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #176 - September 15, 2014, 11:28 PM

Quote from: Villiage_Idiot on September 15, 2014, 11:19 PM
Not necessarily that pink sexualizes pre-teen girls, or not necessarily that it's too extreme to consider so?

Either also given the current cultural set up as mentioned by Quod. Pink used to be for boys, blue for girls.
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Reply #177 - September 15, 2014, 11:31 PM

Quote from: lua on September 15, 2014, 09:09 PM
Toona has advised me to take more care with how I argue on here so as to not come off as mean. As long as I didn't sound mean to you!

You're not mean. Its hard to even make an argument that you come across that way.

Quote from: lua on September 15, 2014, 09:09 PM
As for the rest, yeah, that'd be nice if it never had strings attached on account of jerks. But as you know, I'm already planning my retreat into virtual reality, so I'm not too hung up over it, myself. Oculus rift forever.

Haha, yeah. Reality blows innit.

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Reply #178 - September 15, 2014, 11:32 PM

Quote
Pink wasn't always seen as specific for girls.

It probably wasn't, but it is now. I know there's that salmon color that many men wear these days, but I was thinking more about the Barbie pink color, or those girls t-shirts with glitter butterflies all over them.

Why is it necessary to dress a child (girl or boy) in anything but plain, practical clothes? I can see why little boys might want to don a superhero costume or wear camo cargo pants or other stuff, because those things are assoiated with being powerful (heck, I had a power rangers suit as a kid), but do little girls ever choose to wear pink?

Anyway, I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree, it's just a random thought that popped into my head when I saw Moi's comment.

The misspelling in my name is intentional, because I'm an idiot and I can't spell properly. But I'd probably also say that even if it was a mistake. Does that clear things up?
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Reply #179 - September 15, 2014, 11:39 PM

Asbie, glad you think so...Maybe more aggressive or condescending than mean, and I have gotten that remark from people I've argued with before on here, so I guess it couldn't hurt to be more careful just in case!

Re the pink thing, I don't believe that quite has as many harmful effects as the hijab at a young age and the like. I mean, it'll influence kids, sure. Everything does, they're like sponges. But it's hard to compare them beyond that, I think.
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