Maajid Nawaz and Asifa Lahore

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OP - April 06, 2014, 02:25 PM

This is the video from the free speech show that was postponed before.

I think Maajid Nawaz did an excellent job of debunking the homophobic muslimah's nonsense.

What do you guys think of it ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJI7D5hU-mU

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Reply #1 - April 06, 2014, 03:17 PM

Maajid did well!

BTW, the aggressive Muslim, Abdullah al-Andalusi, is debating theRationalizer today. Should be a good discussion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58owyno-XkE

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Reply #2 - April 06, 2014, 03:28 PM

Just watched it, and two things stood out for me personally. The first one was when Majid was compared with Usama bin Ladin because they both were "modernist". This just shows that the imam (or whatever he was) does not know much of his religions history and political/religious development. It's pathetic. Just because something is "mainstream" does not make it OK. Just fifty years ago, it was "mainstream" to beat your wife here in Sweden before they finally outlawed it. But maybe that's a bad example since "mainstream" Islam actually allows wife-beating

Secondly, was the Muslim lady's silly reaction "oooohh, cooome onnnn" when Majid confronted her with the fact that she herself "pick-and-chooses" what interpretation she likes in regards to not covering in accordance with Islamic principles and talking with men, why then can't she accept and respect gay Muslims to do the same? Why wouldn't that be the same?

Maybe these two examples were not the most interesting, but I think they say a lot about the mindset of a lot of Muslims in both Britain and elsewhere. All in all, Majid did a great job.

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Reply #3 - April 06, 2014, 03:35 PM

I sort of have to agree with the Muslim man and woman on a fundamental point; that there can only be one "true" interpretation of Islam. To say multiple interpretations are equally valid is logically inconsistent.

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Reply #4 - April 06, 2014, 03:39 PM

And which interpretation might that be?
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Reply #5 - April 06, 2014, 03:43 PM

Yeah, but you assume that there is one "true" Islam in the first place. There isn't. Someone who has gone into studying the religion becomes gruesomely aware that even in matters of basic theology, things aren't so clear cut as certain shuyookh want them to seem. I do agree that there is one "Islam", and that Islam is the quran and the corpora of hadeeth. But depending on what sect you identify yourself with, that corpora of hadeeth varies. And even if you take the same corpora, there are different opinions and interpretations of the texts. That's why you can have 20 different interpretations on the most simplest ahkaam concerning tahara or salah. Or you have book after book on different interpretations whether or not hell is eternal, what does 'arsh and kursiy mean, does allah really have a hand and what is that hand etc etc etc.

All this shows that there is no "true" Islam, because Islam is man-made and has no divine origin. Had it had a divine origin, there had been one "true" Islam, with one "true" interpretation being clear cut. Problem is, there isn't. And thus, there have never been, and will never be, one "true" interpretation of Islam.

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Reply #6 - April 06, 2014, 03:46 PM

Quote from: captndisguise on April 06, 2014, 03:35 PM
I sort of have to agree with the Muslim man and woman on a fundamental point; that there can only be one "true" interpretation of Islam. To say multiple interpretations are equally valid is logically inconsistent.

Literally the first thing I did here at CEMB after introducing myself was saying something like that and Cornflower and Three gave me a good talking to and showed me how hard that is to really define. Or, more accurately, how hard it is to reject "false" interpretations.
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Reply #7 - April 06, 2014, 03:55 PM

Putting on my pretentious glasses ; There is a difference between ontology and epistemology

As a principle of logic, there can only exist one "true" interpretation of Islam; now how to know which interpretation that might be is a different issue.

My point was that, for example, LGBT individuals in Muslim society should leave the religion rather than thinking it can all be interpreted away. I'd say the same about such individuals who have tried to reform Christianity. The Islamic texts are pretty clear on their stance on homosexuals. The correct method then should be to attack/refute the underlying ideology RATHER than merely trying to submit to the same ideology while cherry-picking or pretending it is something different.

Such attempts can only, at best, have temporary success. When people return to the Scriptures, everything they fought for would be lost.

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Reply #8 - April 06, 2014, 03:59 PM

Many contemporary apologist will claim that the Quran is meant for open interpretation, and that it was meant to evolve with time and culture, but how can anyone create a modern twist on "cut off the hands of thieves" " reprimand (beat) your wife" "take what your right hand posesses (sex slaves)" This way of thinking may have been considered truth at the time but it belongs where it originated, in the past.. You can pick "truth" morals, ethics out of any piece of literature, doesnt have to be a holy book.
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Reply #9 - April 06, 2014, 04:01 PM

It's a common misconception to have. It is one that I certainly had when I was a Muslim and one that prevented me from reinterpreting Islam to match my own intellectual and philosophical growth.

The things is, subscribing to the idea of a "true" Islam is playing directly into the hands of the sects that want their narrow interpretation of the religion to be the only interpretation. The fact of the matter is that Muslims have never all unanimously agreed on a single interpretation of Muhammad's words. This is a huge part of the reason why, immediately after he died, the community spiraled into utter chaos. Zakat, the third pillar of "mainstream" Islam, was viewed by some who identified as Muslim as no longer being valid. The question of succession, the role of the Khalifah, the nature of the Qur'an, the permissibly of logic and deduction, the roles of sin and fate, the definitions of iman, and kufr...all of these issues and many more were fiercely debated. What survives today is simply what has survived, not what was necessarily "true."

I have evolved on this issue since I first left Islam. I now think that we do ourselves no favors by insisting that the literalists have their way in monopolizing the faith. There are today those who accept the term Muslim yet reject the ideas of Jannah, Jahannam, creationism, and a God overly interested in the affairs of men. As disingenuous as this may come across to those of us familiar with a very different brand of Islam, it is necessary for the internal development of the religion and its adherents.
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Reply #10 - April 06, 2014, 04:02 PM

Sorry, don't agree captndisguise, because "explaining" away has worked just fine for a lot of Christians and their beliefs. Religion isn't rational, it isn't science, it isn't a clear cut ideology. In the Islamic texts themselves, you find that there were different interpretations during Mo's time and his companions. The fact that the plethora of varieties of interpretations and methodologies have just grown over 1400 years just makes the potential for Islam (and Muslims) go through the same type of "reform" as Christianity and Christians have in a lot of parts of the world a lot bigger. Some people still have the need to believe in a god and follow a religion even though they don't agree with everything. I don't have a problem with this, if they want to cling on to allah and Mo while being gay, then that is fine with me. It's the exact same thing as that "righteous" Muslimah in the audience does, just that she "explained away" the need to cover up her body "properly" and staying at home not sitting in a mixed gathering talking to men.

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Reply #11 - April 06, 2014, 04:08 PM

Quote from: happymurtad on April 06, 2014, 04:01 PM
The fact of the matter is that Muslims have never all unanimously agreed on a single interpretation of Muhammad's words. This is a huge part of the reason why, immediately after he died, the community spiraled into utter Chaos. Zakat, the third pillar of "mainstream" Islam, was viewed by some who identified as Muslim as no longer being valid. The question of succession, the role of the Khalifah, the nature of the Qur'an, the permissibly of logic and deduction, the roles of sin and fate, the definitions of Iman, and kufr...all of these issues and many more were fiercely debated. What survives today is simply what has survived, not what was necessarily "true."

I actually tried to discuss this with my ex trying to show that there has never been one true Islam, not even during his "golden perfect age". I was bold enough to say that those who were fought during the ridda wars were not apostates which subsequently made me break the taboo by ridiculing Islam and the hadiths.

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Reply #12 - April 06, 2014, 04:10 PM

the difficulty is telling when liberal interpreters are being genuine, or are just making dawah propaganda, I find

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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Reply #13 - April 06, 2014, 04:12 PM

Why do you think it matters?

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Reply #14 - April 06, 2014, 04:12 PM

for example on apostasy I get the sense that so often the repudiations from some Muslims are not serious engagements with the issues, so much as a PR exercise for Islam.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Reply #15 - April 06, 2014, 04:15 PM

You mean that don't do it because they genuinely reject it, but because they want non-Muslims will be more inclined towards Islam, or people eventually "leaving Islam alone" not criticizing it?

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Reply #16 - April 06, 2014, 04:20 PM

Quote from: Cornflower on April 06, 2014, 04:08 PM
I actually tried to discuss this with my ex trying to show that there has never been one true Islam, not even during his "golden perfect age". I was bold enough to say that those who were fought during the ridda wars were not apostates which subsequently made me break the taboo by ridiculing Islam and the hadiths.

There were way too many groups and ideas floating around to even begin to argue that there has ever been a single "true" interpretation. You had the Khawarij who had their own distinct views on sin and redemption. You had the Mu'tazila who emerged later, introducing elements of logic and philosophy. You had the Shia who, when you think about it, make some compelling arguments in relation to the events surrounding the murder of Muhammad's family and the rule of Banu Umayyah. You had the Thaahiriyyah, the Maa Turidiyyah, the A'shariyyah, and many, many more schools of thought, not to mention the differences between the four "mainstream" schools of thought.

Islam is not and never has been one thing. It is an umbrella term. A loose collection of ideas based on the Qur'an and Muhammad's life, words and deeds. It's not set in stone. It's not the property of a single group or a single state. And most importantly, it is not divine. It is a human product. Like all human products, it necessarily changes and adapts with time.
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Reply #17 - April 06, 2014, 04:23 PM

Have you not encountered this? In the realm of personal freedoms for example, its not hard for, say a Muslim woman to argue that Islam 'allows' her to do X Y or Z, contrary to what misogynistic men say. That's pretty straight forward. On matters like apostasy, I've come across people whose positioning says more or less 'Islam has no problem with apostasy, Exmuslims are liars and troublemakers, no compulsion in religion, Islam is so free and amazing and awesome, therefore if anyone says Islam has a scriptural and traditional and practical problem with apostasy, is an Islamophobe etc etc etc' - that's the kind of issue I've come across in the past.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Reply #18 - April 06, 2014, 04:32 PM

Ok, I get you. But I see a difference between honest attempts to re-interpret the religious scriptures by admitting that a certain opinion or interpretation is obsolete and should be rejected, and then the fake-dawaganda apologists who try to convince everyone that Islam has been "misunderstood" for 1400 years. It's not the same. This is why I hate Muslim feminists who try and convince everyone how feminist the Islamic scriptures are. But I have respect and give my full support for Muslim women who actually admits that there are problems with the Islamic texts, but that it is time to move on. The problem is once again that different groups try to convince other that their particular Islam is the "true" and "right" one. In that regards, there is no difference between these types of "liberal" groups and conservative Islamists/fundamentalists.

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Reply #19 - April 06, 2014, 04:42 PM

the key is as you say the honesty of intent of the person. Which can be difficult to gauge. I've found that there are dawah-gandists who use the pretence and rhetoric of reform and enlightenment to just do the opposite.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Reply #20 - April 06, 2014, 07:47 PM

Quote
the key is as you say the honesty of intent of the person. Which can be difficult to gauge.

I generally use this to judge whether it is honest intent or just dawahganda excuses.

When Maajid Nawaz says stuff like "It's ok to be muslim and gay" he comes across as genuine because he is actively speaking out for freedom of speech, and the rights of women, LGBT and apostates.

When DawahMan and Hamza Tzortzis say stuff like "freedom of speech" is allowed in islam in a debate you know it's just dawahganda nonsense because the guy has never spoken out for freedom of speech or LGBT rights in his entire life unless he is in a debate and he has to divert the topic.

Maajid Nawaz, Usama Hassan use their liberal interpretation in a genuine attempt to reform the religion where as Tzortzis and the like are only focused on getting converts and THAT is how you separate the genuine liberal muslims from the dawahganda liars.

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Reply #21 - April 06, 2014, 11:54 PM

Quote from: TheDarkRebel on April 06, 2014, 02:25 PM
Maajid Nawaz

...........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJI7D5hU-mU

Damn good one., That is very nice to see., That is a very +ve thing.,

If Maajid Nawaz could change means., anyone and every hardcore Islamist could be changed.. it is just one has to push right buttons at right time.,

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Reply #22 - April 07, 2014, 11:55 AM

After this it is ye, the same people, who slay among yourselves, and banish a party of you from their homes; assist (Their enemies) against them, in guilt and rancour; and if they come to you as captives, ye ransom them, though it was not lawful for you to banish them. Then is it only a part of the book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?- and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.- 85:2

Go on Muslims cherry-pick your religion. Forget that the Ahadith requires niqab not hijab. Reduce the five daily prayers to one and even discard the above verse for the ease of cherry-picking.
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Reply #23 - April 07, 2014, 12:16 PM

Quote from: Rubaya on April 07, 2014, 11:55 AM
After this it is ye, the same people, who slay among yourselves, and banish a party of you from their homes; assist (Their enemies) against them, in guilt and rancour; and if they come to you as captives, ye ransom them, though it was not lawful for you to banish them. Then is it only a part of the book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?- and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.- ~~85:2~~

That is from AL-BAQARA .. That is from COW not from allah doll and that should be 2: 85 not 85:2 Rubaya

Anyways As far as this is concerned
Quote
Go on Muslims cherry-pick your religion. Forget that the Ahadith requires niqab not hijab. Reduce the five daily prayers to one and even discard the above verse for the ease of cherry-picking.

I think there is nothing wrong in cherry picking verses/statements from any religious silly books. People must have that freedom to burn the bad stuff keep the good stuff, what they think is good,,

Good bad ugly whatever., as long as I & my types have freedom to question everything and they stop infusing their religious mambo jumbo rules in to politics ..And..and If they follow the simple rules "Universal Human rights"., I have no problem with cherry-picking Muslims or for that matter any one cherry picking from any religious book.

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Reply #24 - April 07, 2014, 01:41 PM

I am with you Yeezevee. But the thing is some Muslims who cherry-picks have problem with others that don't follow what they thing is important or mandatory. This opinion was directed at them and those who believe in the non-existent Islamic hell. Those ladies have no right to say that that gay man is not a Muslim, when all three have been cherry-picking.
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Reply #25 - April 08, 2014, 01:20 PM

Quote from: TheDarkRebel on April 06, 2014, 07:47 PM

When DawahMan and Hamza Tzortzis say stuff like "freedom of speech" is allowed in islam in a debate you know it's just dawahganda nonsense because the guy has never spoken out for freedom of speech or LGBT rights in his entire life unless he is in a debate and he has to divert the topic.

First of all, I wouldn't call them "liberals" and I don't think any sane person would in all honesty. Secondly, I think it is clear to anyone who has two brain cells in their head, that their so called concern with "freedom of speech" only pertains to their right to express their views, spread them and expecting people to tolerate their intolerance. Everyone knows that they would never defend a LGTB person's right to "freedom of speech" in an ideal "Islamic state".

And by the way @yeezevee: yes, cherry picking Islam can be awesome, but these people come across like first class dirtbags when they won't allow everyone else cherry picking in a way that suits them personally.

"The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
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