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Theme Changer

 Topic: Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia

 (Read 3230 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     OP - April 17, 2014, 10:26 PM
    Quote from: Cornflower on April 17, 2014, 10:22 PM
    This is a world war.
    Seriously HM, marry me. No one gonna appreciate your cooking skills more than me Wink


    Are two forum witnesses enough?
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #1 - April 17, 2014, 10:29 PM
    For adultery? Nope.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #2 - April 17, 2014, 10:36 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on April 17, 2014, 10:26 PM
    Are two forum witnesses enough?

    Male or female? grin12
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #3 - April 17, 2014, 10:39 PM
    Males are fine enough. But females just to piss Allah off would be even better.
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #4 - April 17, 2014, 10:42 PM
    Hey I just thought of something. How would sharia deal with intersex peeps? Would you need three of them?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #5 - April 17, 2014, 10:47 PM
    hmm
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #6 - April 17, 2014, 10:50 PM
    You mean actual hermaphrodites or transsexual people?
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #7 - April 17, 2014, 10:51 PM
    I think he means hermaphrodites...as far as I know, there isn't much mention of them in classical Islamic commentary.

    However, "The council ‎of the ‎Islamic Fiqh Assembly of the Muslim World League in its eleventh session ‎addressed the ruling on the permissibility of sex change operations from male to ‎female and vice versa. The ‎council, after exhaustive discussions, concluded the ‎following: ‎
    First: The change is not legally permissible if the person (male or female) has ‎complete male or female sex organs…This is because this person would be ‎seeking to change Allah’s creation, and this was made illegal by ‎Allah as ‎in the verse in which Allah reports Satan as saying: [quote from Nisâ’, 4: 119]."
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #8 - April 17, 2014, 10:54 PM
    Confusing innit? LIke if a bloke is worth two women in a sharia court, then logically a person who was both male and female (in effect) would be worth 1.5 women.

    So if you need two blokes or four women, then logically you'd need 3 intersex peeps (equivalent to 4.5 women), or one bloke and two intersex peeps (5 woman equivalent units) or 1 women and two intersex peeps (4 units). If you had only one intersex person with one bloke or with two women, you'd only have 3.5 units, which wouldn't be enough.

    Fatwa is required. yes
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #9 - April 17, 2014, 10:55 PM
    Yes, yes there is my friend Smiley There are extensive discussions how a hermaphrodite for example should pray. They should form a row behind the men, but in front of the women, if the "true sex" of the hermaphrodite is "ambiguous" Smiley
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #10 - April 17, 2014, 10:56 PM
    I'm assuming a hermaphrodite and one other woman would be enough to meet sharia requirements of "a man and two women" for witnesses.
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #11 - April 17, 2014, 10:57 PM
    Hi Os, I believe that certain fiqh schools do have rulings on hermaphrodites, some say that they should not be treated as outcasts. These are supported by certain Qur'anic verses which state that Allah has made everyone equally etc...
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #12 - April 17, 2014, 10:57 PM
    Quote from: Cornflower on April 17, 2014, 10:55 PM
    Yes, yes there is my friend Smiley There are extensive discussions how a hermaphrodite for example should pray. They should form a row behind the men, but in front of the women, if the "true sex" of the hermaphrodite is "ambiguous" Smiley


    Ooh any sources please(In terms of fiqh)? I'm yet to find extensive mentions but that's probably because I haven't searched hard enough in terms of classical commentary.
    I couldn't find a concrete answer on how they would be treated in sharia but I'm happy to be corrected.

    (This topic actually came up on twitter today too, funny)
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #13 - April 17, 2014, 11:02 PM
    I mean, I keep seeing "so and so says..." "it could be implied from the Qur'an...."  But I haven't been able to come across any direct rulings.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #14 - April 17, 2014, 11:05 PM
    HippyMustard! Thou art ein moderator. We needz thread split. Kthnx. parrot
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #15 - April 17, 2014, 11:05 PM
    We studied it when reading Ibn Qudama's Umdat al Fiqh. Not sure if it was part of this specific fiqhi text, or if it was an addition from our teacher taken from Ibn Qudama's more advanced fiqh compilations.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #16 - April 17, 2014, 11:08 PM
    Ok thanks, I'll take a look at Qudama's (I actually downloaded a part of it yesterday)
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #17 - April 17, 2014, 11:09 PM
    Quote from: Cornflower on April 17, 2014, 11:05 PM
    We studied it when reading Ibn Qudama's Umdat al Fiqh. Not sure if it was part of this specific fiqhi text, or if it was an addition from our teacher taken from Ibn Qudama's more advanced fiqh compilations.


    See, that's the issue that I have. Many online sources talk about fiqh but are disgustingly poor in their (non-existent) referencing.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #18 - April 17, 2014, 11:15 PM
    I was gonna call it "Beneficial Insights for Witnessing Hermaphrodites," as the best fiqh books always rhyme. It was too long a title, though. Grin
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #19 - April 17, 2014, 11:16 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on April 17, 2014, 10:54 PM
    Confusing innit? LIke if a bloke is worth two women in a sharia court, then logically a person who was both male and female (in effect) would be worth 1.5 women.

    So if you need two blokes or four women, then logically you'd need 3 intersex peeps (equivalent to 4.5 women), or one bloke and two intersex peeps (5 woman equivalent units) or 2 women and two intersex peeps (also 5 units). If you had only one intersex person with one bloke or with two women, you'd only have 3.5 units, which wouldn't be enough.

    Fatwa is required. yes


    I honestly think you are looking at it all wrong. If one man is worth two women, and a hermaphrodite is in effect a man and a woman, then a hermaphrodite would be worth 1.5 men. You'd only need one more woman to meet the 1 dude and two women requirement. And Allah knows best.
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #20 - April 17, 2014, 11:16 PM
    Quote from: Cornflower on April 17, 2014, 10:55 PM
    Yes, yes there is my friend Smiley There are extensive discussions how a hermaphrodite for example should pray. They should form a row behind the men, but in front of the women, if the "true sex" of the hermaphrodite is "ambiguous" Smiley

    See this would also imply them being worth 1.5 women, or 0.75 of a bloke, in a sharia court.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #21 - April 17, 2014, 11:18 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on April 17, 2014, 11:16 PM
    I honestly think you are looking at it all wrong. If one man is worth two women, and a hermaphrodite is in effect a man and a woman, then a hermaphrodite would be worth 1.5 men. You'd only need one more woman to meet the 1 dude and two women requirement. And Allah knows best.


    But judging by inheritance calculations etc... Allah isn't the best mathematician, maybe he could get 3/2 wrong?
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #22 - April 17, 2014, 11:18 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on April 17, 2014, 11:16 PM
    I honestly think you are looking at it all wrong. If one man is worth two women, and a hermaphrodite is in effect a man and a woman, then a hermaphrodite would be worth 1.5 men. You'd only need one more woman to meet the 1 dude and two women requirement. And Allah knows best.

    No, coz they in between. Also, my bet is that no fatwa is going to say that adding female elements to a man makes him more than a man. They just couldn't cope with that concept. Their tiny little brains would melt down. Cheesy
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #23 - April 17, 2014, 11:20 PM
    The (not so) funny thing is this is exactly how "differences of opinion" among Islamic scholars actually sound. Grin
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #24 - April 17, 2014, 11:21 PM
    You think that's funny?

    I'll show you funny!

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #25 - April 17, 2014, 11:24 PM
    https://twitter.com/W_I_A_F/status/456608341691604993/photo/1https://twitter.com/W_I_A_F/status/456608341691604993/photo/1
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #26 - April 17, 2014, 11:25 PM
     Cheesy Umm. No piccy url in there.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #27 - April 17, 2014, 11:35 PM
    Quote from: Qtian on April 17, 2014, 10:51 PM
    I think he means hermaphrodites...as far as I know, there isn't much mention of them in classical Islamic commentary.

    However, "The council ‎of the ‎Islamic Fiqh Assembly of the Muslim World League in its eleventh session ‎addressed the ruling on the permissibility of sex change operations from male to ‎female and vice versa. The ‎council, after exhaustive discussions, concluded the ‎following: ‎
    First: The change is not legally permissible if the person (male or female) has ‎complete male or female sex organs…This is because this person would be ‎seeking to change Allah’s creation, and this was made illegal by ‎Allah as ‎in the verse in which Allah reports Satan as saying: [quote from Nisâ’, 4: 119]."

    Hang on a minute. Even if there aren't complete units of any persuasion, an operation would still be "seeking to change Allah’s creation".

    ETA: Come to think of it, this would apply to just about any cosmetic surgery too (unless for repairing injury).
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #28 - April 17, 2014, 11:37 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on April 17, 2014, 11:25 PM
    Cheesy Umm. No piccy url in there.


     wacko



    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlYy3hhCIAESXOe.jpg
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Witnessing Hermaphrodites in Sharia
     Reply #29 - April 17, 2014, 11:41 PM
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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