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 Topic: Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?

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  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     OP - May 04, 2014, 04:00 PM
    I have come across these two websites, www.quranicpath.com and www.quran-sislam.org. Although they try to twist the meanings of verses and sugar coat many bad stuff in the Quran but they do have some legitimate points in going against the Ahadith. This link might be interesting- http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_4/debunking_claims_for_hadith_%28P1458%29.html. Of course, there are more articles for our perusal, especially in the second website. My question is can the majority of Muslims be wrong?
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #1 - May 04, 2014, 04:10 PM
    It's not necessarily an issue of wrong, exactly (although technically I'd say that they're all wrong no matter what interpretation of Islam Grin). Still, I know it is a really unpopular opinion, but if for some reason I had to go back to Islam, I'd still go back to being a Quranist. I always found it much easier to argue against the hadith than to argue against the Quran-alone position. It always made so much more sense to me, but now of course it is frustrating in that it makes for the world's most annoying apologists.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #2 - May 04, 2014, 04:11 PM
    ive never understood why more muslims aren't 'quran only'.
    there is surely the motivation to be. Most of the really embarrassing components of Islamic belief come from hadith.
    I have asked Muslims why they feel they need them, and the response is that they are to follow the quran and 'the sunnah'.
    But I feel that they are just assuming that the ahadith are in fact - the sunnah.
    Anybody who has taken even a cursory look at 'the science of hadith' can tell that it isn't up to scratch. At the very least, you would have to concede that it is a manmade system.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #3 - May 04, 2014, 05:23 PM
    Reading the quran, I think it's nearly impossible to be quran alone while not chosing to literally ignore over 50 verses in the quran. Still, hadith literature is nothing but anectodes with no scientific reliability. The quran shares its place.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #4 - May 04, 2014, 06:22 PM
    I think it's nearly impossible to be quran alone while not chosing to literally ignore over 50 verses in the quran.

    Can you explain it for me Cornflower?
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #5 - May 04, 2014, 06:29 PM
    Quote from: Cornflower on May 04, 2014, 05:23 PM
    Reading the quran, I think it's nearly impossible to be quran alone while not chosing to literally ignore over 50 verses in the quran. Still, hadith literature is nothing but anectodes with no scientific reliability. The quran shares its place.


    Well, to support the hadith as something with authority also goes against many verses in the Quran. The way I see it, to then branch out into the hadith creates a level of extra complication that makes a questionable institution even more questionable. Out of curiosity, are there a few strong verses you can think of off the top of your head?
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #6 - May 04, 2014, 06:30 PM
    Ahadith makes Islam more illogical and OCDish IMHO.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #7 - May 04, 2014, 07:08 PM
    I don't have the motivation to start writing it all down, but I suggest a book in Englih "The authority of the Sunnah" by Jamal Zarabozo. You can read it online if you search for it. He goes through a about 40 verses that explicitly deals with this, and I think that even the staunchest quranist would have some difficulties to explain away some of them. Sorry, I just find quranist to be even sillier that regular Muslims Smiley Quran alone is maybe not as complicated as Quran with sunnah, but Quran alone is easier to dismiss as the shit it is (because it simply can't hold up without the hadith)
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #8 - May 04, 2014, 07:13 PM
    Thanks Cornflower I will surely read it. Actually I was looking forward to participation of yours and Happymurtad's in this thread. You two are the authority here of Islam in CEM.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #9 - May 04, 2014, 07:16 PM
    Quote from: Cornflower on May 04, 2014, 07:08 PM
    I don't have the motivation to start writing it all down, but I suggest a book in Englih "The authority of the Sunnah" by Jamal Zarabozo. You can read it online if you search for it. He goes through a about 40 verses that explicitly deals with this, and I think that even the staunchest quranist would have some difficulties to explain away some of them. Sorry, I just find quranist to be even sillier that regular Muslims Smiley Quran alone is maybe not as complicated as Quran with sunnah, but Quran alone is easier to dismiss as the shit it is (because it simply can't hold up without the hadith)


    I don't agree as it stands; as we all know the Quran is full of contradictions and there are still many verses in support of the Quran alone, so the fact that there's ones in support of the hadith doesn't necessarily throw Sunnis a victory in my opinion. And the idea that you can't have a religion that can hold its own weight with the Quran alone doesn't make much sense to me, either; given that it's all nonsense to begin with, it's a bit of a pain to be arguing for one or the other, but it is certainly possible and I see the Quran and the hadith in conjunction as creating no more stable of a religious system.

    But I'll have to check it out, maybe it'll show me something I'm missing.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #10 - May 04, 2014, 07:16 PM
    lol I'm far from an authority in anything. HM has always something interesting to say though so yeah, on that I agree Smiley
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #11 - May 04, 2014, 07:42 PM
    My credentials as an “authority” on anything Islamic are steadily withering away to a state of apathy and boredom with the topic, honestly. Grin

    That said, though, I think I’d tend to side more with cornflower on this. Islam becomes virtually unrecognizable if you resort to a “Qur’an only” interpretation. There is not a single one of the five pillars that you could establish without reference to the ahadith. How would you pray? How would you give zakat? When would you break your fast? How the hell would you perform hajj? Even the exact formula of the shahada is only found in the ahadith. I haven’t had much interaction with “Qur’an only” Muslims, but when I have, they almost invariably adopt aspects of the sunnah even when they don’t like to admit it.

    Still, as I began to become disillusioned with salafism, I did adopt a sort of “minimalist” approach that I thought had some backing in the Qur’an and in the sunnah. Essentially, my focus shifted greatly to the idea of promoting and understanding tawheed as opposed to focusing on the sunnah. There are loads of ayaat and ahadith that emphasize the importance of tawheed, but salafis were so caught up in spreading the sunnah that I felt the worship of Allah alone often went neglected as a call. This is particularly true when it came to giving dawah to non-Muslims. There are several examples in the sunnah where the prophet would instruct those who were not continuously in his company to focus on tawheed, prayer, and fasting. He’d then guarantee them success if they stuck to only that. I began to think that if we trimmed away the fat and focused only on those elements (to the exclusion of things like beards, hijab, and other prohibitions from the sunnah), we’d actually be behaving closer to the sunnah.

    I gave shahada to several people in that manner, never delving deeper into more troublesome aspects of Islam. At least, I thought, I’d be “saving them from the hellfire.”

    Anyway, that approach soon became unsatisfying as well as I found that I was deliberately hiding aspects of Islam that I knew were controversial. Also, the call to “tawheed” relies very heavily on it being abundantly evident that Allah was the creator of the universe. As that narrative began to unravel in my mind and right before my eyes as I read books on the subject, I really didn’t have an “Islam” to cling on to. It was just going through the motions until my apostasy simply couldn’t be contained any longer. 
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #12 - May 04, 2014, 08:00 PM
    I wonder if anyone has ever attempted to  re interpreted islam without the sunnah, but still there are verses in the quran such as punishments that ruin the beauty of tawheed.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #13 - May 04, 2014, 09:01 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on May 04, 2014, 07:42 PM
    That said, though, I think I’d tend to side more with cornflower on this. Islam becomes virtually unrecognizable if you resort to a “Qur’an only” interpretation. There is not a single one of the five pillars that you could establish without reference to the ahadith. How would you pray? How would you give zakat? When would you break your fast? How the hell would you perform hajj? Even the exact formula of the shahada is only found in the ahadith. I haven’t had much interaction with “Qur’an only” Muslims, but when I have, they almost invariably adopt aspects of the sunnah even when they don’t like to admit it.


    I hesitate to say that this is the position of all Quranists--of course that is not true--but this was the case for myself, for all that I knew, and the position of virtually every Quranist resource I ever consulted: for many of us, it was not the case that we totally rejected any and all hadith. In fact, I knew many who liked a good deal of them, and I knew one guy who was of the position that all of them were totally respectable and reliable (I was not of the same opinion, and he and I had many passionate debates back in the day). The basic idea was usually that it was fine, if not even recommended, to consult the hadith as guides for certain things, especially those you mentioned, like prayer and zakat. If there seemed no conflict with the Quran, many would say that there was nothing wrong with following aspects of the sunnah. I knew some who prayed the way Sunnis did, and others who did fewer times a day and in their own ways.

    However, across the board, we would reject the idea that a hadith had the authority to become a worldly law. The hadith simply could not be the basis for legislation, it could especially not be for things that carried the weight of capital punishment--these were for the things mentioned in the Quran alone. The fundamental difference was compulsion; we simply did not believe it had the authority to become a law. 
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #14 - May 04, 2014, 09:02 PM
    Quote from: suki on May 04, 2014, 08:00 PM
    I wonder if anyone has ever attempted to  re interpreted islam without the sunnah, but still there are verses in the quran such as punishments that ruin the beauty of tawheed.

    That's where pick and mix comes in. The benefits of being quran only is that you don't have to accept more of the troubling aspects of islam. Child rape, war crimes, a lot of nonsense. One of the things I came across as while ago when having quran only explained to me from this persons perspective that I recall Was Mo molesting Aisha. Prophets cannot do moral acts. A man in his 50s having sex with a 9 year old is immoral. Thus, if's false.

    I thought it was rather desperate myself, but whatever. Their life.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #15 - May 04, 2014, 09:12 PM
    the quran claims to be a detailed explanation of all things. It is strange that gods perfect, clear and comprehensive word wouldn't be enough
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #16 - May 04, 2014, 09:15 PM
    People who accept the hadith say that the Quran very clearly instructs the believers to refer matters to Mo and his way of living. Which it does, in so many places, both directly and indirectly, explicitly and implicitly.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #17 - May 04, 2014, 09:17 PM
    Quote from: lua on May 04, 2014, 09:01 PM

    However, across the board, we would reject the idea that a hadith had the authority to become a worldly law. The hadith simply could not be the basis for legislation, it could especially not be for things that carried the weight of capital punishment--these were for the things mentioned in the Quran alone. The fundamental difference was compulsion; we simply did not believe it had the authority to become a law.  


    So, what was done with verses like:

    “And whatsoever the messenger gives you, take it. And whatsoever he makes prohibited unto you, abstain from it.”

    “Whosoever obeys the messenger has obeyed Allah.”

    “And we have sent down The Reminder (the Qur’an) unto you, (Oh Muhammad), so that you may explain to the people that which has been revealed to them.”

    “And by your lord, they shall not believe until they make you the judge for whatever arises between them, then find no uneasiness in themselves regarding what you have decreed.”

    Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #18 - May 04, 2014, 09:26 PM
    Quote from: Cornflower on May 04, 2014, 09:15 PM
    People who accept the hadith say that the Quran very clearly instructs the believers to refer matters to Mo and his way of living. Which it does, in so many places, both directly and indirectly, explicitly and implicitly.


    yeah but doesnt say you will find such things in books called ahadith, or give any of the methods used by those who judge their 'authenticity'. Doesnt say that Bukhari knows his shit.
    There is a lot of trust in the methods of man, for a perfect religion of god.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #19 - May 04, 2014, 09:32 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on May 04, 2014, 09:17 PM
    So, what was done with verses like:

    “And whatsoever the messenger gives you, take it. And whatsoever he makes prohibited unto you, abstain from it.”

    “Whosoever obeys the messenger has obeyed Allah.”

    “And we have sent down The Reminder (the Qur’an) unto you, (Oh Muhammad), so that you may explain to the people that which has been revealed to them.”

    “And by your lord, they shall not believe until they make you the judge for whatever arises between them, then find no uneasiness in themselves regarding what you have decreed.”

    Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?



    For that, there were a few things, so, depending on which resource/Quranist you spoke to, he'd probably give you some mixture of the following:

    I knew a lot of people who were quick to point out that Mohammed wasn't infallible in his behavior and so to emulate him could not have been completely reliable, and they would typically point to 66:1 to make that point. I knew others who, if you threw those verses at them, they would simply combat your verses with the ones in support of the Quran alone--ones like what Dr_sloth was alluding to, the popular ones being 6:114, 77:50, and basically all of the ones that speak about how perfect and complete the Quran is and how legislation is for God alone.

    Now, there were others, and this is kind of where I was at the time, who didn't really even bother with much of that, and who went right to the logical trouble with the hadith: that it was a glorified game of telephone compiled far after Mohammad's death, that many of them were simply not true (I'd point to ones with bad "science" most of the time), and that they were far too unreliable to ever use as legislation. Many would say that Mohammed's rulings at the time were supposed to stay at that time, influence the people and community of that critical time--otherwise they would be in the perfect and complete book, and not in a mixed bag of questionable and sometimes contradictory accounts well after the fact.

    That was the argument, anyway.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #20 - May 04, 2014, 09:38 PM
    Of course, but since allah promised he would protect and preserve the religion, and given that the sunnah is a fundamental part of the religion, it is logical to conclude that allah would make sure to preserve the authentic corpora of the hadith literature.

    @happymurtad
    The last verse is in particular interesting, I don't think I ever was a true believer given the fact that I most definitely had this problem ----> حرج   Roll Eyes
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #21 - May 04, 2014, 09:43 PM
    ^ It's weird, because when you talk about this stuff you kind of have to jump back into that mentality where there's anything to salvage at all, and that's pretty annoying. Grin But, again, the problem with the Quran is that it is very contradictory, if you try to combat the Quranist view of this using the verses, both sides will have support.

    And then it comes down to this argument, and I've seen this happen quite a bit (I stayed away from this approach for the most part because of my limited Arabic, and let Arabic-speaking Quranists duke it out), over whose verses are more clear, more succinct, and whose contradictory ones could possible be interpreted in another way. So a Quranist would look at what you're saying and say perhaps that is a logical conclusion, but look at where we go following the logical trails of our verses.

  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #22 - May 04, 2014, 09:55 PM
    Quote from: lua on May 04, 2014, 09:32 PM

    That was the argument, anyway.


    And I guess that’s the big problem with the Qur’an. The counter arguments to so many of its arguments are found right there in the book, often times not many verses away.

    Quote from: Cornflower on May 04, 2014, 09:38 PM
    @happymurtad
    The last verse is in particular interesting, I don't think I ever was a true believer given the fact that I most definitely had this problem ----> حرج   Roll Eyes


    Funny you mention that, CF. The idea that not only do you have to accept whatever Mo does, you also have to be completely supportive of it is a troubling one.

    I remember singling out that word (حرج)as it relates to Surah Ahzab verse 50 where Allah tells Mo he can basically have whatever women he wants so that he does not face any (حرج) “uneasiness.”  I remember thinking, so Muslims from then on out will have to deal with the “uneasiness” of the fact that Allah essentially allowed Mo to pimp himself out to any women who threw themselves at him in order to spare Mo the “uneasiness” of having to show a little self restraint. 
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #23 - May 04, 2014, 10:01 PM
    It's one thing to think that yeah, this is my religion and I believe in it. I don't feel OK deep down or comfortable, but allah knows best so I'll just submit. It's still whacked, but at least it's within what is "human". Mo didn't settle with that though, he had to take it one step further. So when I hear Mo having no problem with cutting a woman's genitals, just as long as you don't take too much, I have to feel indifferent and just accept it.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #24 - May 04, 2014, 10:08 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on May 04, 2014, 09:55 PM
    And I guess that’s the big problem with the Qur’an. The counter arguments to so many of its arguments are found right there in the book, often times not many verses away.


    No kidding. I was never the best Muslim, and I know exactly how I got to be a Quranist: some of the hadith were demonstrably false, and the entire premise was nonsense to me. It just took me a while to accept that, while not as demonstrably false, the Quran was nonsensical just the same.

    But as long as you are all willing to agree that the one solid rock to stand on is that book, you can make a good case for either interpretation. I would not agree with the idea that Quranists are easily disputed; they simply do not have the history on their side, and I think that was the necessary occurrence not because of the legitimacy of the Sunni interpretation or how obviously correct the hadith are, but because of the time period in which most of the classical jurisprudence was established; and now it is the majority, and now it is the tradition.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #25 - May 04, 2014, 10:14 PM
    To me, one of the biggest problems with Quranist accepting any hadith is that once you do, the ahadith are very explicitly in favor of accepting the sunnah and avoiding bid’ah.  Once you allow me to bring in ahadith, the case for following the sunnah becomes water-tight in my opinion.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #26 - May 04, 2014, 10:21 PM
    ^ I suppose it depends on what you mean by accepting. I will always remember, I knew a guy who was explaining his position on the matter, specifically about prayer, to a very angry Sunni in a cafe, who put it this way: he said that the sunnah about the prayer makes sense to him, doesn't seem to go against the Quran, and he has no better idea, so it is a good guide and, even if when the show is over that turned out to be not authentic, it was a good show of effort to complete the prayer. But he would not presume able to order another Muslim to do it. "And if someone came to me and said I have to do it this way, it is the law, even if I like it, even if I do it, I will tell them 'Fuck you.'"

    Conversely, there was that one guy who thought that all of the hadith were totally fine, but he still shared that view that we all did that it simply cannot have worldly punishments. He believed disobeying something in the hadith might have a punishment in the hereafter (not all do, but he did), but that it still could not be worked into legislation.

    I personally thought that not a single one had any authority whatsoever, and in any way. They were far too unreliable. So you definitely have a spectrum to deal with, as always, with this sect.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #27 - May 04, 2014, 10:36 PM
    I understand the sentiment. I have to say that I do view it as a bit naïve, or perhaps uninformed is a better way of putting it. Once you delve into both the Qur’an and the ahadith, I think they become inseparably dependent upon one another.  Once you accept the validity of what is found in the ahadith, then Muhammad is essentially saying “You have to do it this way. It’s the law.”

    “Pray as you have seen me pray.”

    “Take your pilgrimage rites from me.”

    “Whosoever does an action in this religion that does not have my approval will have it rejected.”

    “Hold fast to my sunnah and the sunnah of the rightly guided caliphs after me. Hold firmly to it. Clamp down upon it with your molar teeth. Beware of newly invented matters, for every newly invented matter is an innovation and every innovation is a deviation.”

    "I have left you with two things that if you stick to them, you will never go astray: The book of Allah and my sunnah.”

    “I have left you upon the clear path. Its night is just as bright as its day. None swerve there from without meeting destruction.”

    And so on and so forth. I have a hard time understanding how someone overly familiar with the Qur’an and the Sunnah can seek to divorce one from the other. They are ocean water and salt, if you will.  

    I do get it, though. The sunnah is so remarkably absurd that it must be very appealing to reserve the right to set it aside. I just don’t think it is a very credible solution if you care about maintaining any sort of scriptural integrity and honesty.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #28 - May 04, 2014, 10:49 PM
    ^ Perhaps I was not entirely clear with the last one; the guy who thinks that all the hadith are great is definitely a minority. Most Quranists will, if anything, follow one or two aspects of the sunnah, if they want to. And these are typically ones that have nothing to do with law. If you come to them with the batch that intertwines them and makes them a package deal, it will be irrelevant to them. It is in contradiction with the Quran according to the verses that support their position, and a complete non-issue. Even if they like some of the hadith, it is a personal matter, and the Quran will always trump the hadith.

    I get what you're saying though, but to me this goes both ways. Some hadith do appear to be in contradiction with the Quran. So in either case, you're asking them to cherry pick and you're asking them to do some mental gymnastics. In one case, you can say if one of them is correct, all of them should be correct. For me, it was far easier to say that if one of them was wrong, all of them could be wrong.

    That one final place to stand on was this book that promoted itself as something serving that specific purpose: detailed, complete, the only guide, the only resource, the perfect word of God. Taking one position is not much unlike taking the other, in that you will find that the contradictory nature of the Quran will provide ammunition against you.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #29 - May 04, 2014, 10:57 PM
    If mo had personally jotted down the hadiths and created some kind of law and code of conduct etc, then i would have taken them a bit more seriously, a lot are also clearly misinterpreted as is some of the quran..  
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