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 Topic: Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?

 (Read 43604 times)
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  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #30 - May 04, 2014, 11:56 PM

    I don't have the motivation to start writing it all down, but I suggest a book in Englih "The authority of the Sunnah" by Jamal Zarabozo. ..............................




    The Authority and Importance of The Sunnah   by Jamal Al-Din Zaraboz  2 Used from $12.49 12 New from $14.65

    well Down load it Don't spend your hard earned money..

    No wonder people waste too much time reading NONSENSE

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #31 - May 05, 2014, 05:43 AM

    @Happymurtad- There is a saying in Ahadith where Mo says not to write anything about him after his death. And how did the Muslims went on before the Ahadith came into existence. Some Quranists claim that the ahadith that is being asked to follow by us in the Quran is the ahadith of the Quran. And it sounds really strange that a "complete" and "clear" book nees reference. I mean the Quran lacks many thing but those are not essentially necessary to practise Islam. What if God allowed the Muslims to pay alms in their own ways?
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #32 - May 05, 2014, 08:26 AM

    The first hours took me way back during my usool lessons  dance

    Hadith (first hour basics about the hadeeth literature)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kH3SqqY_ok

    Anyway, if I remember correctly, there are certain narrations where Mo says to Abu Huraira not to write the hadiths down. But these are "earlier" narrations when the Quran was still in its cradle. Later on, in Madinah, there are explicit narrations from Mo that say that people should have no problem with writing down his sayings. Abu Hurairah, supposedly, wrote down thousands of hadiths. I thing Klingschor very briefly mentions the little "convincing" story (about the Hamam guy or whatever his name was, my brain does not keep tracks of things like that anymore) Muslims use to demonstrate the strength of usool al hadith (even though Klingschor does not describe it as so). Read the book Yeez put up because it goes through it very extensively, but in an easily comprehensive way. Bilal Philips also wrote one on usool hadith (I didn't like it personally, too "messy" for my taste), but the classical work of Ibn Salah is translated and available. If it's not available at your library, perhaps you can suggest that they get it.


    On a side note, as a comment on what is said on the J&T show: the fact that scholars are not agreeing on what hadiths are saheeh/hasan/daeef/munkar or that contemporary hadith scholars (al Albani is a famous one on this) still are in debates about what hadeeths are hasan/saheeh or whatever. This demonstrates very clearly that the classifications, in the end, are pretty arbitrary because it is up to the individual scholar to make a personal decision. There are really no clear cut universal guidelines how to classify a text. That's why one scholar dismisses one hadith as daeef, but another one accepts it as hasan Roll Eyes

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #33 - May 05, 2014, 12:40 PM

    @Happymurtad- There is a saying in Ahadith where Mo says not to write anything about him after his death. And how did the Muslims went on before the Ahadith came into existence. Some Quranists claim that the ahadith that is being asked to follow by us in the Quran is the ahadith of the Quran. And it sounds really strange that a "complete" and "clear" book nees reference. I mean the Quran lacks many thing but those are not essentially necessary to practise Islam. What if God allowed the Muslims to pay alms in their own ways?



    There are narrations from earlier stages of Qur’anic revelation in which the prophet forbade anything other than the Qur’an to be written from him. The “scholars” of hadith note that this was to ensure that the companions were able to distinguish between the Qur’an and the ahadith.

    Later on though, there are numerous specific and general examples of Muhammad ordering his followers to write stuff down. “Capture this knowledge with writing,” is one that is often stated specifically for the purpose of demonstrating that Muhammad authorized the writing of his sayings and actions, so is “Write things down for Abu Shah.” Abu Shah was supposedly a guy who came to ask Muhammad about some rulings and Muhammad commanded that those rulings be written down.

    Further, from the perspective of Ahlus-sunnah, just as the Qur’an orders belivers to pray, fast, and make hajj, it also orders the believers to follow the way of the prophet. There is a principle in fiqh that states “maa laa yatimm al waajib illa bihi fa huwa waajib – That which an obligatory action cannot be fulfilled without is also obligatory.” In other words, the means to an obligatory action also become obligatory.  

    So, for example, because the believers are ordered to pray in a mosque, it stands to follow that building mosques is also obligatory.

    Similarly, as believers are ordered in the Qur’an (on too many occasions to ignore, in my old opinion) to follow the way of the prophet, it stands to follow that developing a system by which we can document, preserve, and apply the “way” of the prophet also becomes obligatory.

    That’s the rationale, at least.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #34 - May 05, 2014, 01:31 PM

    Read the book Yeez put up because it goes through it very extensively, but in an easily comprehensive way.


    Yeezevee, you are the greatest!  happydance I will have to read this when the week is over; we have to organize and present our research findings at a neighboring university this week...

    Now that I've stepped outside of Islam, I have such mixed feelings about it. Since the telephone game is nonsense and some of the hadith are undeniably scientifically false, I do still consider Quranism to be the route I'd take again and again if I were back in that situation where, for some reason, something about the theology seemed worth saving. Now, although I do not agree (yet! I may be back in a week after the book) that there are ever any checkmate moments in the Quran or logic you can derive from it that makes Quranism an invalid interpretation of the religion, I do have extremely conflicting feelings on it now from a personal stance.

    On one hand, I absolutely hate arguing with Quranists now. They drive me crazy. Is it because I remember their arguments so well, or that I see my old self in them? Or is it just that Quranists tend to be the smug and modern sort? Come to think of it, most of the outspoken Muslim feminists I know are also Quranists. Is it because I want all Muslims of all divisions to have to look plainly and head on at the terrible stuff that comes out of the religion without distancing themselves from it? Very probably.

    However, if you can convince someone of it, it is a great way to get a strict Sunni to calm the fuck down. I have known people who began to tilt in this direction who became far better people. And of course they did, they got to get to a position where it was somewhat easier to run from the uglier things in Islam, although, in my opinion, pretty much everything awful can be traced back to an interpretation of the Quran anyway. And for some people, Quranism was that final stop before apostasy, especially if they got there the way I did, by slowly beginning to see more and more of the theology as illogical. But for other people, it is just a safer place to hide and stay indefinitely.  wacko
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #35 - May 05, 2014, 01:50 PM

    I always disliked Quranist. Not just out of theological and sectarian reasons, but because I often perceived them as smug and "modern" as you put it. I thought it was intellectually dishonest to try make Islam into something it clearly isn't. And as you say, even if you do take out the hadeeth, the Quran is still a pretty awful book. The thing with some Quranist, and with every single (Quranist) Muslim feminist I've ever come across, is that once you think it is legitimate to dismiss the hadeeths, it is as easy to just "ignore" or "explain away" certain uncomfortable verses. Given the fact that you don't have to take the prophetic explanations and seerah context for a lot of the verses, it also becomes easier to find some excuse why it's not this or that.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #36 - May 05, 2014, 02:20 PM

    I’m obviously all for Muslims discarding whatever parts of Islam they can. Grin

    Still, though, there is something about Qur’anists that irritates me. I’m not sure if it is so much the “smug” and “modern” attitude, though that may very well be a part of it.

    I think it is the same thing that irritates me about Muslims who “accept evolution for all species apart from human beings.” It is clear that nothing in traditional Islamic literature supports evolution.  It is also clear that the same evidence that exists for the evolution of the rest of earth’s species also exists for human beings. The entire exercise just seems to be a way of holding on to something that should be discarded if we are to be intellectually and scripturally honest.

    And as I think about it, I think that the dishonestly is really the thing that annoys me the most. Any scholar familiar with the corpus of the Qur’an and its history that argues that a “Qur’an only” interpretation is most valid is displaying a certain element of dishonesty in my opinion. Sure, you can pick out a couple of verses that seem to show that the Qur’an can stand on its own, but when you look at the overwhelming injunctions to follow the sunnah, coupled with what Muhammad’s companions actually did, then following the sunnah becomes imperative.

    Certainly, an argument can be made questioning the authenticity of the entirety of what has been reported in the sunnah, but that is something that has long been acknowledged and continuously dealt with. To completely dismiss the authority of the sunnah or to say that it does not have legislative power, though, is naïve at best and dishonest at the most. It is one thing to say that we cannot be sure of what is authentic Sunnah. It is another to say that the sunnah does not hold the weight the Qur’an gives it.

    I’m not sure if that distinction makes sense, but I think that is the contention I have with Qur’anism.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #37 - May 05, 2014, 02:21 PM

    As I see what Cornflower worte. Basically, what she said. Grin
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #38 - May 05, 2014, 03:00 PM

    Cornflower, I totally agree: and we were definitely disliked across the board; from Sunnis for not doing it the way they did it, and by critics of Islam for being a harder target to pin Islam's offenses on. I was lucky enough that my white Western convert status was considered more of a credit to Islam by most Sunnis than a detriment because of my interpretation, so I rarely had any animosity, but the same could not be said for other Quranists I knew. It doesn't win you many friends.

    But now that I've strapped on the boots of the critic of Islam, whenever I get to a Quranist, it's almost like the Final Boss. Or like trying to grab a slimy, squirming fish. Grin Interestingly, because I logged many years as someone who argued from the Quranist perspective, I feel especially aware of the cracks in that armor, because we once agreed on the bottom line, and I was once playing defense. It wasn't always easy to stick with the Quran and feel morally correct. Sometimes it was impossible.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #39 - May 05, 2014, 03:02 PM

    Happymurtad,
    I really do understand what you're saying, but even today I'm not quite sure about the intellectual merit of orthodoxy. Although I knew it was not what the Muslim world was typically doing, we were of the position that people are often wrong, and that the interpretations and works of the in the early phases of the religion were not to be prized for their antiquity, especially not over the complete and perfect book. The heavy belief in the hadith seemed a product of its time, before the falsehoods in it were plainly obvious.

    For most Quranists, this is the predicament you're placed in: like Dr_sloth was saying, it does say to follow the prophet and the sunnah, there are verses that talk about the importance of this, but it does not say that Muslim and Bukhari had their act together. Follow the prophet, sure, and by going along that logical thread you can make the case that, therefore, all people of all time should follow the prophet, and that's often the core of the Sunni argument.

    However, you're a Muslim in the modern age, and you're looking at this package deal of rumors, and you know some of the hadith are demonstrably false. Some of them contradict each other and contradict the Quran. What Cornflower said about God preserving the religion so logically he'd preserve the hadith didn't fly for us, because, in order for that to be true, there couldn't be those one or two scientifically inaccurate hadith. So at this basic level, Quranists will be faced with this problem: either accept that the possibility, even if you consider it more remote or scripturally dishonest, that the verses about following the sunnah and the prophet were for the people of that time and not in reference to the hadith collection, or that the entire thing is a sham. The middle ground that is the Sunni position was simply impossible, not through the lens of classical Islamic education, but when placed against the indisputable truths, or even moral values, that came with recent times.

    And if you know that this one about conception, poison, whatever, is wrong, that's fine, ignore it, but how are you going to logically support that this one, that prescribes the death penalty to someone, is definitely reliable? How are you going to be sure something so severe has its place in law, when it has no greater evidence of credibility than the false ones? This is where those verses come in that say that the book is complete, perfect, legislation is for God alone, are you going to seek any other resources other than this, so on and so forth, and this is where the logic comes from.

    Now, if I had my way, the Quranist position wouldn't be that last stop, or the place to sit and feel better about yourself. I do think that, if you are going to try to be logical and honest, you should toss the entire thing, and I do consider my years as a Quranist as ones spent practicing intellectual dishonesty and cognitive dissonance. However, I feel the same way about my few years as a Sunni.

    And at the end of the day, many Quranists, whether they'll admit it to you or not, are afraid of facing someone well-versed in the Quran. It is not a good friend to have, it is not a good foundation, we all know that there are some pretty awful things contained between those covers. We just don't get confronted about it as often as others do about the evils of the hadith.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #40 - May 05, 2014, 03:13 PM

    But it's not only the ahadeeth that are contradictory, the Quran contradict itself as well. It is full of scientific inaccuracies just like the ahadeeth. Why dismiss one and not the other? I know the J&T show was way too long, I listened to it while doing other things so I almost could follow it to the end. But it's really interesting what the Salafi convert says about "reconciling". I remember going through this while studying, and to be honest it's so clear for anyone with a brain cell that this was something people came up with later on in order to make everything work. Problem is, this method is not only applied on the ahadeeth, but on the Quran as well...

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #41 - May 05, 2014, 03:17 PM

    But it's not only the ahadeeth that are contradictory, the Quran contradict itself as well. It is full of scientific inaccuracies just like the ahadeeth. Why dismiss one and not the other?.


    Of course. And I eventually accepted that. This is what is kind of frustrating about talking about this now: you're trying to compare and contrast the merits of two things that are pretty devoid of them.

    For the intellectual dishonesty to be found in Quranism, I would not agree that it is from the rejection of the Sunni interpretation. I would say that the intellectual dishonesty comes from hanging on to the Quran at all.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #42 - May 05, 2014, 03:20 PM

    ............... It is full of scientific inaccuracies just like the ahadeeth......................

    Before going to in the "Scientific inaccuracies of Quran"  first we need to find Science., THERE IS NO SCIENCE IN QURAN.. it is not science it is nonsense.,

    it is a book of its time written/put together by  multiple authors at different times,   very poorly written and poorly edited .. At the best one can say that it has some rhythmic Arabic poetry/sonnets .. Nothing more and nothing less..  

    Here I would  add that there is NO SCIENCE in any so called religious books/scriptures.... what all they have is  buzz words and faith heads and some fools consider them as Astrophysics, biophysics, geophysics and what not...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #43 - May 05, 2014, 03:34 PM

    Quote
    Now, if I had my way, the Quranist position wouldn't be that last stop, or the place to sit and feel better about yourself. I do think that, if you are going to try to be logical and honest, you should toss the entire thing, and I do consider my years as a Quranist as ones spent practicing intellectual dishonesty and cognitive dissonance. However, I feel the same way about my few years as a Sunni.


    That makes sense. And I love the fact that we can now have this debate for fun without any real stake in the outcome one way or the other. Grin

    I guess I do view the Qur’anist interpretation as an exercise in delaying the inevitable.  I’m not sure I understand the mindset of comfortably dismissing elements of the sunnah due to their unreliability and disputability while maintain the belief that the Qur’an, which was transmitted through very much the same means as the sunnah and also contains its fair share of absurdity, is a “perfect book.” I still think that the logical conclusion one must reach by following that train of thought must inevitably lead to the eventual scrapping of the two.

    I guess that’s how we both end up here. Grin

    Perhaps it’s the idea that Qur’anism somehow “solves the problem” and is thus put forward as some sort of progressive, acceptable response to traditional sunni Islam that annoys me a little.

    If the motive is to do away with some of the more absurd elements found in the ahadith, then I do understand the motive but I have to view it as remarkably dishonest. If the proposition is that “Qur’an only” is somehow a more scripturally sound position than depending upon the sunnah as support and exegesis of the Qur’an, then I think that claim simply does not stand up to scrutiny.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #44 - May 05, 2014, 03:39 PM

    But it's not only the ahadeeth that are contradictory, the Quran contradict itself as well. It is full of scientific inaccuracies just like the ahadeeth. Why dismiss one and not the other? I know the J&T show was way too long, I listened to it while doing other things so I almost could follow it to the end. But it's really interesting what the Salafi convert says about "reconciling". I remember going through this while studying, and to be honest it's so clear for anyone with a brain cell that this was something people came up with later on in order to make everything work. Problem is, this method is not only applied on the ahadeeth, but on the Quran as well...


    Yeah. What she said, again. Grin
    (Cornflower! Stop being more succinct and articulate than me! finmad )
    Grin


  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #45 - May 05, 2014, 03:45 PM

    That makes sense. And I love the fact that we can now have this debate for fun without any real stake in the outcome one way or the other. Grin


    That is a nice change! Grin

    Yes, I agree with everything you wrote here...I used to be of the position that Quranism was so harmless that it wasn't necessary to just do away with it all, but I have come to appreciate how just by throwing your support behind a religion in any way you lend strength to the problematic manifestations. I do have a real problem with Quranists who are only there to escape the immoral hadith, who followed Quranist logic only after they began to retreat, and who then promoted Islam as a whole as one that is totally peaceful and great. Even when I was a Quranist, that did seem purposefully dishonest, like our favorite dawah heroes.
    Yeah. What she said, again. Grin
    (Cornflower! Stop being more succinct and articulate than me! finmad )
    Grin

     Happyflower makes a great team!
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #46 - May 05, 2014, 03:54 PM

    Yeah. What she said, again. Grin
    (Cornflower! Stop being more succinct and articulate than me! finmad )
    Grin





    I have the gift of Mo Grin

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #47 - May 05, 2014, 04:16 PM

    You have all of the man’s virtues and none of his vices, I’m sure.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #48 - May 05, 2014, 04:44 PM

    My credentials as an “authority” on anything Islamic are steadily withering away to a state of apathy and boredom with the topic, honestly. Grin   

     

    I was bored with islamic stuff even when I was a muslim.

    As a young teen I always wondered if the quran had been written by such an omnipotent and all knowing deity why do the authors of novels I picked up at the library have better story telling skills than him. 


    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #49 - May 05, 2014, 04:58 PM

    But it's not only the ahadeeth that are contradictory, the Quran contradict itself as well. It is full of scientific inaccuracies just like the ahadeeth. Why dismiss one and not the other? I know the J&T show was way too long, I listened to it while doing other things so I almost could follow it to the end. But it's really interesting what the Salafi convert says about "reconciling". I remember going through this while studying, and to be honest it's so clear for anyone with a brain cell that this was something people came up with later on in order to make everything work. Problem is, this method is not only applied on the ahadeeth, but on the Quran as well...


    that really is devastating to the claims they make.

    Quran contradicts itself so much they had to invent a doctrine of abrogation to explain it.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #50 - May 05, 2014, 05:36 PM

    Happyflower makes a great team!


     Afro. I am shipping them if nobody minds grin12.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #51 - May 05, 2014, 05:38 PM

    Join the club! Cornflower is going to visit the states one day, Happymurtad is going to pick her up from the airport to show her around, and the rest will be the greatest murtad love story ever told!  dance
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #52 - May 05, 2014, 05:48 PM

    I imagine it happening something like this. We get in touch and plan to meet up during my US vacation, all under the pretense that I need a guide. The very instance our eyes meet each other the world stops. We embrace each other in a passionate kiss. The rest is history.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #53 - May 05, 2014, 05:49 PM

     popcorn
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #54 - May 05, 2014, 05:50 PM

    Can I be in charge of finding your wedding dress Cornflower *puppy eyes*?
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #55 - May 05, 2014, 05:55 PM

    HappyFlower is the best ship, it is known.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #56 - May 05, 2014, 06:02 PM

    As a fellow person in the states and a great Happyflower proponent, I should be invited to your wedding. I bring great wedding gifts. I will not get drunk and dance on the tables.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #57 - May 05, 2014, 06:05 PM

    Lua, we’d accept nothing less than you officiating the wedding.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #58 - May 05, 2014, 06:07 PM

     happydance!

    Cornflower, hurry up and get over here, already!
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #59 - May 05, 2014, 06:09 PM

    And that, my friends, is why I love the CEMB.
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