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 Topic: Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?

 (Read 43570 times)
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  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #60 - May 05, 2014, 06:17 PM
    I second that.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #61 - May 06, 2014, 12:29 AM
    found the thread atlast, congrats happyflower or Cornmurtard.. 

    The Hadith was my very reason for leaving Islam, i saw it as complete BS..
     
    Xooooooo
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #62 - May 06, 2014, 12:47 AM
    I second Cornmurtad, because honestly happyflower is the most puke inducing name for a ship ever.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #63 - May 06, 2014, 12:48 AM
    Happymurtad just doesn't want it to be Cornymurtad. Cheesy
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #64 - May 06, 2014, 01:21 AM
    Corntad?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #65 - May 06, 2014, 01:21 AM
    "That's so Corntad."
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #66 - May 06, 2014, 01:26 AM
    Happycorn?
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #67 - May 06, 2014, 01:27 AM
    Doesn't have the same ring to it.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #68 - May 06, 2014, 01:42 AM
    I liked Happyflower, but I also like asbie, so which ever. Grin A rose by any other name, yadda yadda.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #69 - May 06, 2014, 03:15 AM
    Happyflower is just so cute and perfect and shit.

    At the end of the day its just some made up name for some made up relationship, so choose whichever one makes you happy I guess.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #70 - May 06, 2014, 03:16 AM
    Eh, don't want to make you sick. Grin
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #71 - May 06, 2014, 03:18 AM
    Thank you for your concern.  Smiley
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #72 - May 06, 2014, 05:15 AM
    I vote HappyFlower.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #73 - May 06, 2014, 05:41 AM
    I propose that Happyflower should be the name of their girl.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #74 - May 23, 2014, 05:23 PM
    Quote from: lua on May 05, 2014, 01:31 PM
    Yeezevee, you are the greatest!  happydance I will have to read this when the week is over; we have to organize and present our research findings at a neighboring university this week...

    Now that I've stepped outside of Islam, I have such mixed feelings about it. Since the telephone game is nonsense and some of the hadith are undeniably scientifically false, I do still consider Quranism to be the route I'd take again and again if I were back in that situation where, for some reason, something about the theology seemed worth saving. Now, although I do not agree (yet! I may be back in a week after the book) that there are ever any checkmate moments in the Quran or logic you can derive from it that makes Quranism an invalid interpretation of the religion, I do have extremely conflicting feelings on it now from a personal stance.

    On one hand, I absolutely hate arguing with Quranists now. They drive me crazy. Is it because I remember their arguments so well, or that I see my old self in them? Or is it just that Quranists tend to be the smug and modern sort? Come to think of it, most of the outspoken Muslim feminists I know are also Quranists. Is it because I want all Muslims of all divisions to have to look plainly and head on at the terrible stuff that comes out of the religion without distancing themselves from it? Very probably.

    However, if you can convince someone of it, it is a great way to get a strict Sunni to calm the fuck down. I have known people who began to tilt in this direction who became far better people. And of course they did, they got to get to a position where it was somewhat easier to run from the uglier things in Islam, although, in my opinion, pretty much everything awful can be traced back to an interpretation of the Quran anyway. And for some people, Quranism was that final stop before apostasy, especially if they got there the way I did, by slowly beginning to see more and more of the theology as illogical. But for other people, it is just a safer place to hide and stay indefinitely.  wacko


    There are verses in the Qur'aan that are also undeniably and scientifically false, such as the description of the earth being created before the heavens. Ofcourse, people can twist and re-interpret the meanings of words and eventually find an escape route, but they can do the same with the Hadith.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #75 - May 23, 2014, 05:27 PM
    ^ I actually found some of the hadith to be far more blatantly false than errors in the Quran, or, at least, they were easier to demonstrate to your average person than the ones in the Quran. If I argued the error that you mentioned to a Muslim, I'd fully expect a, "Well, how do you know it wasn't first?! Were you there?" response, while it is easier for me to point out the problems with drinking camel urine or using incense and cumin to cure diseases.

    That may have just been my experience, though?
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #76 - May 23, 2014, 05:37 PM
    I wouldn't expect that sort of reponse since the Qur'aan does, and quite unequivocally, states that it was created before the heavens. However, I would expect them to twist the meaning of the word "thumma" in that verse in Surah Fussilat, and claim that it means something else in that context. Regardless, the interesting thing about the kinds of ahadith that consist of Mohammed giving opinions about medicinal/worldly matters is that they do not have to be correct. There is a specific Hadith where Mo makes an error in determining the cause of a Muslim's stomach pain, and then describes how he is just a man and that he can easily make mistakes in worldly matters. His opinions are just personal opinions that anyone can discard if they choose to unless, of course, it is a religious matter.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #77 - May 23, 2014, 05:39 PM
    Here is one version of it..if anyone's interested:

    Hadîth #2363 – narrated from Anas:
    The Prophet (peace be upon him) passed by some people who were busy with pollination and said: “If they would not do this, then it would still come out right.”
     
    The date crop that resulted was of a very poor quality.

    Then he passed by them and asked: “What is with your date palms?”

    They said: “You had told us such-and-such…”

    He said: “You know best the affairs of your worldly life.”
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #78 - May 23, 2014, 05:40 PM
    I guess it was pollination and not stomach pain. My apologies!
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #79 - May 23, 2014, 05:44 PM
    ^ I mean, it would be hard to show the average Muslim why the universe was definitely created before Earth. I get responses like that alllll the time. How do I know that the Earth is this old? Was I there? How do I know that humans evolved? Was I there? How do I know that shooting stars aren't anti-demon missiles?  Roll Eyes

    I try to bring, you know, physics and science into it, but scientists aren't uncommonly dismissed in my experience as people who are just guessing/atheists with agendas. But it's easier to trip up a Muslim by offering him some camel urine to drink or fly wings in his soup, or asking why his local hospitals don't replace all of their medicine and equipment with vats of cumin.

    Maybe I'm just not convincing when I speak about space, if that's not your experience too.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #80 - May 23, 2014, 05:46 PM
    Oh, I see your point now. Well, I am quite surprised that people are more willing to change the science than to try to find an interpretation of the Qur'aan that fits in with the science. It comes down to experience I presume  Smiley
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #81 - May 23, 2014, 05:46 PM
    Personally, I find that hadith to be very interesting. How is the pollination of date trees any different of a "wordly matter" than medicinal advice about drinking camel piss or finding "cure for everything" in habbatul-barakah? It's not different. However, in the pollination affair, Mo fucked up. When it came to all the other examples, he was either right, or no one was there to challenge him to prove him wrong. This really shows that there was never any divine guidance, and it undermines the whole "follow your prophet" doctrine there is in mainstream Islam, because he really was just a man proven by the fact that he was obviously wrong in matters he taught to his followers.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #82 - May 23, 2014, 05:50 PM
    Yes, exactly. That was my point. If camel urine does not cure a person, it honestly just doesn't matter nor does it hurt the reputation of the ahadith.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #83 - May 23, 2014, 05:51 PM
    Quote from: hocuspocus on May 23, 2014, 05:46 PM
    Well, I am quite surprised that people are more willing to change the science than to try to find an interpretation of the Qur'aan that fits in with the science.


    I was always trying to twist the Quran to make it fit with science, since, to me, the science was not negotiable. But that is pretty hard, and most people are aware that even the most convincing arguments to make them compatible are a stretch at best, so I guess that might be part of it?
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #84 - May 23, 2014, 05:57 PM
    Yes, I guess. It depends on how much support there is for a specific, falsifiable idea in the Qur'aan. To me, there are many, many indicators that quite clearly show that evolution cannot co-exist with what is mentioned in the Qur'aan, and what is mentioned even more explicitly in the Ahadith. Hence, it is common to note how the majority tends to argue against the science. In general though, atleast in my experience, people try to fit the verses with the science.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #85 - May 23, 2014, 05:58 PM
    Quote from: hocuspocus on May 23, 2014, 05:50 PM
    Yes, exactly. That was my point. If camel urine does not cure a person, it honestly just doesn't matter nor does it hurt the reputation of the ahadith.


    Was the urine supposed to be a cure for something? I totally forget, I just remember Mohammed suggesting someone drink some milk and urine.

    But I guess I disagree with you here. If there are some hadith that are false, I think the whole collection's integrity comes into question, since they are all basically the same monster. I don't understand how someone can pick out some quotes from Bukhari and say they are definitely totally correct mashallah, but okay, maybe all the ones about urine aren't, when they both have the same level of "proof" associated with them. That's why you'll find so many Muslims who refuse to consider that a hadith could be scientifically inaccurate, because there is always this sense that Islam is a house of cards, and you ought not to try removing any lest it all come down.

    Edit: I'm not sure if I envy you or not for running into Muslims more inclined to believe the science and make accommodations for it. On one hand, it's great that they accept scientific evidence, but on the other hand, I remember how annoying I was as an apologist about science. Grin
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #86 - May 23, 2014, 06:06 PM
    Not necessarily. Just to clarify (although I am sure you already know this), we are not discussing about whether or not these kinds of Hadith are authentic, as in whether or not Mohammed actually said what he said. We are discussing the claim written in the Hadith itself. Assuming that the Hadith is authentic, Mohammed does not have to be correct in his opinions on medicinal matters, since it is worldly and by definition not a religious matter. Hence, I don't understand how the collection's integrity comes into question because of the unscientific nature of a few Hadith. Of course, if a similar matter was written in the Qur'aan, since it is after all considered to be the perfect word of God, then that would be a different story.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #87 - May 23, 2014, 06:11 PM
    Also, I understand how this implies that if Muhammad is wrong, he is potentially costing the lives of many of his followers. Crazy? I know Cheesy However, as long as he doesn't claim to be perfect in worldy matters, then there is no contradiction.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #88 - May 23, 2014, 06:14 PM
    ^ I guess we really must have run into totally different kinds of Muslims. Grin The Sunni ones I know consider the claims in the hadith to be completely solid and factual, perhaps about worldly matters but rightfully applicable to worldly matters; otherwise, what's the point of integrating them into your life and law?

    The value of the hadith for these people doesn't come from it just being cool things Mohammed had an opinion about, but rather the assumption that Mohammed was guided and infallible and that the hadith contain wisdom about how to live your life, conduct your law, and practice Islam.

    The hadith about killing homosexuals isn't perceived to be a result of Mohammed really not liking the gays on a personal level, but something that is a true and appropriate thing that he as a prophet with his wisdom and intimate relationship with God would know is correct, and therefore it's worked into the practice. If the same guy is saying that the urine of a female contains flesh while the urine of a male is cleaner, or if his views on conception or embryology are proven false, it threatens the integrity of everything else he said in the same collection, even if the more religious points are inherently unfalsifiable.
  • Why Should the Muslims Not Reject the Ahadith?
     Reply #89 - May 23, 2014, 06:15 PM
    I was thinking about this today, here is an argument why one cannot reject the hadiths and Sirat:

    How do we know that the Quran is from Muhammad and not any other Arab(s) of the 7th Century? The reason we know is because in the hadiths it says "so and so said to so and so that they witnessed Muhammad revealing Surah 4, verse 4, etc. etc."

    So without the hadiths, we cannot even know where the Quran came from. For all we know it could have been written by Abu Bakr or some later Caliph.

    I am sure that this would not persuade many Muslims as they accept that the Quran is from Allah via Muhammad based on faith rather than evidence anyway. But it should at least leave them stumped for an answer.
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