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 Topic: Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?

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  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     OP - May 05, 2014, 05:40 PM
    One thing that I have wondered about Muhammad was whether he himself genuinely believed in Islam. I don't think he was lying about his experience in the cave (most likely a hallucination), but on the other hand we have incidents in which Mo makes up quran verses for his own convenience, such as this one:
    Quote
    Quran 33:53 O believers, enter not the houses of the Prophet, except leave is given you for a meal, without watching for its hour. But when you are invited, then enter; and when you have had the meal, disperse, neither lingering for idle talk; that is hurtful to the Prophet, and he is ashamed before you; but God is not ashamed before the truth. And when you ask his wives for any object, ask them from behind a curtain; that is cleaner for your hearts and theirs. It is not for you to hurt God's Messenger, neither to marry his wives after him, ever; surely that would be, in God's sight, a monstrous thing.


    The above verse is quite obviously made up for Mo's ends rather than ''God's'' which would imply that if he was willing to falsify verses, his belief was probably not sincere.
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #1 - May 05, 2014, 05:45 PM
    He partly believed in it and partly didn't. The ahadith says that he was an ardent worshipper, but when it comes to his convenience he bend the rules for himself. If we assume that he was narcissistic and delusional he did believe in the faith of Islam ardently. After all it's his religion.
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #2 - May 05, 2014, 05:53 PM
    So he believed, but was willing to bend the rules. Perhaps being the 'messenger of God' brought some special privileges?
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #3 - May 05, 2014, 05:54 PM
    Like any other sect and cult leader, do they believe in their own shit? Some are delusional, others invent lies but which they at some point (perhaps at the moment the lie is invented, or later on) start wholeheartedly to believe in.  Did Elijah Muhammad believe in his preaching, did Joseph Smith believe in himself and his story?
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #4 - May 05, 2014, 05:56 PM
    Yes it did. There is a hadith that says that the prophets were allowed to break their fast early. There is a verse in the Quran that says that a woman's fornication have to be proved by four witnesses. I think it came because of the scandal about Aisha (his favourite wife).
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #5 - May 05, 2014, 06:02 PM
    My far-fetched hypothesis is that perhaps in another 'revelation' (read: Hallucination) Mo was told he had the right to make up his own verses to suit his needs.
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #6 - May 05, 2014, 07:48 PM
    I think he may have believed some of his visions. The descriptions given of his experience pretty much show what we currently know to be symptoms of epilepsy, so I wouldn't argue he never had genuine visions. However, it's quite clear to me that as he became more comfortable in his role as a prophet and warlord, he made up "messages" that would benefit him in a number of ways including not losing face.

    My thoughts on the matter.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #7 - May 06, 2014, 05:53 AM
    I've always believed he was epileptic.
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #8 - May 06, 2014, 06:21 AM
    VS Ramachandran's book Phantom and the Brain gives a brilliant scientific explanation for the causal link between brain disorders such as epilepsy and the disposition for religion, plus everything else from what I remember. It is a highly readable book.

    Next time a Mormon or Jehovah witness rings your bell, engage them in conversation and ask if they are epileptic, I have, and the number is surprisingly high.
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #9 - May 06, 2014, 12:37 PM
    Interesting. By surprisingly high, can you give an estimate ie out of ten?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #10 - May 06, 2014, 01:48 PM
     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4Arlam70bI


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2U_ZS7mQ88
    Jason Padgett Suffered Profound Concussion That Made Him A Savant
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #11 - July 20, 2014, 04:28 AM
    Standard Psychopathy.
    Sociopaths typically believe their own lies.

    It may sound weird to a sane person. I mean, how can you truely believe something you also know you made up?.....well, if you were a psychopath you genuinely could.
    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #12 - July 20, 2014, 04:42 AM
    I don't know too much on the topic but from what I've read, I believe that with a combination of his interest in monotheism(from what I understood he and Khadijah apostated from their polytheism beliefs; which ironically enough didn't seem to raise any issues with Kuraish until Muhammad kept preaching Islam around their prayer places) from reading(?) the bible and the Torah  and one day after his cave meditation sessions he came back to Khadijah freaking out being possessed only to be assured by her that he's a prophet(wtf Khadjiah), and even reassured by someone Khadijah knew(after a few persuasive words from her). From the sounds of it all, I think it might've been a mix of epilepsy episodes and some sort of imaginary friend; which would make sense as to why Gabriel always seemed to send Muhammad's own words to him.

    Sources:
    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Khadijah_bint_Khuwaylid
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_friend
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epilepsy
    أشهد أن لا إله
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #13 - July 20, 2014, 07:39 AM
    interesting topic
    the root of it all

    discredit mo discredit islam

    i just cant believe how big islam got

    and its still here

    the phobia of hell really sells this religion

    i still have that phobia, and it will probably take a while until it leaves me (even though the concept of hell is repugnant to begin with)

    eternity in hell for a finite crime and what crime the crime of disbelief

    its laughable and stupid
    Life is like a box of chocolates, shut the fuck up and eat them!
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #14 - July 20, 2014, 09:36 AM
    Tom Holland in Persian Fire argues - I think correctly - that Darius deliberately reinvented Ahura Mazda for his own political ends.

    Mo - if he existed - looks like a copycat.

    I would strongly go with reinventing a god for political reasons - and would love to see formally published work proposing that.

    Art of War 101.
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #15 - July 20, 2014, 10:32 AM
    Quote from: Navtheshocker on July 20, 2014, 07:39 AM
    interesting topic
    the root of it all

    discredit mo discredit islam

    i just cant believe how big islam got......................

    Hello Navtheshocker., greetings and my good wishes to you., Your point of discrediting Muhammad serves the purpose of enraging Muslim folks  but it doesn't really discredit Islam., To me frankly speaking "Muhammad" of Islam  a story character created by early Muslim charlatans along with warlords of Arabia.. People do good things..people do bad things and those who believe in that super duper Allah/ god whatever do many delusional and outrageous  things.,  But that is not what really  what discredits Islam., IT IS ACTUALLY QURAN in combination with Islamic history, Islamic stories and worse is authorities in Islam not allowing people to question these stories with-in Islam and outside of Islam .. that made it worse for Islam unlike other religions and their stories..

    and welcome to CEMB...

    with best regards
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #16 - July 20, 2014, 10:51 AM
    upon reflection i think your right

    mo can be defended due to weak hadith conjecture etc

    the quran is the cream of the crop

    now where to begin

    the science has already been debunked ie cum coming from the ribs or something whereas we know it come from the balls lol

    the violent verses again can be defended by historical context etc

    now the so called language miracle of the quran is something every muslim holds on to

    hard one to debunk as neither the sceptics or the believers know quranic language as a first language

    hmm a hard barrier to cross for the common man me think
    Life is like a box of chocolates, shut the fuck up and eat them!
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #17 - August 01, 2014, 06:38 PM
    Quote
    Quran 33:53 O believers, enter not the houses of the Prophet, except leave is given you for a meal, without watching for its hour. But when you are invited, then enter; and when you have had the meal, disperse, neither lingering for idle talk; that is hurtful to the Prophet, and he is ashamed before you; but God is not ashamed before the truth. And when you ask his wives for any object, ask them from behind a curtain; that is cleaner for your hearts and theirs. It is not for you to hurt God's Messenger, neither to marry his wives after him, ever; surely that would be, in God's sight, a monstrous thing.


    Is it me or did anyone else also notice the sneaky tactic of lumping a significant bombshell of a commandment (that his wives cannot remarry) with a rather benign one (that we shouldn't waste his time - big deal)..
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #18 - August 01, 2014, 07:33 PM
    Quote from: NeoApostate on August 01, 2014, 06:38 PM
    Quote
    Quran 33:53 O believers, enter not the houses of the Prophet, except leave is given you for a meal, without watching for its hour. But when you are invited, then enter; and when you have had the meal, disperse, neither lingering for idle talk; that is hurtful to the Prophet, and he is ashamed before you; but God is not ashamed before the truth. And when you ask his wives for any object, ask them from behind a curtain; that is cleaner for your hearts and theirs. It is not for you to hurt God's Messenger, neither to marry his wives after him, ever; surely that would be, in God's sight, a monstrous thing.

    Is it me or did anyone else also notice the sneaky tactic of lumping a significant bombshell of a commandment (that his wives cannot remarry) with a rather benign one (that we shouldn't waste his time - big deal)..


    Hah I remember reading about that verse, and it was 'revealed' right after Mo got mad jelly because some of the sahaba he invited over stayed around in his house talking with his wives even after he got up.
    أشهد أن لا إله
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #19 - August 01, 2014, 09:28 PM
    Quote from: Cornflower on May 05, 2014, 05:54 PM
    Like any other sect and cult leader, do they believe in their own shit? Some are delusional, others invent lies but which they at some point (perhaps at the moment the lie is invented, or later on) start wholeheartedly to believe in.  Did Elijah Muhammad believe in his preaching, did Joseph Smith believe in himself and his story?


    Precisely
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #20 - August 01, 2014, 10:11 PM
    I have said this before when this question periodically gets asked, that I believe Muhammad believed in what he said. He is not the first person to believe God has spoken to him and he won't be the last.

    And if the two scenes below from Monty Python teach us anything - and let's face it, the zany off-beat humour of a madcap group of Ox-bridge graduates is the most reliable source of historical information - then it teaches us that there were a hell of a lot of Prophets, Seers & Sages back then. Most never got past the upturned crate in downtown Jerusalem, Mecca or New Delhi - but Muhammad hit the jackpot. Had Musaylama's rebellion won, then we would be asking this question about him, not Muhammad.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmyuE0NpNgE

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9czBBKof7Yo
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #21 - August 01, 2014, 10:16 PM
    Let's face it, though. Musaylama would have been a much cooler prophet. Grin
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #22 - August 01, 2014, 11:08 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on August 01, 2014, 10:16 PM
    Let's face it, though. Musaylama would have been a much cooler prophet. Grin


    They all turn bad in the end. Remember that image of Gaddafi you painted, then times it by 10.

    Direct line to God + ignorant people + sycophants = Bad news!
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #23 - August 01, 2014, 11:15 PM
    Touche. Very fair point. I'm mainly impressed by his surahs allowing sex and alcohol, I suppose. cool2
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #24 - August 01, 2014, 11:20 PM
    They would have been abrogated later  grin12
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #25 - August 01, 2014, 11:25 PM
     Cheesy
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #26 - August 01, 2014, 11:29 PM
    Though you are entirely correct. The verses of the Quran that allowed alcohol and the sunnah that allowed mut'ah were both abrogated as Muhammad needed to exercise more control. People out drinking and having sex now aren't likely to want to die only for a chance to drink and have sex later.
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #27 - August 01, 2014, 11:52 PM
    My conjecture is that he militantly believed in torah inspired monotheism and played the part of a prophet for what he perceived to be the greater good. Islam especially when looking at the Qur'an is a very reactionary religion. Almost all of the stories and statements are overly obsessive on polytheism and how bad it is. Muhammad's personal disgust for polytheism and some ill conceived belief that god wanted it destroyed I believe are the main motivators for why islam exists.

    So did he believe his part was genuine or not?

    Maybe he had some experience in a cave that acted as a tipping point, maybe he didn't and only after much contemplation decided he was going to do the work of god, it's not possible to know for sure.

    I don't think he was so deluded that he thought an angel was visiting him to give him more lines out of gods poetry slams. I think it's more a case of he viewed his compositions (IE quran verses) as rubber stamped by god inspiring in him thoughts and ideas to be used as a tool akin to the bible.

    In short, he knew he was doing some bullshit but probably thought god wanted and supported his conducts to combat  the 'evils' of muhammads society.
  • Did Muhammad genuinely believe what he preached?
     Reply #28 - August 02, 2014, 12:14 AM
    Divine inspiration such as many of the Gospel writers, forgeries and external texts have been attitude to.
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