I found a more level headed and patient Muslim; even though no specific answer was reached, the chat was a lot more fruitful
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Free Will, sura 81:29
Muslim2 has joined the chat.
Muslim2 (01:33:25) : welcome to xxx
Peace (01:34:21) : Thank you. I was just on here with another person named Aziz who wasted some 30 minutes merely dodging around and distracting away from my questions
Peace (01:34:39) : I don't want a repetition of that
Muslim2 (01:35:00) : no problem
Muslim2 (01:35:04) : just one question from here
Muslim2 (01:35:09) : what is your religion?
Peace (01:35:59) : I am a christian who has been questioning Trinity, divinity of Jesus etc. Which is how I started learning about Islam and decided to read the Quran
Muslim2 (01:36:27) : ok
Muslim2 (01:36:35) : so you are trying to understand the Quran
Peace (01:36:42) : Yes
Muslim2 (01:36:58) : ok let me see the verse, one minute please
Muslim2 (01:37:50) : the will of God?
Peace (01:38:32) : My question is this
Peace (01:39:10) : Reading through the Quran, the impression I received was that we have free will
Peace (01:39:28) : But then in verse 81:27-29
Peace (01:39:50) : It basically says, what we WILL is actually willed by Allah
Peace (01:40:09) : Specifically it says, "And you do not will except that Allah wills
"
Peace (01:40:37) : SO my question is, How can a human have free will if can only will what Allah wills
Muslim2 (01:40:55) : Muslims believe in Al-Qadar, which is Divine Predestination, but this belief in Divine Predestination does not mean that human beings do not have freewill. Rather, Muslims believe that God has given human beings freewill. This means that they can choose right or wrong and that they are responsible for their choices. You have to understand such free will as a relative free will, while God's will is absolute.
Peace (01:41:29) : ok
Peace (01:41:58) : I don't really follow how we can have free will if everything has been predestined
Peace (01:42:25) : or in the case of 81:29, it is also specially saying I only WILL as Allah wills
Peace (01:42:37) : so I can only choose as Allah chooses.
Peace (01:42:42) : THis is my understanding
Peace (01:42:49) : where have I gone wrong?
Muslim2 (01:43:01) : you are misunderstanding predestination, with all due respect, as a precommandment of God
Peace (01:43:15) : ok
Muslim2 (01:43:20) : for example
Peace (01:43:23) : could you expand a bit
Muslim2 (01:43:59) : when you see that God wants his servant to do what is right and to forbid evil, how do you call this if not the will of God?
Peace (01:44:35) : That is more like a commandment
Muslim2 (01:44:40) : now, the servant can choose to do that and please God or he can choose to disobey, right?
Peace (01:44:51) : yes
Muslim2 (01:45:30) : this is the evident fact in our own eyes, this is what we see around us
Muslim2 (01:45:50) : however, God tells us that nothing can happen outside of His will
Muslim2 (01:46:03) : so we have a free will, but limited, relative
Muslim2 (01:46:55) : for instance, I want fly without a plane or device, that is my will, however my physics do not allow me to do that
Peace (01:47:02) : sorry but going back to 81:29, it seems like it saying I CANNOT even choose or will except as Allah chooses or wills
Muslim2 (01:47:04) : so my will is limited, relative
Peace (01:47:08) : That is my confusion
Muslim2 (01:47:08) : is it clearer now?
Muslim2 (01:47:34) : yes and God says that He commands you to do good
Peace (01:47:39) : inability to fly is a physical restriction
Muslim2 (01:47:57) : but we see that we humans do not obey most of the time
Muslim2 (01:48:18) : if God didn't allow this to happen then God would not be Almighy
Muslim2 (01:48:33) : therefor God would not be the deity!
Peace (01:48:47) : Let me ask you with an example
Muslim2 (01:48:51) : go on
Peace (01:49:46) : Sura 81:27-29 says "[Quran] is not except a reminder to the worlds. For whoever wills among you to take a right course. AND YOU DO NOT WILL EXCEPT AS ALLAH WILLS"
Peace (01:50:13) : Suppose I will to be a Muslim. But Allah has NOT willed me to be a Muslim
Muslim2 (01:50:29) : then you will not be a Muslim
Peace (01:50:40) : Can I then will to be a Muslim even though Allah has willed the opposite?
Peace (01:50:49) : Then I don;t have actual free will
Peace (01:51:12) : the free will would merely be an illusion whereby I am only willing what Allah wills I will
Peace (01:51:22) : hope you follow my question
Muslim2 (01:51:27) : yes
Muslim2 (01:51:38) : this is an old debate in teology
Peace (01:51:50) : I am new to it
Muslim2 (01:51:56) : there is a group in Islam that fell in the traps of this thinking
Peace (01:52:04) : Ill be to refer to any books if you know of any
Peace (01:52:14) : happy*
Muslim2 (01:52:22) : they became a sect and ended up out of the pale of Islam syaing foolish things about God
Peace (01:52:24) : on the topic of this verse
Peace (01:53:01) : but are you then agreeing we don't have actual free will?
Muslim2 (01:53:03) : I would not throw you in a scientific book without a teacher dear
Muslim2 (01:53:27) : we have free will but limited
Muslim2 (01:53:33) : relative
Muslim2 (01:53:53) : I will give you an example
Peace (01:53:56) : I meant any kind of book, introductory even, explaining this confusion
Muslim2 (01:54:29) : you are in one of the thoughest topics and you are fixed on it
Muslim2 (01:54:39) : I suggest you find a teacher
Muslim2 (01:54:46) : really
Muslim2 (01:54:55) : so let me go on
Peace (01:54:59) : ok
Muslim2 (01:55:39) : there is an apple attached to a tree, what happens when it separates from the tree?
Peace (01:55:55) : it falls
Muslim2 (01:56:11) : that is relative or absolute fact?
Peace (01:56:49) : I guess it is relative to the earth
Muslim2 (01:56:56) : exactly
Muslim2 (01:57:11) : when we put it in outer space there is no fall
Muslim2 (01:57:17) : so in earth we say it falls
Muslim2 (01:57:26) : in space such concept doesnt exist
Peace (01:57:34) : ok
Muslim2 (01:57:48) : when we talk about the predestination
Muslim2 (01:58:15) : we are limited in our understading
Muslim2 (01:58:32) : because we are relative creatures
Muslim2 (01:58:40) : while God is absolute
Peace (01:58:49) : ok
Muslim2 (01:59:03) : just let me tell you a constant case
Muslim2 (01:59:41) : those scientists and mathematicians who have worked hard to unveil the concept of infinite, have gone mad.
Muslim2 (02:00:07) : you are trying to tell me that free will means infinite free will
Muslim2 (02:00:16) : we are not infinite creatures
Peace (02:00:31) : I don't that is what I am saying
Peace (02:00:35) : think*
Muslim2 (02:01:03) : well, that is the reading I am doing from you, please tell me i I am wrong
Muslim2 (02:01:11) : if*
Peace (02:01:43) : Correct me if I am wrong, I understand your point to be that we do not have absolute free will; that is, we are not free to do absolutely anyting
Peace (02:01:53) : That is only for God
Muslim2 (02:02:21) : we are free to do many things, not all that we want though.
Peace (02:02:32) : Yes I accept that
Peace (02:02:40) : We do not have absolute free will.
Muslim2 (02:02:43) : limited free will
Peace (02:03:35) : But Do you agree that our choices in life to decide what to eat, wear etc and other simple cases are a product of our free will?
Muslim2 (02:04:10) : I agree relatively
Muslim2 (02:04:38) : sometimes I want to eat something, but I can't get it
Peace (02:05:13) : It seems that you are often referring to physical restrictions which I also accept
Peace (02:05:16) : but for instance
Peace (02:05:46) : Let's say I help a person by giving him money, was my will to do that deed my own free will?
Muslim2 (02:06:29) : weren't it your free will, then it would not count for you as a good deed
Peace (02:07:41) : So when Allah says , "And you do not will except that Allah wills", doesn't that mean my will to do that deed was actually Allah's will?
Peace (02:07:50) : the same can be asked of a bad deed as well
Muslim2 (02:08:07) : many scholars interprete this exactly as brother Aziz told you
Muslim2 (02:08:18) : "it means the knowledge of God"
Peace (02:08:52) : Will and Knowledge seems distinct areas to me
Muslim2 (02:09:22) : literalism is not wise
Peace (02:09:34) : Okay.
Peace (02:10:10) : I'd like to read up on the topic. Can you suggest any reading material, that is tailored for non-Muslims to understand?
Muslim2 (02:10:28) : I'll try to find something
...
Muslim2 (02:30:51) : this knowledge you have will help you to understand the divine decree and to overcome Satan's whisper about free will
Peace (02:31:28) : I don't know what to say
Peace (02:31:57) : I am a bit offended that you think my earnest questions are satanic
Muslim2 (02:32:20) : misconception here
Muslim2 (02:32:31) : your question is 100% valid and human
Peace (02:32:37) : ok
Muslim2 (02:33:39) : but I perceive certain intrnaquility in you, a typicall whisper from Satan, who whispers to every believer in God
Peace (02:34:53) : Well I had not come across this issue in my Christian upbringing, but I also have not read the entire bible.
Peace (02:35:10) : I had assumed Islam would have the same view regarding free will
Muslim2 (02:35:28) : that would make not Almighty
Muslim2 (02:35:41) : as I am telling this sect arised within Muslims
Peace (02:35:44) : But reading the verse, it sounded like there wasn't free will but I wanted to what Muslim theologians had to say about it
Muslim2 (02:35:56) : they wanted to say that God doesn't create evil
Muslim2 (02:36:15) : which conflicts with the attribute of God: the Creator
Peace (02:36:53) : I will have to think about these issues more deeply
Peace (02:37:07) : I will look forward to your email
Muslim2 (02:37:14) : may I suggest another approach?
Peace (02:37:21) : yes
Muslim2 (02:38:23) : instead of starting with thoughts, start saying, in the name of God, then ask God sincerely for understanding, then go ahead to reflect upon His signs, wherever you can perceive them
Peace (02:38:38) : yes
Peace (02:38:47) : okay
Muslim2 (02:39:07) : want me to finish the story of Moses?
Peace (02:39:30) : Okay, I will have to leave after than
Peace (02:39:33) : that*
Muslim2 (02:39:53) : it is ok I don't want to make you late
Muslim2 (02:40:05) : I'll send it to you by email
Peace (02:40:15) : okay thank you very much
Muslim2 (02:40:26) : and you for your patience with us
Peace (02:40:34) : I look forward to it
Peace (02:40:56) : Thank you for actually taking the time to understand the question unlike the previous person
Peace (02:41:01) : I really appreciate it
Peace (02:41:07) : God Bless you
Muslim2 (02:41:14) : amin, you too
Peace (02:41:27) : Take care and bye
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Topic: Free Will