If quran literary form is a miracle

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- LordZeus
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If quran literary form is a miracle
OP - June 07, 2014, 08:52 AM

Hi, I'm new here,
Muslims said Quran itself is the proof of prophethood of Muhammad since it's literary form is miraculous.
But the problem is:
1) If you don't know Arabic then there's no way for you to know that the literary form of Quran is miraculous
2) If you don't know it is miraculous then it defeats the purpose of a miracle doesn't it? So, why Allah bothers to produce such miracle that ONLY SOME people can see it? It's like showing a pile of gold to a blind man to proof that you are rich.

What would Muslims respond to this?
- Quod Sum Eris
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Reply #1 - June 07, 2014, 10:57 AM

In my experience the response is usually a few random Arabic words and nonsense such as to ask you if an umbrella can create itself. Either that or "Allah knows best".

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #2 - June 07, 2014, 11:41 AM

So no valid and sound respond then?
- dr_sloth
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Reply #3 - June 07, 2014, 11:49 AM

Quote from: LordZeus on June 07, 2014, 08:52 AM
What would Muslims respond to this?

They will ask how you know your mother is your mother, or how you know anything from science, or how you know whether or not China exists. The point that they are driving at is that many of our beliefs are arrived at by accepting the testimony of others, and the quran's miracle is no different. If you haven't done the scientific experiments yourself, then you are simply taking the testimony of the scientists who have done.
Tzortzis and his fans argue that we can appreciate the 'miracle' of the quran without knowing Arabic by simply taking the word of people who do. This process is given the name 'rational deduction' by the apologists.
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Reply #4 - June 07, 2014, 12:29 PM

Can your mother give birth to herself? Can this phone create itself? Then how could the universe create itself? The quran is a pretty book. Therefore, allah exists.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #5 - June 07, 2014, 12:31 PM

Quote from: dr_sloth on June 07, 2014, 11:49 AM
They will ask how you know your mother is your mother, or how you know anything from science, or how you know whether or not China exists. The point that they are driving at is that many of our beliefs are arrived at by accepting the testimony of others, and the quran's miracle is no different. If you haven't done the scientific experiments yourself, then you are simply taking the testimony of the scientists who have done.
Tzortzis and his fans argue that we can appreciate the 'miracle' of the quran without knowing Arabic by simply taking the word of people who do. This process is given the name 'rational deduction' by the apologists.

I know because that's what people told me. But that doesn't mean I believe that my grandmother or what science told me is true. If I want to know the truth, which for the examples that you gave doesn't really matter to me, I would have to find the evidence for them. Plus real scientist don't take testimony as true. Other scientist would repeat the experiment to verify the result.

For taking testimony of the miraculous nature to be true, it is simply an act of faith. Plus, does Allah relies on the Arabic speakers to tell that his Quran is a miracle? Allah can't make it obvious to everyone? Really?
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Reply #6 - June 07, 2014, 12:41 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on June 07, 2014, 12:29 PM
Can your mother give birth to herself? Can this phone create itself? Then how could the universe create itself? The quran is a pretty book. Therefore, allah exists.

No, No, I don't know anything about the creation of universe, beauty is subjective.
What?! How do you reach to that conclusion?!!

Imagine this conversation occurs.
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Reply #7 - June 07, 2014, 12:43 PM

It does occur. They actually post it on youtube.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #8 - June 07, 2014, 12:44 PM

Would you mind introducing yourself? It's custom for new members. You can start a new topic here.

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?board=2.0

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #9 - June 07, 2014, 12:55 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on June 07, 2014, 12:44 PM
Would you mind introducing yourself? It's custom for new members. You can start a new topic here.

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?board=2.0

I would love to introduce myself, but I'm afraid by doing so I would reveal too much information about myself that might harm me. Anyway, I will introduce myself without exposing so much information about myself.
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Reply #10 - June 07, 2014, 12:56 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on June 07, 2014, 12:43 PM
It does occur. They actually post it on youtube.

Really? Do you have link for that?
- Qtian
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Reply #11 - June 07, 2014, 01:21 PM

Hi Zeus, I like to think of it this way.
Muslims claim that the Qur'an is a literary miracle since we cannot produce any verse/chapter like one in the Qur'an.
Therefore this is evidence of a divine creator influencing a "holy scripture"". Firstly, the causal connection between literature and God is very opaque.
Now, let's think about the following:

Sura an-Najm (Star) 53:19-22 refute the argument from literary excellence.
If the Qur'an is a literary miracle, so is the work of Shaytan.

Also, Muslims tend to have a confirmation bias when they claim that this a miracle. I am of the opinion that Saj' is not a divine style of prose, it uses wasteful repetition where it isn't really needed.

The actual argument in its logical form:

P1. If unbelievers can’t produce something comparable to a chapter of the Qur’an, then the Qur'an must be from God.

P2: Unbelievers can’t produce something comparable to a chapter of the Qur’an.

C:Therefore, the Qur’an must be from God.

Apart from the fact that Iblis (a pretty important unbeliever) has already met the challenge, native speakers have too. This argument does not hold any weight anymore and it is just an example of shifting the goalposts in order to make Arabic seem esoteric when giving dawah.

This literary claim is entirely subjective and hinges on Muslim ignorance of other scriptures. There are Sikh scriptures composed in beautiful format , Sikhs could also argue a "literary miracle".
And what about foreknowledge in scriptures such as Vedas? It gets to the stage where Muslims think that their supposed "holy word" is so special that they can ignore every other faith in their quest for truth.

_{Disclaimer: I do not endorse any sort of miracle in any holy book, none of them surpass naturalism.}

My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
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Reply #12 - June 07, 2014, 01:22 PM

Well here's a random one. No clue if the bloke actually is a philosopher, these gimps love to sensationalize.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K30b28o27tY

It actually has the phone thing.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #13 - June 07, 2014, 01:23 PM

Quote from: Qtian on June 07, 2014, 01:21 PM
Hi Zeus, I like to think of it this way.
Muslims claim that the Qur'an is a literary miracle since we cannot produce any verse like one in the Qur'an.
Hmm... let's think about this:

Sura an-Najm (Star) 53:19-22 refute this argument.
If the Qur'an is a literary miracle, so is the work of Shaytan.

Is that when Satan produced a chapter like it?

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #14 - June 07, 2014, 01:28 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on June 07, 2014, 01:22 PM
Well here's a random one. No clue if the bloke actually is a philosopher, these gimps love to sensationalize.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K30b28o27tY

It actually has the phone thing.

6 minutes 10 seconds, he says "There's a chance you're not a man, you're an elephant in disguise, do you see?"

And they fucking posted it for everyone to see!!!!!!!

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #15 - June 07, 2014, 01:33 PM

Quote from: Qtian on June 07, 2014, 01:21 PM
Hi Zeus, I like to think of it this way.
Muslims claim that the Qur'an is a literary miracle since we cannot produce any verse like one in the Qur'an.
Therefore this is evidence of a divine creator influencing a "holy scripture"". Firstly, the causal connection between literature and God is very opaque.
Now, let's think about the following:

Sura an-Najm (Star) 53:19-22 refute the argument from literary excellence.
If the Qur'an is a literary miracle, so is the work of Shaytan.

Also, Muslims tend to have a confirmation bias when they claim that this a miracle. I am of the opinion that Saj' is a lazy style of prose, it uses wasteful repetition where it isn't really needed.

The actual argument in its logical form:

P1. If unbelievers can’t produce something comparable to a chapter of the Qur’an, then it must be from God.

P2: Unbelievers can’t produce something comparable to a chapter of the Qur’an.

C:Therefore, the Qur’an must be from God.

Apart from the fact that the devil (the biggest unbeliever) has already met the challenge, other native speakers have too. This argument does not hold any weight anymore and it is just an example of shifting the goalposts in order to make Arabic seem esoteric when giving dawah.

That day i read the translation of surah Al-Kausar (108). I find nothing special about it. Just like any other people telling story. It doesn't strike anything in my heart.

Hahaha it is true. quoting you "an example of shifting the goalposts in order to make Arabic seem esoteric when giving dawah."
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Reply #16 - June 07, 2014, 01:38 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on June 07, 2014, 01:23 PM
Is that when Satan produced a chapter like it?

Indeed, when Iblis said "fuck it, I'm going to take part in the surah challenge".

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Reply #17 - June 07, 2014, 01:41 PM

@Zeus

I mean, parts of the Qur'an are very beautiful. Humans are capable of beautiful things.
This is just a disguised argument from ignorance.
"You can't prove that this isn't the work of Allah so haha I win".

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Reply #18 - June 07, 2014, 01:45 PM

I conclude with a statement from Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi:

“You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say: 'Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one.' Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. … By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say: 'Produce something like it'‽”

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Reply #19 - June 07, 2014, 01:50 PM

Sura an-Najm (Star) 53:19-22
I read the translation and I don't get your point from these verses.

Quote from: Qtian on June 07, 2014, 01:41 PM
@Zeus

I mean, parts of the Qur'an are very beautiful. Humans are capable of beautiful things.
This is just a disguised argument from ignorance.
"You can't prove that this isn't the work of Allah so haha I win".

Yup humans are capable of beautiful things.
the challenge is produce a sura like it. then human produce thousands of literature works way better than sura al-kausar. so challenge already met right?

it is funny cuz the burden of prove is on the muslims hahaha
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Reply #20 - June 07, 2014, 02:00 PM

I don't think the challenge is that simple, because Shakespeare etc.. haven't produced works which resemble Qur'anic saj' so they wouldn't refute the argument.
On the other hand, so many others have

http://suralikeit.com/

In my opinion, we have to look no further than the work of Iblis if we want a refutation of the argument. He managed to fool the prophet, so he would probably fool iERA and the other Dawah loonies too.

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Reply #21 - June 07, 2014, 02:05 PM

"Can anyone make a pizza exactly like my wife? No. Is she therefore a divinely inspired pizza dough chef. Well she's good but , hell - it's asking an awful lot of a Margherita."

-Rationalislam.blogspot.co.uk

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Reply #22 - June 07, 2014, 02:08 PM

Quote from: Qtian on June 07, 2014, 02:05 PM
"Can anyone make a pizza exactly like my wife? No. Is she therefore a divinely inspired pizza dough chef. Well she's good but , hell - it's asking an awful lot of a Margherita."

-Rationalislam.blogspot.co.uk

exactly.

Quote from: Qtian on June 07, 2014, 02:00 PM
I don't think the challenge is that simple, because Shakespeare etc.. haven't produced works which resemble Qur'anic saj' so they wouldn't refute the argument.
On the other hand, so many others have

http://suralikeit.com/

In my opinion, we have to look no further than the work of Iblis if we want a refutation of the argument. He managed to fool the prophet, so he would probably fool iERA and the other Dawah loonies too.

well i dont understand quranic saj' so i cant comment on it.
yup suralikeit is one of it. but muslims still deny it. i cant comment whether suralikeit met the challenge since i dont know arabic.

so it's literary form is just for arabic speaker, and people like me cant appreciate the 'miracle' of quran. so it is not my fault for not knowing that the literary form of quran is 'so miraculous'. so much of a book from god. meh
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Reply #23 - June 07, 2014, 02:12 PM

I'm nowhere near proficient in Arabic either, I'm learning how to read it properly again.
You don't have to know Arabic to understand the Qur'an anyways, it just helps to know Arabic when arguing against the Dawah types

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Reply #24 - June 07, 2014, 02:16 PM

Quote from: LordZeus on June 07, 2014, 02:08 PM
exactly.

well i dont understand quranic saj' so i cant comment on it.
yup suralikeit is one of it. but muslims still deny it. i cant comment whether suralikeit met the challenge since i dont know arabic.

so it's literary form is just for arabic speaker, and people like me cant appreciate the 'miracle' of quran. so it is not my fault for not knowing that the literary form of quran is 'so miraculous'. so much of a book from god. meh

Muslims figuratively cry when you use an English translation to examine the Qur'an.
If the word of God is so timeless & is able to transcend universal barriers, what is the problem in reading it in other languages?
Reading the Qur'an in your own language is actually quite beneficial, as those translations tend to remove any "literary miracles" and force you to read what the Qur'an actually says as opposed to what you think it should say.
I don't understand why things in the Qur'an have to be selectively allegorical or why a supreme omniscient and omnipotent, omnipresent Deity entrusted fallible humans in passing on his "revelation".

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Reply #25 - June 07, 2014, 02:26 PM

Quote from: Qtian on June 07, 2014, 02:12 PM
I'm nowhere near proficient in Arabic either, I'm learning how to read it properly again.
You don't have to know Arabic to understand the Qur'an anyways, it just helps to know Arabic when arguing against the Dawah types

i know how to recite quran and learn some arabic during high school.
but i wont argue with them about arabic cuz i know it will be pointless. the language is so vast and each words have so many meanings. even the shia and sunni scholar still arguing with the meaning of some words in quran. the argument will last forever, so no point trying.

that's why what is the use of miracle if people wont notice it. does god do this useless thing? its like performing a miracle in a cave where no one can see it.

Quote from: Qtian on June 07, 2014, 02:16 PM
Muslims figuratively cry when you use an English translation to examine the Qur'an.
If the word of God is so timeless & is able to transcend universal barriers, what is the problem in reading it in other languages?
Reading the Qur'an in your own language is actually quite beneficial, as those translations tend to remove any "literary miracles" and force you to read what the Qur'an actually says as opposed to what you think it should say.
I don't understand why things in the Qur'an have to be selectively allegorical or why a supreme omniscient and omnipotent, omnipresent Deity entrusted fallible humans in passing on his "revelation".

muslims will avoid thinking something like that. it would make them doubt about god. so they stop thinking about it.
i did that when i was a muslim, my mother did that and that's why she is still a muslim.

plus you cant ask if the mullah don't know the answer. cuz you will just weaken your iman and people will say bad things about you. better shut up and believe.
this is what i've been tought.
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Reply #26 - June 07, 2014, 02:28 PM

Same here, my mother used to say that I should read the Qur'an in Arabic. I used to ask her why, when I don't even understand the language and I can only read it.
She would then reply with "because that's how it is meant to be read".

Asking a Mullah for me is useless, since from my experience they don't understand the first thing about logic and will only reply with an emotional response.
"The Qur'an makes me cry when I recite it, how is this not evidence of the divine?"

Smoking weed makes my eyes water sometimes, is that evidence of God?

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Reply #27 - June 07, 2014, 02:41 PM

Quote from: Qtian on June 07, 2014, 02:28 PM
Same here, my mother used to say that I should read the Qur'an in Arabic. I used to ask her why, when I don't even understand the language and I can only read it.
She would then reply with "because that's how it is meant to be read".

Asking a Mullah for me is useless, since from my experience they don't understand the first thing about logic and will only reply with an emotional response.
"The Qur'an makes me cry when I recite it, how is this not evidence of the divine?"

Smoking weed makes my eyes water sometimes, is that evidence of God?

asking a mullah is useless. plus it might harm myself by exposing my view to him.
im asking my father(an ustaz) when i have doubt, he understand logic but i think he is scared to doubt islam so he put all his doubt away. when he cant answer he will say for sure ayatollah know the answer. but we dont have access to him just believe for now.

i only ask some question, like not so radical question just to put doubt in him. for now he knows that im not convinced with islam, but i pretend to pray in front of him so he will think im still a muslim. i dont want my parents to be sad to know that im an apostate. i just cant find the evidence for islam. not that i purposely want to leave islam.
when he
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Reply #28 - June 07, 2014, 02:51 PM

Welcome to fundamentalist Islam, this is where logic comes to die.

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Reply #29 - June 07, 2014, 03:45 PM

Quote from: Qtian on June 07, 2014, 02:51 PM
Welcome to fundamentalist Islam, this is where logic comes to die.

my father is a rational person but islam make him irrational.
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