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 Topic: Re-introduction

 (Read 9444 times)
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  • Re-introduction
     OP - June 19, 2014, 03:57 PM

    Hi everyone!

    It's been quite a few years since I've been here. I left due to simply a lack of time, and a certain concern with censorship I had.

    So I thought I should re-introduce myself =).

    I am a Muslim, and I currently live in Canada. While I was born Muslim, I begin asking tough and fundamental questions of life at about 14 or so, and eventually came back to Islam and am completely rationally convinced of it. I enjoy debates and have had numerous debates individually, online, and a few publicly as well. Most of my experience is really with atheists and secular-humanists whom I have debated extensively, and I do not have a lot of experience with the Jewish or Christian community. Hopefully there are some here so I can get more perspective. My most intellectual debates in particular have been with Buddhists and Communists, who tend to be well thought-out and not inclined to emotional thinking or groupthink. I really enjoy both philosophy and political analysis, and are really my points of strength.

    The people of Canada are generally pretty relaxed, so I cannot relate too much to the environment in the UK, US, and Australia where there seem to be a lot of tension and hostility between different people. I have never met an ex-muslim here, mostly because I find in Canada a person would prefer to either not be practicing and still believe or just leave out the parts of Islam they do not like/don't believe in but still refer to themselves as Muslim.

    It is interesting for me to get a better look at what ex-Muslims are like in conversation, their points of contention, etc. This forum is really the only one of the like I can find on the internet, and so I get a chance to profile and gain more information so that I am better aware of divisions in society.

    In terms of some of my views, philosophically I am very anti John-Locke, who I believe has been a bit of a disaster for modern society. I believe the intellectual and economic flaws Lenin and Marx pointed out with the current reality of capitalism and the freedom-based political society were quite good. I strongly disagree with feminism as a social construct, and I believe TheAmazingAtheist and in particular Karen Straughan make some points to consider.

    I sympathize with some of you who might have had very bad experience with family and community. I have been blessed with absolutely wonderful parents, though I have had to help many people with less-than-wonderful parents (in particular the Caucasian demographic), so if anyone ever wants to talk I'm pretty easy to talk to about stuff =).

    Anyways nice to meet everyone!
  • Re-introduction
     Reply #1 - June 19, 2014, 05:01 PM

    Welcome back. Have a parrot.  parrot


    When you say you don't believe in feminism as a social construct, what do you mean?

    The future is full of thrilling possibilities.
  • Re-introduction
     Reply #2 - June 19, 2014, 05:08 PM

    Welcome back. parrot

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Re-introduction
     Reply #3 - June 19, 2014, 05:14 PM

    Feel free to hop into any discussion you like. I find that the label "Muslim" really does not give me much to work with when trying to understand your actual beliefs. It is more a loose umbrella term and a symbol of affiliation in most cases. Just so that I can understand your views a little more, I hope you won't mind answering a few clarifying questions:

    Do you believe in an all powerful Allah? If so, can you describe how you perceive him to be a little? (i.e. physically above the "throne" or omnipresent, Most Just or Most Merciful, etc)
    Do you believe in free will?
    Do you believe in predestination?
    Do you believe in evolution by natural selection? If so, do you accept human evolution?
    Do you accept hell? Is it eternal? Is it physical? Who deserves to go there?
    Do you accept the authority of the body of Hadiths?
    Do you believe the Qur'an to be the actual word of God? Also, how do you interpret its passages as a whole? Do you think it is compatible with science?
    Do you believe in angels and jinns?

    That's all for now, though there is much more I could ask. I'm just trying to get an idea of what your beliefs are like as someone who claims the label "Muslim."

    Thanks. Enjoy your stay.

  • Re-introduction
     Reply #4 - June 19, 2014, 05:41 PM

    Welcome back home. We are pleased you have come to your senses...again.


    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Re-introduction
     Reply #5 - June 19, 2014, 05:49 PM

    Welcome back!
  • Re-introduction
     Reply #6 - June 19, 2014, 09:52 PM

    Welcome back TruthSeeker!

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re-introduction
     Reply #7 - June 19, 2014, 11:30 PM

    Welcome brother/sister(fellow sibling of the human race). bunny parrot
    You sound like a reasonable sort and this forum could do with a few more reasonable muslims around the place, I look forward to you joining in the discussions and I promise to try and be a reasonable ex-muslim too.  Afro
  • Re-introduction
     Reply #8 - June 20, 2014, 12:48 AM

     parrot
    Hello!

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Re-introduction
     Reply #9 - June 20, 2014, 04:43 AM

    I feel kind of obligated to reply to everyone so I will! (sorry over here we're the type to hold the door open for you when you're like half a kilometer away just to be polite so yeah).

    Welcome back. Have a parrot.  parrot


    When you say you don't believe in feminism as a social construct, what do you mean?


    Hi, and thanks!

    Well its sometimes hard to talk about feminism because it is not at all monolithic. For example, you will find feminists who are pro-nudity and then those who are pro-veiling. Many times when I might mention feminism the reply I get is 'well I don't personally believe that' which is hard to reply to.

    So instead when I talk about feminism I am speaking from a social policy (and not a historic perspective where women were simply reclaiming basic human rights). Feminism today, in some ways, looks at social reality like a communist in that the modern notion is absolute equality in its raw form. I find this word view not only irrational, but problematic in practice.

    But I don't want to bog down the introduction threat, maybe you can tag me in a discussion elsewhere or something! I'm not sure how this forum works, I can't even find the multi-quote buttom =S.

    Welcome back. parrot


    Thanks! What's with the parrot?

    Welcome back home. We are pleased you have come to your senses...again.

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    I kind of like unicorns, if only it had wings!

    Welcome back!


    Thanks! Out of curiosity what does this 'lua' name mean?

    Welcome back TruthSeeker!


    Thank you asbie!

    Welcome brother/sister(fellow sibling of the human race). bunny parrot
    You sound like a reasonable sort and this forum could do with a few more reasonable muslims around the place, I look forward to you joining in the discussions and I promise to try and be a reasonable ex-muslim too.  Afro


    Reasonable and sincere discussion is the best thing with another person! Too often I see discussion bogged down in arrogance or ego-wars =(. Emotion is nice when you want to be friendly, but it really takes away from a sincere and rational discussion you know?

    If there's somewhere you want to tag me for a discussion or too feel free! =). Maybe with some tea or coffee or something!
  • Re-introduction
     Reply #10 - June 20, 2014, 04:48 AM

    Hello TruthSeeker, Welcome back.

    "I enjoy debates and have had numerous debates individually, online, and a few publicly as well. Most of my experience is really with atheists and secular-humanists whom I have debated extensively."

    If you don't mind me asking, what debate topics have you covered with atheists?

    Also, what are your beliefs regarding the strongest arguments for Classical theism?

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Re-introduction
     Reply #11 - June 20, 2014, 04:59 AM

    .


    Sure I'll have a browse around. I'm eying that philosophy section =). I want to look at that arabic section, but it seems to use informal arabic and I really only have (very limited) knowledge of classic arabic. I'll probably need help traversing it.

    Oh and I'm answering you separately because you asked so much!

    I used the term Muslim because that's really the only appropriate term to use for a Muslim, and all the internal labeling I see amongst Muslims I find problematic because its so divisive and not based on Islam anyways. I think people ran out of things to disagree on they would simply make something up just so they could disagree some more =/.

    So for your questions:

    I believe the universe has a Creator, as opposed to there being nothing or an eternal universe. I don't presume much else except that the traits mentioned in the Qur'an like 'Al-Jabbar,,' 'As-Salaam,' or 'Al Moomin.' That's really it, because I can't really perceive anything beyond that (limitation of human beings and whatnot!)

    I believe in free-will in the sense that human beings make choices within that which they control, and they do not within that which they do not control. So they control their decision to stab someone, but they don't control the color of their eyes when they are born or the attribute of burning that exists in fire.

    I'm not sure what is meant by predestination here, because I think the term means different things to different people. Lots of semantics you know? So perhaps you could elaborate. Or maybe it was similar to the free-will question?

    I accept micro-evolution (adaptation), but I reject macro-evolution (special change by category). However, for me this topic has nothing to do with Islam, rather it is my view based on a look at the scientific and logical evidences on the topic. In other words, I would hold this view whether I was a Buddhist, Atheist, Communist, Muslim, etc. Well maybe not if I was Buddhist, cause lots of stuff changes from a epistemological perspective with them. I have some family members who are in this sort of field so I've ended up having lots of conversations in the topic. Sometimes it makes my head spin =S.

    Yes I believe in hellfire, but as this is the 'unseen' I believe in this by rational thinking and not by way of empiricism or pure logic.

    As for Ahadith, that depends. It is a chain of narration, so it depends on the level of strength. For example, if one person tells me of an event that happened at my work I'll listen but take it with a grain of salt. But if its on every news outlet in the world and no one is disagreeing with it, then I will accept it. Ahadith are the same way. I accept 'mutawatir' ahadith, and am cautious with 'ahad' ahadith. Its really case-by-case =).

    I believe in the Qur'an, but as for literal and interpretation, again like ahadith it depends. Some things are very clear and there is no interpretation involved (like the prohibition on usury). Others require investigation, and even after investigation might leave room for doubt. This gets into the nitty-gritty because there are a lot of rules in 'sarf (morphology) and nahw (grammar) so it depends on the verse.

    As for science, science is a fantastic field, but its sort of goes into its own bucket. Science is a science, which mean it is built upon other premises from philosophy. A fantastic tool to learn about reality, but the scope is decided by the one wielding the tool as opposed the tool itself. Does that make sense?

    Angels and jinn is like the answer to hellfire. Interestingly enough I know a fair amount of atheists who seem to believe in what they say are 'spirits' or a 'higher' energy. Of course this sounds rather odd to me because they are for the most part pure empiricists so I'm not sure how they justify that. Perhaps influence from eastern philosophies? Allahu Alam.

    Sooooooo... do I have a label yet? =P.

    Cheers!
  • Re-introduction
     Reply #12 - June 20, 2014, 05:06 AM

    Hello TruthSeeker, Welcome back.

    "I enjoy debates and have had numerous debates individually, online, and a few publicly as well. Most of my experience is really with atheists and secular-humanists whom I have debated extensively."

    If you don't mind me asking, what debate topics have you covered with atheists?

    Also, what are your beliefs regarding the strongest arguments for Classical theism?


    Thanks!

    Everything under the sun! philosophy, politics, evolution, feminism, penal code, hate-crimes, you name it.

    It's usually the same topics, especially with secular humanists (who I've kind of gotten tired of discussing with personally).

    I much rather prefer conversations with Buddhists and Communists (hardline logical atheists). The ones I met are very astute and are extremely self aware and politically aware. Most of them have zero level of emotional arguments, ad hominems, and other such things inserted into discussion. Those are really the best discussions in my view, because its a conversation of who has the correct understand instead of ego-battles and stuff like that. The whole quick-tipped sharp-tongue speech is not my cup of tea.

    I'm not sure what you mean by classical theism. You mean like old-skool philosophy arguments? I don't really have one, its more a collective. Argument from contingency is quite good. On a side note about classic theism and philosphy, I have found it very interesting at how differing the views of modern atheism are depending upon whether the person comes from a scientific/social-sciences background vs a philosophical one. Extremely divergent.
  • Re-introduction
     Reply #13 - June 20, 2014, 05:22 AM

    I don't blame you, those who incessantly reinforce their humanistic values are often tedious to argue with.
    Anyways by "Classical Theism", I am adhering to the conventional definition:

    "Classical theism refers to the form of theism in which God is characterized as the absolutely metaphysically ultimate being,"

    I would sincerely like to engage you in a future debate, the topic would probably be "Theism vs atheism" which as you can see is quite vast. However, I am quite busy these days so I can only commit to one when I am free.



    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Re-introduction
     Reply #14 - June 20, 2014, 11:27 AM

    Hi
    Hi everyone!
    Anyways nice to meet everyone!


    Hi, nice to meet you too Smiley

    Question: Do you believer in eternal hellfire/torture for those who reject Islam?
  • Re-introduction
     Reply #15 - June 20, 2014, 12:17 PM

    Quote
    Thanks! Out of curiosity what does this 'lua' name mean?


    When I registered I just quickly rearranged some letters of some of my name. Grin

    It's also a programming language, and, judging by the returns in google images, must be some language's word for the moon. But for me, it was laziness.
  • Re-introduction
     Reply #16 - June 20, 2014, 05:17 PM

    Thanks! What's with the parrot?

    A CEMB tradition. The parrot is a custom extended in greeting.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Re-introduction
     Reply #17 - June 20, 2014, 05:35 PM

    From the Divine Revelation:

    Quote
    Suratul-Parrot:

    1.The Parrot
    2. What Parrot?
    3. And what shall make ye know what constitutes a parrot?
    4. Surely, thy lord hath blessed it and filled it with merit
    5. And hath made it taste like chicken when cooked, thus do we compare it.
    6. And the rabbit he hath blessed, and made it love the carrot.
    7. So when thou seeth a furry rabbit, try not to scare it
    8. And when new members join the forum, offer them rabbit and parrot
    9. Dancing side by side together, thus shall ye share it
    10. Surely, those who deny parrots and rabbits, we have prepared for them a dunce cap and we shall force them to wear it
    11. For only a few minutes, and just for laughs really, thus does your lord declare it


     bunny parrot
  • Re-introduction
     Reply #18 - June 20, 2014, 06:43 PM

    I kind of like unicorns, if only it had wings!


    Silly, when was the last time you actually SAWED a unicorn with wings!!!!!!!!!!!!!?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh??

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Re-introduction
     Reply #19 - June 22, 2014, 01:44 AM

    I don't blame you, those who incessantly reinforce their humanistic values are often tedious to argue with.
    Anyways by "Classical Theism", I am adhering to the conventional definition:

    "Classical theism refers to the form of theism in which God is characterized as the absolutely metaphysically ultimate being,"

    I would sincerely like to engage you in a future debate, the topic would probably be "Theism vs atheism" which as you can see is quite vast. However, I am quite busy these days so I can only commit to one when I am free.


    You understand me!

    I'd gladly do such a topic, but like you I am quite busy too. Such debates do take time, if you ever visit Canada then perhaps over a cup of coffee!

    But whenever you are free we could start something around here somewhere I'm sure.

    Hi
    Hi, nice to meet you too Smiley

    Question: Do you believer in eternal hellfire/torture for those who reject Islam?

    =).

    Well my understanding of the topic of hellfire is much like the topic of paradise: the destination is based on sincerity and level of knowledge.

    I consider the existence of the Creator and the revelation of the Qur'an to be the truth of reality. However, many might not understand this to be the truth, either because they do not have the information to reach this conclusion or they are not convinced but sincere. The key here is really for that insincere person, the one who makes a choice to reject what they can see is true, which is what earns them hellfire. This is of course with the comprehension that Islam is indeed true, but since we're looking at how Islam sees the world that would have to be the reality to even ponder on asking this question =).

    None of us really know what is going on inside another person though, so you never really know what a person believes. We kind of just take a person's word at what they say and try to judge them by the actions they do you know?

    When I registered I just quickly rearranged some letters of some of my name. Grin

    It's also a programming language, and, judging by the returns in google images, must be some language's word for the moon. But for me, it was laziness.


    Really eh?

    What's your name? I can't think of a name with those three letters =S.

    A CEMB tradition. The parrot is a custom extended in greeting.

    From the Divine Revelation:

     bunny parrot


    Well its a pretty colorful parrot. It's bobbing and weaving as if it is in a sparring match! Perhaps a 1v1 with me and the parrot some day =).
  • Re-introduction
     Reply #20 - June 22, 2014, 01:58 AM

    ^ No, no, the beginning of my last name. Grin Sorry, I bet that was confusing.

    Anyway, those are some interesting beliefs regarding Hell and the qualifications to get there. That's kind of what my husband believes. I asked him if he really thinks that there's a sort of person who will 100% understand that Islam is true, that he's going to be tortured forever if he doesn't toe the line, but he decides, "Eh, whatever, I can take eternal torture. It's worth it." And then I asked him if that sort of totally irrational person would be the sort of guy who should be held accountable so severely, because he clearly ain't right in the head.

    He didn't really have an answer for either of those, but maybe you do, if you wouldn't mind sharing your opinion on it? I suspect you gave it a bit more thought than he did. Grin
  • Re-introduction
     Reply #21 - June 22, 2014, 05:02 AM

    ^ No, no, the beginning of my last name. Grin Sorry, I bet that was confusing.

    Anyway, those are some interesting beliefs regarding Hell and the qualifications to get there. That's kind of what my husband believes. I asked him if he really thinks that there's a sort of person who will 100% understand that Islam is true, that he's going to be tortured forever if he doesn't toe the line, but he decides, "Eh, whatever, I can take eternal torture. It's worth it." And then I asked him if that sort of totally irrational person would be the sort of guy who should be held accountable so severely, because he clearly ain't right in the head.

    He didn't really have an answer for either of those, but maybe you do, if you wouldn't mind sharing your opinion on it? I suspect you gave it a bit more thought than he did. Grin


    Oh that makes much more sense! It's a last name thing =).

    Well that is from my understanding the correct way to view the topic. The reason is because if you look at the evidences, they are connected to thinking, and accountability is removed when the thinking mechanism (the brain) is incapable of function. For example you are not accountable if you are asleep, below the age of puberty, or mentally impaired all of which are linked by non-function of the brain. Since the whole topic of hellfire and paradise are linked to accountability, it is just one single topic. If someone doesn't know how can you punish them at all? Added in the fact that a child goes to paradise automatically (which is again in line with this understanding).

    But if a person chooses that's different. The issue is about choice. When someone attacks you and you kill them you can justify self-defense. But when you make the pro-active choice to go attack someone and kill them you cannot really justify it. As Neo from the Matrix said "The problem is choice." (Lol sorry for that reference it just fit!)

    Actually even our entire life on this planet is determined by choice. Some choose to engage in unending intercourse without protection, for the sake of 'in the moment' joy. But there is a cost. It's why we always have the 'cost-benefit-analysis' models in business, because there isn't unlimited benefit, there is always a cost. Paradise and hellfire are really the same thing.

    A very practical example is for instance school. Most people put up with the cost of suffering in school for the benefit of gaining money in the future. Some people don't want to, they prefer to just have fun throughout their early life. But then we see they got their benefit early on, and they will simply pay a cost later (usually). And usually its more severe. This is also why we have things like retirement funds and the like. Human compulsion to guarantee the future, if you look at economic models or financial instruments you'll notice how much of it revolves around trying to deal with future costs/benefits. This is why =).

    Sorry my reply was long, I just wanted to add more perspective!
  • Re-introduction
     Reply #22 - June 22, 2014, 05:09 AM

    It wasn't too long! Thanks for the reply. So you do believe, unless I read you wrong, that there are people out there who have not a single doubt in their minds that their skins are going to be eternally roasted and they know that's the truth of reality, but they just can't be bothered to save themselves? I'd reckon that's not exactly punishing someone for non-belief as much as it is punishing them for being totally insane. Grin

    I'm just trying to get a feel for what you think of real, actual non-belief. Like what if you read the Quran and it just wasn't floating your boat, sounded like silliness to you and to say you believed it would be a real lie. Are those people screwed?
  • Re-introduction
     Reply #23 - June 22, 2014, 05:30 AM

    It wasn't too long! Thanks for the reply. So you do believe, unless I read you wrong, that there are people out there who have not a single doubt in their minds that their skins are going to be eternally roasted and they know that's the truth of reality, but they just can't be bothered to save themselves? I'd reckon that's not exactly punishing someone for non-belief as much as it is punishing them for being totally insane. Grin

    I'm just trying to get a feel for what you think of real, actual non-belief. Like what if you read the Quran and it just wasn't floating your boat, sounded like silliness to you and to say you believed it would be a real lie. Are those people screwed?


    I just wanted to bold the important part =).

    Those people are not screwed, because the issue is they are not convinced. Only the person themselves knows if they are sincere and true to themselves or not. If they truly aren't convinced then they are judged based on what they are convinced of. And the responsibility actually then falls upon the Muslims, because they were not collectively doing a good enough job conveying why the belief is correct. The person who has looked into it and is not convinced is instead held to account based on the things they actually do know.

    One of my co-workers was once trying to tell me that everything has its price. I told him no that's wrong: you can't buy my  belief. You can torture me, hurt my family, even kill me, but you can't make me believe fire doesn't burn things. The only way to change my mind is to convince me otherwise.

    And that's what matters. I can have a thought about something, but it is my choice whether I want to accept it as true or not. If I accept a true thought as true, then I am in line with reality. If I accept a false thought as true, I am not in line with reality and hence I'm accountable!

    Now of course, part of being sincere is continuing to engage in discussion. Often times you will see, hear, or read something that makes you start to question. The sincere person wants to address it. The insincere person hides it and pretends like its not there. It works both ways as you can see. Actually, just based on my experience, I really like girls in discussion because they don't have this problem of arrogance usually, and they listen really well. Some guys tend to be like a runaway-trains, once you get them going they won't stop =S.

    As I said at the very start though, after all my discussions with people, I am absolutely 100% rationally convinced of the existence of a Creator and the Qur'an being revelation from this Creator. And I discuss so much because I am constantly gaining more information to try to see if I am missing something, but as of yet I haven't found anything. At this point I would be a bit surprised if someone presented an argument I haven't heard before (though of course we are always learning and I have so much to learn!)
  • Re-introduction
     Reply #24 - June 22, 2014, 05:58 AM

    If someone who is unaware or unconvinced of the truth of islam won't go to hell, then why tell people about the religion? If they do believe and can't handle all the rules isn't it a possibility they'll end up in hell, whereas if they had remained ignorant they'd have gone to heaven?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Re-introduction
     Reply #25 - June 22, 2014, 09:57 AM

    ^ Naw, the ignorant, non punishable people according to islam are those tribes who haven't seen civilization that live in the outbacks of the amazonion jungle or some forest dwelling elsewhere who have never set eyes on "Revelation", then there's children and the mentally impaired.. The rest of us who know of islam and have the opportunity to read quran and convert but reject it are doomed for hellfire..   which kind of contradicts why and how a muslim man is allowed to marry "people of the book" christians and jews, why marry a woman who is going to hell  wacko   
  • Re-introduction
     Reply #26 - June 22, 2014, 12:19 PM

    You understand me!

    I'd gladly do such a topic, but like you I am quite busy too. Such debates do take time, if you ever visit Canada then perhaps over a cup of coffee!

    But whenever you are free we could start something around here somewhere I'm sure.
    =).


    Great Smiley

    Unfortunately I live in England & I have no immediate plans to travel to Canada. However, as you correctly pointed out, this forum can also accommodate a debate format. I will be sure to let you know when I am free Smiley
    (I'll also suggest a structure for the debate in order to avoid it dragging on and on)

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Re-introduction
     Reply #27 - June 22, 2014, 12:23 PM

    If someone who is unaware or unconvinced of the truth of islam won't go to hell, then why tell people about the religion? If they do believe and can't handle all the rules isn't it a possibility they'll end up in hell, whereas if they had remained ignorant they'd have gone to heaven?


    Not as simple as that, al-Ghazali proposed the criterion of "judging".

    It essentially boils down to two categories: Jahil-e-Muqassir (culpable ignorance) and Jahil-e-qasir (inculpable ignorance).
    On top of this, he stated that those who receive the message of Islam but in such a distorted way that they cannot believe it are worse off than those who never received the message at all.
    Therefore, those who fit into this band & the entire band of inculpable ignorance shall not be "judged".

    Anyways, according to Mr.Ghazali I should have already reserved my place in hell & been killed for my apostasy Smiley

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Re-introduction
     Reply #28 - June 22, 2014, 12:43 PM

    Not as simple as that, al-Ghazali proposed the criterion of "judging".

    It essentially boils down to two categories: Jahil-e-Muqassir (culpable ignorance) and Jahil-e-qasir (inculpable ignorance).
    On top of this, he stated that those who receive the message of Islam but in such a distorted way that they cannot believe it are worse off than those who never received the message at all.
    Therefore, those who fit into this band & the entire band of inculpable ignorance shall not be "judged".

    Anyways, according to Mr.Ghazali I should have already reserved my place in hell & been killed for my apostasy Smiley


    Given the fact that most apologists then say 'don't judge Islam on Muslims behaviour' and 'don't judge Islam on laws et cetera in 'Islamic' countries as they are not implementing them properly' and also 'You can't understand Islam if you don't read and understand the Classical Arabic version of the Qu'ran and Hadiths' that means that no non-Arabic speaking person can actually go to hell at they are all in-culpably ignorant therefore Muslims shouldn't bother trying to convert anybody. In fact this even means that most Muslims cannot be Muslims as nobody actually practices it right (don't judge on Muslims or Islamic countries) and most don't speak or read Classical Arabic therefore they themselves are in-culpably ignorant therefore not going to hell either. This means that effectively in practice there is almost no such thing as a Muslim or Islam as nobody can agree as to what it is and who and who is not actually a proper Muslim with a capital 'M'.

  • Re-introduction
     Reply #29 - June 22, 2014, 01:34 PM

    Thanks for trying to explain it to me, truthseeker. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...I really do not believe that there is such a person who definitely "knows" that he's going to Hell but he won't even try to avoid it because he wants what he acknowledges is a temporary and minor pleasure more than he wants to not be tortured forever. More than he wants eternal paradise. If you showed me such a man, I would not consider him a rational person who should be culpable. There's something wrong with that guy.

    If I thought for a second that the god of Islam/Christianity was real or even was likely to be, I'd be out of here in a second, I'd be the most pious and devoted woman the world has ever seen. I don't like either religion on a personal level, but I'm not that stupid. Sometimes I burn my fingers trying to get toast out of our weird old toaster and I gripe about it for hours. No thank you to eternal fire.

    Besides, if they know Islam is true, and knowing the truth but not actively acknowledging it is the criteria for going to Hell for disbelief in your opinion, is that really disbelief in the first place? It just seems awfully odd that the Quran and hadith are always coming down so hard on the disbelievers and promising that they will be the losers on the last day if it's really only going to be a few totally crazy, stubborn guys? I guess this stance is just one I will always have a hard time with.
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