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 Topic: Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic

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  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     OP - June 23, 2014, 03:32 PM

    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/23/female-genital-mutilation-muslim-council-britain-unislamic-condemn


    can only be a good thing  I guess

    According to the polls only 1.6 % of Americans are athiests. So what gives you the right to call the other 80% morons?'
  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #1 - June 23, 2014, 03:35 PM

    About fucking time.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #2 - June 23, 2014, 03:36 PM

    Quote
    Group issues explicit guidance for the first time, condemning practice which it says is no longer linked to religious teaching


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #3 - June 23, 2014, 03:38 PM

    So it was at a time?

    There are Islamic groups that are against MGM as well stating the 'no compulsion in religion' line.
  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #4 - June 23, 2014, 03:48 PM

    About fucking time.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKvQVn1u5tk
    These Somali women have been campaigning against it for ages to their communities.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmsusnH7CS0
    I wish more attention was paid to their work. They're doing some really great community work.

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #5 - June 23, 2014, 03:53 PM

    Women in the UK have been campaigning on this for years, facing ostracism, opposition, and problems. The MCB stayed silent. It was only after years of campaigning that these womens groups made a breakthrough, got the support of the Guardian, politicians, and had the law enforced, that the MCB decided to join in. Right at the end.

    Secularism forces religious groups to stand up for what is decent again. As they say, better late than never.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #6 - June 23, 2014, 03:55 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKvQVn1u5tk
    These Somali women have been campaigning against it for ages to their communities.
     .........................

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhBoYcJoqyA

    She was on the news....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #7 - June 23, 2014, 03:56 PM

    Secularism forces religious groups to stand up for what is decent again.

    billy, that is perfect.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #8 - June 23, 2014, 03:58 PM

    Women in the UK have been campaigning on this for years, facing ostracism, opposition, and problems. The MCB stayed silent. It was only after years of campaigning that these womens groups made a breakthrough, got the support of the Guardian, politicians, and had the law enforced, that the MCB decided to join in. Right at the end.

    Secularism forces religious groups to stand up for what is decent again. As they say, better late than never.



    Yet in about 10 years they will be saying ohhh that was down to Islam.
  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #9 - June 23, 2014, 04:15 PM

    Women in the UK have been campaigning on this for years, facing ostracism, opposition, and problems. The MCB stayed silent. It was only after years of campaigning that these womens groups made a breakthrough, got the support of the Guardian, politicians, and had the law enforced, that the MCB decided to join in. Right at the end.

    Secularism forces religious groups to stand up for what is decent again. As they say, better late than never.


    I remember thinking that these women must be seen as heretics by the conservative elements in their communities, even though their work is so obviously good and sincere to the rest of us. I'd be so terrified and easily brought down under that kind of pressure. Fortune favours the bold (i hope!)

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #10 - June 23, 2014, 04:32 PM

    You're only a heretic until you convince the masses you're right.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #11 - June 23, 2014, 04:35 PM

    I wish those Muslim women were given much more airtime much sooner.
    This is a typical  example of the confusion of some western feminists in that  a number  I spoke to on the subject decried the act but said speaking out against it could be deemed racist as they would be imposing their 'western culture' on other peoples culture.
    I seriously don't get that , either the cutting of female genitalia in order to remove the sex drive, is a bi-product of patriarchal tyranny and misogyny and a legitimate target for agitation or it is not. It shouldn't matter who the fuck is doing it.  
    There are those who do follow their principals rather than political dogma. A couple  atheist gay guys I know stood side by side with muslims in a Palestinian solidarity march one day then a couple of days later were down in Trafalgar Square again holding banners decrying the homophobia inherent in Islam.
    They were fearless, a group of about 20 of them in the square amongst  a few hundred islamists, including Chuadrey's mob. That takes guts.

    According to the polls only 1.6 % of Americans are athiests. So what gives you the right to call the other 80% morons?'
  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #12 - June 23, 2014, 04:38 PM

    I remember thinking that these women must be seen as heretics by the conservative elements in their communities, even though their work is so obviously good and sincere to the rest of us.


    They were. Some of the campaigners are still ostracised and face opposition.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #13 - June 23, 2014, 04:54 PM

    Last week it was covered in the news that a whole school class where victims of FGM here in Sweden (Norrköping). All but two of them by the severest form. It's going to be a long walk, muslim council involvement or not.
    I wish those Muslim women were given much more airtime much sooner.
    This is a typical  example of the confusion of some western feminists in that  a number  I spoke to on the subject decried the act but said speaking out against it could be deemed racist as they would be imposing their 'western culture' on other peoples culture.
    I seriously don't get that...

    I had a long discussion about FGM with a "typical swedish cultural relativist feminist" and the discussion ended with her comment:
    "You need to realise that all debate about FGM in Africa is taking the focus from western women who mutilate themselves." (My translation, she was refering to genital plastic surgery)
    Huh?
    Seriously? A 30 year old, whoever, has a little nip/tuck done on a labia or two by her own free will and with money she has earned herself and this is to be mentioned at all when talking about FGM? It should most certainly not!
  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #14 - June 23, 2014, 07:08 PM

    I wish those Muslim women were given much more airtime much sooner.
    This is a typical  example of the confusion of some western feminists in that  a number  I spoke to on the subject decried the act but said speaking out against it could be deemed racist as they would be imposing their 'western culture' on other peoples culture.
    I seriously don't get that , either the cutting of female genitalia in order to remove the sex drive, is a bi-product of patriarchal tyranny and misogyny and a legitimate target for agitation or it is not. It shouldn't matter who the fuck is doing it. 

    You don't know how often I've said that. If it were white vaginas it would be unacceptable.
    Last week it was covered in the news that a whole school class where victims of FGM here in Sweden (Norrköping). All but two of them by the severest form. It's going to be a long walk, muslim council involvement or not.I had a long discussion about FGM with a "typical swedish cultural relativist feminist" and the discussion ended with her comment:
    "You need to realise that all debate about FGM in Africa is taking the focus from western women who mutilate themselves." (My translation, she was refering to genital plastic surgery)
    Huh?
    Seriously? A 30 year old, whoever, has a little nip/tuck done on a labia or two by her own free will and with money she has earned herself and this is to be mentioned at all when talking about FGM? It should most certainly not!

    That would prove to me they had nothing worth saying.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #15 - June 23, 2014, 08:07 PM

    I notice they aren't allowing comments.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #16 - June 23, 2014, 11:09 PM

    Last week it was covered in the news that a whole school class where victims of FGM here in Sweden (Norrköping). All but two of them by the severest form. It's going to be a long walk, muslim council involvement or not.I had a long discussion about FGM with a "typical swedish cultural relativist feminist" and the discussion ended with her comment:
    "You need to realise that all debate about FGM in Africa is taking the focus from western women who mutilate themselves." (My translation, she was refering to genital plastic surgery)
    Huh?
    Seriously? A 30 year old, whoever, has a little nip/tuck done on a labia or two by her own free will and with money she has earned herself and this is to be mentioned at all when talking about FGM? It should most certainly not!

    That women sounds lke an automaton.  There is a big difference between someone paying for their own surgery however you may feel about it  ( Im guessing due to low self-esteem, to feel more attractive to a potential sex partner ) than someone being forced mentally or physically  to undergo an operation to kill any  natural sexual pleasure.
    This subject gets me so angry. I am glad I didnt have the conversation with her, I may have said some things I may have regretted.

    The underlying motive for FGM is a murderous male insecurity.
    Surely someone should be arguing to the fuckwiths that it is blasphemy to suggest that Allah somehow made a mistake in his          ' design'  of women and they should overrule his blueprint.

    According to the polls only 1.6 % of Americans are athiests. So what gives you the right to call the other 80% morons?'
  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #17 - June 23, 2014, 11:53 PM

    The underlying motive for FGM is a murderous male insecurity.

    Exacto.
  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #18 - June 24, 2014, 02:22 AM

    I wish this were coming from some Al Azhar fatwa council.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #19 - June 24, 2014, 11:24 AM

    Sorry to dissapoint but cliterecdomy is a "sunnah", even wajib according to some scholars. Perhaps better than total mutilation, but still disastrous for female sexual health and well-being.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #20 - June 24, 2014, 12:49 PM

    ^^ Yea.  I was just about to say that as long as hadiths exist that speak of circumcised ladies, hard core followers will continue to see it as sunnah to perform it.

    Plus what is said by one council of muslims in one western nation, is ignored as much as anything said by muslims in other nations.

    Of course it is a step, but it would need to be followed by all muslim scholars stating the same.

    That's one of the things I hate about Islam, and religion in general.  Somebody somewhere, will always interpret something differently, and then attempt to state it is the only correct way.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #21 - June 24, 2014, 12:57 PM

    Is there any qu'ranic recommendation for it?
  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #22 - June 24, 2014, 01:04 PM

    No, everything comes from the hadith. This is the case for both male and female circumcision.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #23 - June 24, 2014, 01:07 PM

    Ok, good information there. If there is then according to this body no Islamic support for infant FGM then how they get round the issue that infant MGM is only as supported as infant FGM Islamically is beyond me.
  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #24 - June 24, 2014, 01:30 PM

    It's a question of how you classify the narrations and their authenticity, as well as a question of interpreting the text itself and whether a mubah/mustahabb or wajib position is conveyed.

    Also, don't forget that there's a lot of sneaky double messages going around. You have to make a distinction between FGM and cliteridectomy. According to Islamic law, the least that could be said is that it is permissable (according to hadeeth). The Islamic practice is when you cut of parts of the clitoris. FGM is when you go beyond that. In Somalia, FGM has been on a decline lately, only to be replaced by cliterecdomy as the "pure Islamic practice". So maybe these people say FGM is haram, but classical sunni fiqh has ALWAYS deemed it to be haram. Cliteridectomy on the other hand cannot be classed as haram, "if the hadeeth is saheeh, we accept it". It's a fundamental principle, and no authentic text can be abandoned for any maqsad or qaaidah (Islamic gemeral/universal or lesser principle), because quran and sunnah takes prescedence over any other method in usool/fiqh. This is basically the one thing that all school of thoughts agree upon: quran, sunnah and ijmah of the scolars can't be messed with Smiley the interpretation of the quran and sunnah is where differences arise, that's why some say it's obligatory to cut the clitoris while others say it's "OK" but you won't get any reward for it. Or some who say it's good and allah is pleased with it, but he won't punish you if you refrain Roll Eyes

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #25 - June 24, 2014, 01:51 PM

    In June 2003 I attended this meeting in the House of Commons chaired by Jeremy Corbyn MP.  A Somali woman stood up praising FGM but was not responded to supportively....

    Quote
    15/06 You will know that I have been working closely with the Somali community and I had a very useful discussion with the Somali Welfare group in Durham Rd, organising another of the larger meetings at the House of Commons which was attended by 200 people, and a committee has now been elected. They will organise a conference on the role of the Somali community in Britain which will be held later this year. An interesting report on the social situation in Islington is available and many thanks to Ruth Clarke who has worked very hard on this and should be congratulated.


    http://www.jeremycorbyn.org.uk/?p=638


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #26 - June 24, 2014, 02:01 PM

    Quote
    Female genital mutilation (FGM)

    There is one Somali practice, however, which has done more than any other to promote an image of female oppression, and that is female genital mutilation (FGM) - also known as female circumcision. Until recently, every girl, sometimes as young as six, endured the operation in which all or part of her genitals were cut away. In the most extreme version, that of infibulation, the clitoris, labia minora and much of the labia majora are excised.The sides of the wound are then tightly stitched together, leaving a hole the size of a matchstick at the lower end of the vulva for the escape of urine and menstrual blood.With clitoridectomy, it is the clitoris and part of the labia minora which is taken out, while the least severe form, Sunna circumcision, removes the clitoral hood, or inflicts a small cut to the clitoris sufficient to draw blood. In urban areas in Somalia, the operation may take place in hospital, so avoiding the worst infections that can result from traditional excisers, using blunt unsterile instruments. But the long-term effects of infibulation - the potential complications surrounding urination, menstruation, pregnancy, childbirth and a variety of other health hazards, are the same, whilst all forms of FGM radically affect a woman’s sexuality.

    Women are seen as the repositories of family honour, and the rationale for FGM, beyond the weight of ‘tradition’, is the preservation of a young woman’s purity - her virginity and her symbolic cleanliness.Although serving a patriarchal system, FGM is perpetuated by women themselves.An uncircumcised girl would have been unable to find a husband and so become a social outcast – a fate any mother would want to avoid.The practice is now being questioned in Somalia, but is still near universal (McGown, 1999: 148).

    In the UK, research indicates that there are still Somali mothers or grandmothers who feel that the daughters of the household should be excised - 36% of Emua Ali’s sample of women defended the practice (2001: 200-202). She estimates that this has affected some 5% of girls (ibid: 28), who have been circumcised either at the hands of an operator in the UK or whilst on a visit to Somalia. Tradition dies hard - in spite of the pain it causes, generations of women have seen circumcision as intrinsic to their adult identity and they resent an important part of their culture being branded as child abuse. But now this taboo topic is beginning to be broached in public, and many Somali women and men in the UK say that the practice should
    be abandoned, particularly in its most extreme form. McGown (1999: 150-151) found that 52 out of her 60 interviewees of both sexes said that the procedure should be stopped. A key argument by campaigners is that contrary to popular belief, FGM is nowhere sanctioned by the Koran. It is not a religious obligation.Although few would dare admit it, this knowledge has encouraged some infibulated single young women to have the operation reversed, while many will now seek surgical help before their wedding night.

    In 1985, the Female Circumcision Act made the practice illegal in the UK, and in 1991 directions for the implementation of the 1989 Children Act authorised investigation by local authorities in suspected cases. On the 3rd March 2004 the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003 (Commencement) Order 2004 was enacted,
    which “makes it an offence for the first time for UK nationals or permanent UK residents to carry out female genital mutilation (FGM) abroad, or to aid, abet, counsel or procure the carrying out of FGM abroad, even in countries where the practice is legal.To reflect the serious harm that FGM causes, the Act also increases the maximum penalty from 5 to 14 years’ imprisonment”.145

    But still more effective than legislation is the hard campaigning that lies behind both legal and community change. In contrast to some western feminists’ condemnation of this ‘barbaric practice’, organisations such as the Black Women’s Health and Family Support (BWHAFS) take a holistic approach to Somali women’s problems.146 A promotional CD-ROM launched in the summer of 2003 explained that “We believe in empowering women, through education and consciousness- raising, and locating the issue of FGM within the context of black women’s rights”.147 BWHAFS offer a range of support services to women, including advice on FGM.Through contact with health, education, and social work professionals, together with religious leaders, they carry out an educational programme on the topic, and by means of research, literature, conferences, official representations, and outreach work, they aim to influence not only a British but also an international audience.

    The energetic director of BWHAFS, Shamis Dirir, is but one of a number of women who have founded Somali organisations in the UK. She has retained her position - in some other groups, men have taken over leadership, and women have been relegated to lesser ranks or voluntary workers. But in whatever capacity, women as well as men have sought to better their community through Somali associations.As a Somali proverb says,‘you can only quench your thirst by lifting water with your own hands’.


    http://www.icar.org.uk/somalicommunityreport.pdf

    June 2004

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #27 - June 24, 2014, 02:04 PM

    It's a question of how you classify the narrations and their authenticity, as well as a question of interpreting the text itself and whether a mubah/mustahabb or wajib position is conveyed.

    Also, don't forget that there's a lot of sneaky double messages going around. You have to make a distinction between FGM and cliterecdomy. According to Islamic law, the least that could be said is that it is permissable (according to hadeeth). The Islamic practice is when you cut of parts of the clitoris. FGM is when you go beyond that. In Somalia, FGM has been on a decline lately, only to be replaced by cliterecdomy as the "pure Islamic practice". So maybe these people say FGM is haram, but classical sunni fiqh has ALWAYS deemed it to be haram. Cliterecdomy on the other hand cannot be classed as haram, "if the hadeeth is saheeh, we accept it". It's a fundamental principle, and no authentic text can be abandoned for any maqsad or qaaidah (Islamic gemeral/universal or lesser principle), because quran and sunnah takes prescedence over any other method in usool/fiqh. This is basically the one thing that all school of thoughts agree upon: quran, sunnah and ijmah of the scolars can't be messed with Smiley the interpretation of the quran and sunnah is where differences arise, that's why some say it's obligatory to cut the clitoris while others say it's "OK" but you won't get any reward for it. Or some who say it's good and allah is pleased with it, but he won't punish you if you refrain Roll Eyes


    IIRC, didn't Mohammed say not too much should be taken away as it is more desirable for the man?

    Which is why FGM, the severe form of it, can easily be said to be unislamic.

    The lesser form on the other hand, is closer to male circumcision.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #28 - June 24, 2014, 02:19 PM

    Yep, don't cut the whole clit. Just parts of it. Not because of the woman's right to her own sexuality, but because the husband will like it better that way. Says a lot, doesn't it?

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Council Of Muslims declares FGM ' Un-Islamic
     Reply #29 - June 24, 2014, 02:25 PM

    Says what Islam always say.

    "woman, you are a piece of meat, season, spice and prepare yourself properly, so that you can be digested and discarded in hell afterwards"

    All hail Is-lame. 

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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