Things Islam didn't know, or fuck up

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OP - June 25, 2014, 02:23 PM

In my opinion, Islamic law, practices and beliefs pretty clearly shows how the founders behind the faith had little knowledge of the world around them. I thought of maybe compiling/discussing different illogical practices or things that just don't make any sense outside the time and place where Islam first emerged.I can begin, so please add or discuss I think this can be very interesting for all of us, and in particular helpful for "doubter" or "new ex-Muslims" who are still not sure about Islam.

1. Divorce by al Dhihar (See in Mujaadilah:1-5 and Al Ahzaab:3)

So divorce by al dhihar is basically when the man says "you are like the back of my mother" to his wife, consequently making her "unlawful". The woman cannot be fully divorced, thus unable to remarry, nor is she viewed as the man's wife with all the "marital rights" (like intimacy, maintenance etc). Islam forbade this practice, dedicating even a soorah in the Quran for this issue.

Personally, I find it odd that allah, who revealed the Quran for all people and all time, would include such an extremely culturally specific practice in his lawf al mahfoodh. I mean, this Quran is supposedly allah's uncreated and unchanging word, preserved on a tablet in the heavens, and in this uncreated speech are the details about something 7th century Arabs practiced. I've never heard about any similar practice in other cultures, nor do I see it's relevance today.

Perhaps someone would argue, but there is a general principle that can be derived from this. A husband is not allowed to keep the wife and preventing her from remarrying, while not treating or living with her as his rightful wife. But allah already mentioned this in more general terms in other places in the quran (either live with them "honourably", or divorce from them "honourably"), so it seems that these verses were meant to specifically tackle this specific issue.

Don't we have other much more important and relevant issues to mention in the Quran? Issues that are affecting millions of women and men not only just right now, but have for centuries and for centuries to come (if we are pessimistic). On top of my head, the wife-beating verse or why not discuss female "circumcision", or what about child marriage (well, some would say allah already gave thumbs up for that one in the Quran). The "miraculous" nature of the Quran and its "holiness" as "god's speech" just seems very silly in light of this.

2. Lunar calender and calculating time according to the sun's movement

Personally, I think this is one of the most telling aspects of how Islamic law and practice is clearly not for all time and place. Didn't allah know that people would be fasting in places where the sun never sets or rises during certain periods of the year? What about those who have to fast for 20 hours? Didn't allah know that people would be praying in places where fajr will start around 2:00 and ishah will begin around 23:00? Or that sometimes fajr is 7:00 and isha is 16:00.

All the "reasons" and "wisdom" behind fasting and prayer are rendered totally meaningless under these circumstances. If prayer is keeping fahshaa and fasaad away from me, then what about when I have to fit in five daily prayers between 8:00-16:00? What about the rest of the day? No prayer to protect me?! :( Also, you can't live a normal and functioning life when you have to make ablution and pray every second or third hour.

And what about fasting, which is supposed to increase me in "taqwa". You know, I don't know how much taqwa I can attain if I only skip breakfast and eat a late lunch, or of I starve myself slowly and then binge between 23:00-2:00. You are completely unproductive and can barely function physically let alone mentally with no water or food during so many hours.

This is why lunar calender and calculating time after the sun's movements just shows how arabocentric Islam is, and that Islam's founders knew very little about the world they lived in (most probably), or perhaps didn't give a shit because they didn't think it would spread that far (or didn't care, they would already be dead).

I'll stop here, but please add and discuss!

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Reply #1 - June 25, 2014, 03:00 PM

Nice thread. I think the amount of time the Qur'an spends talking about cattle gives an interesting look into the importance those animals played in the lives of the Arabs. The Qur'an talks about camels and goats so much that one would think, given the fact that the book claims to be for all people and all times, that God must have considered these beasts to be an integral part of the lives of humans everywhere, perhaps even now if we are still meant to build our lives around the teachings of this book.

Quote
Have they not considered the camel - how it was created? (Al-Ghashiyah)
They shall drink like the drinking of sick, thirsty camels!(Al-Waqi'ah)
Verily, (hell) throws sparks as castles. As though they were yellow camels. (Al-Mursalaat)
And the sacrificial camels we have made for you of the signs of Allah. So recite the name of Allah over them in rows. (Al-Hajj)

And so on. You'd think everyone everywhere would be familiar with the importance of camels.

Also, I always thought the condemnation of the superstitious Arabian practice of making certain genders of animals prohibited for certain people to be a bizarre thing to have included in the final and eternal revelation to mankind. Most people who read these verses can have no idea what they are even talking about. They are wastes of precious space.

Quote
6:142And of the cattle (are some) for burden (like camels etc.) and (some are) small (unable to carry burden like sheep, goats etc. for food, meat, milk, wool etc.). Eat of what Allah has provided for you, and follow not the footsteps of Shaitan (Satan). Surely he is to you an open enemy.
6:143 Eight pairs; of the sheep two (male and female), and of the goats two (male and female). Say: "Has He forbidden the two males or the two females, or (the young) which the wombs of the two females enclose? Inform me with knowledge if you are truthful."
6:144 And of the camels two (male and female), and of oxen two (male and female). Say: "Has He forbidden the two males or the two females or (the young) which the wombs of the two females enclose? Or were you present when Allah ordered you such a thing? Then who does more wrong than one who invents a lie against Allah, to lead mankind astray without knowledge. Certainly Allah guides not the people who are Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers, etc.)."

This condemnation takes place only a few verses before condoning supposed Hebrew superstitions regarding cattle and mentioning that these superstitious restrictions were somehow punishments from God:

Quote
And unto those who are Jews, We forbade every (animal) with undivided hoof, and We forbade them the fat of the ox and the sheep except what adheres to their backs or their entrails, or is mixed up with a bone. Thus We recompensed them for their rebellion [committing crimes like murdering the Prophets, eating of Riba (usury), etc.]. And verily, We are Truthful.

It is unsettling to think that the all wise creator of the universe used his last communication with the world to talk about goats and camels. All the while, he was curiously silent about beasts deemed essential to other cultures like the llama, the yak, or the great American bison.

So many of the "signs" mentioned in the Qur'an are really just a commentary on desert Arab life.
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Reply #2 - June 25, 2014, 03:24 PM

Very interesting and good point. Like what the shariah deems to be "staple food" for giving sadaqa or expiation, which allah doesn't understand is not the same for people all over the world. In Mexico, maize is the staple food. But it's not only the geographical issue, but also about time. In the West today, we don't go around and sell goats or cows on a market. We can't buy 5 kg of wheat and give it to a "poor" person. It doesn't really work that way.

In the verses I mentioned about al Dhihar, allah also speaks about freeing slaves as expiation. Maybe this was relevant during a period of time when slavery was still in existing (some would argue slavery still exists, but in another form). It also shows that Islam did not come to absolve slavery, because without slavery a lot of the "expiation" fiqh becomes obsolete. Is that really a system that works in all places and times? What about cultures and civilizations that don't practice slavery, which Muslim apologetics would say Islam came to remove, who are introduced to this practice through the Quran. Isn't that really sad?

Also, lets speak about the dates. Dates are a very important "sunnah". Everything from the tahneek of the new born, to breaking fast with it, and it's one of the "prophet's food and medicine". Dates don't grow everywhere, and only through "modern" import, Muslims in other parts of the world outside the Middle East have been able to eat this prophetic food

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Reply #3 - June 25, 2014, 03:29 PM

Quote
Also, lets speak about the dates. Roll Eyes Dates are a very important "sunnah". Everything from the tahneek of the new born, to breaking fast with it, and it's one of the "prophet's food and medicine". Dates don't grow everywhere, and only through "modern" import, Muslims in other parts of the world outside the Middle East have been able to eat this prophetic food

YES!!! I've often said that if Muhammad was from the United States, it would be sunnah to break the fast with apples. There would be certain types of apple that were closer to the sunnah and would be believed to have special powers. Muslims in the Middle East would have to import apples from Washington state or where ever in order to practice this sunnah. Jannah, of course, would be full of apple, peach, pear, and plum trees.
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Reply #4 - June 25, 2014, 03:33 PM

^It was actually that argument with someone that lead me to write this:

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"By the apple and the blueberry.
And the Great Smoky Mountains
And my beautiful home state of North Carolina
Surely, mankind has evolved the greatest mind of all creatures
Yet he uses it to believe in the most foolish nonsense
Except those who think rationally, and who value modern science, for they may truly appreciate the wonders of the universe.
So what then causes you to be so gullible?
Is not the use of reason most reasonable."
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Reply #5 - June 25, 2014, 03:36 PM

And if Islamic had begun in a rainforest we'd all be enjoined to near-nudity.
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Reply #6 - June 25, 2014, 03:40 PM

Could you imagine the explanations at work? "I have to walk around like this, sir. It's a religious requirement."
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Reply #7 - June 25, 2014, 03:45 PM

Behold pumpkins, the holy food of heaven.
Behold corn, the holy food of earth.

Just like Johnny Flynn said, the breath I've taken and the one I must to go on.
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Reply #8 - June 25, 2014, 03:48 PM

Another point about culture, and "imitating" the kuffar or men/women. We are basically ordered to conform to gender roles and practices that 7th century Arabs in the Arabian Peninsula were practicing. Not much universality. If something is very outlandish or deviant from this "standard" or "norm", then it becomes for example imitation of the kuffar. That is why we have so many fatwas, especially from the "early period", that pants are haram for women, or that earrings and other jewelry for men are impermissible.

But why is it imitating women if a man wears an earring, if he comes from a culture where this is not deemed "feminine"? Why should Arab culture be the norm? What about women living in places where it becomes very impractical to avoid wearing pants? If it gets below 10 degrees Celcius, it's not very smart to not wear pants, even under the abaya or whatever. What about is who have it -15 degrees during winter :(

That's the arabocentrism again that is Islam, really. There's no account or regard for Muslims who come from other cultures, live in different times or who live in very different circumstances than Arabian deserts. It's like the camel all over again. Remember the hadith about earning reward like a red camel, if you make a person accept Islam? In what way does a "red camel" convey exactly how much reward I get for that accomplishment? It tells me nothing, because it is not only culturally bound, but I think that most khaleeji Arabs won't be able to understand the "value" of a red camel. Maybe 7th century (chocolate) khaleejis did, but what about today? ()

Islam's whole universal, "for all time, places and people", claims just go right down the drain.

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Reply #9 - June 25, 2014, 03:48 PM

Quote from: josephus on June 25, 2014, 03:36 PM
And if Islamic had begun in a rainforest we'd all be enjoined to near-nudity.

Honestly though, the Islamic dress codes are another culturally specific issue. To illustrate, I remember reading that the famed traveler Ibn Batutah was expelled from an island Muslim nation where he had served as a judge for decreeing that women had to cover their breasts. As this practice was unheard of, cumbersome, and against all practical traditions, they got rid of him.

Also, the prohibition on isbal (having your garments below your ankles) for men is another Arab-specific thing. Normal length pants are not a symbol of arrogance in most societies, at least most western societies. I cant't tell you how many salafi men's ankles freeze each year because of this stupid rule. The sunnah is for a man's lower garment to go no lower than the half way point of the shin. Even in the blistering cold of North East American winters, you have salafis out there dressed with their shins and ankles exposed.
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Reply #10 - June 25, 2014, 03:52 PM

@ Cornflower: I had that discussion with a guy telling me it was haram for my wife to wear jeans in the house because it was an "imitation of men." How is wearing women's jeans an imitation of men?
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Reply #11 - June 25, 2014, 03:58 PM

Quote from: josephus on June 25, 2014, 03:36 PM
And if Islamic had begun in a rainforest we'd all be enjoined to near-nudity.

I can just imagine the scene " it is sunnah to wear a koteka, it is my islamic right" lol

With regards to mens short pants, why is the rule different for men and women ? I never understood it why a woman should have her garment trailing at the back in the dirt so that it nulifies prayer.
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Reply #12 - June 25, 2014, 03:59 PM

Because women have to stay covered because they are a fitnah, duh!
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Reply #13 - June 25, 2014, 04:02 PM

Going a bit ot, but covering up your body is more important for women than any "pride". But we are only allowed to lengthen our garment half an arms length (and even that is fucking looooong). Also, it doesn't nullify, because the fuqaha managed to get around that by saying that the "pure" dirt removes any impurity that may be on the garment.

@HM: That is very interesting, I've never heard about that before. =)

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Reply #14 - June 25, 2014, 04:04 PM

If Islam was in the rain forest it would have made chewing Coca Leaves haram.
Incidently they're awesome.

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Reply #15 - June 25, 2014, 04:07 PM

I was just reading about the short pants, i always presumed it was for cleanliness and purity in prayer, but it was to do with pride, in moh's day the rich and proud dragged their garments in a trail so he decided to wear his short.. Hence the gorgeous muslim fashion today of short pants and flipflops lol
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Reply #16 - June 25, 2014, 04:11 PM

Don't forget socks showing...

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Reply #17 - June 25, 2014, 04:21 PM

Quote from: Cornflower on June 25, 2014, 04:02 PM
Going a bit ot, but covering up your body is more important for women than any "pride". But we are only allowed to lengthen our garment half an arms length (and even that is fucking looooong). Also, it doesn't nullify, because the fuqaha managed to get around that by saying that the "pure" dirt removes any impurity that may be on the garment.

@HM: That is very interesting, I've never heard about that before. =)

Ah yes, i forget my islam.. still the length was a pain to wear, i would on rare occasion arrive home with bits of chewing gum stuck to my garment.. Sorry i got off topic.. I can't think of anything that is universal in the quran, it all relates to the time, place and culture, all of it.
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Reply #18 - June 25, 2014, 04:24 PM

This may be off topic a little, but it connects in my mind. Wilfred Thesiger was a British explorer who journeyed through Arabia in the 40's and 50's. His photos and writings give insight into just how primitive and geographically specific the culture of the inhabitants of Arabia was even 70 years ago. While I'm not suggesting that our cultures are necessarily better, look at these pictures closely and just think about the implications of using the laws and rules of a villager from this setting who claimed to speak to god as a guide for life in the 21st century.

This is the Hejaz, Muhammad's homeland, in the 1940's. The people you see are likely not much different from the illiterate prophet and companions revered by faithful Muslims, though the prophet and his companions could only have been much more primitive 1350 years earlier. Muhammad, Abu Bakr, and Umar could have been any of these guys in the crowd:

Do we really think that a self-proclaimed holy man and war hero from that community could have detailed insight on how people should live here:

or here:
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Reply #19 - June 25, 2014, 04:26 PM

Quote from: Cornflower on June 25, 2014, 03:48 PM
Another point about culture, and "imitating" the kuffar or men/women.

this not imitating the kuffar is massive amongst Salafis, especially in the West where Islam seems to manifest itself in ways of differentiation. Tablighi Jamaat is massive on this too. Its all about differentiation, separating.

Its also quite 'phobic' towards others isn't it?

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Reply #20 - June 25, 2014, 04:43 PM

Quote from: happymurtad on June 25, 2014, 04:24 PM
. While I'm not suggesting that our cultures are necessarily better, look at these pictures closely and just think about the implications of using the laws and rules of a villager from this setting who claimed to speak to god as a guide for life in the 21st century.

the way they explain this is that there are 'eternal' values that 'transcend' their local context, which basically just means trying to retrofit modern values onto what they claim Islam said. The whole thing is a mess and a charade.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Reply #21 - June 25, 2014, 04:55 PM

That would work if Islam was only an abstract set of values and ideals. It's not, though. It has regulations for every single detail of human existence. While those rules may have made lots of sense in the 7th century, they are mostly useless and cumbersome headaches in the modern world.
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Reply #22 - June 25, 2014, 05:04 PM

As I think more about it, I think people mentioning arguments like the one you brought up, billy, really have not spent time reading the Qur'an. People often try to make it seem as though only the ahadith and the "cultural" rulings of the scholars contain absurd and outdated practices. They make the Qur'an out to be some timeless book of holy wisdom. To them I say, "read through it!" The book is filled with all sorts of weird practices, rules, and hate of the "disbeliever." It's a terrible book if you don't actually believe in it.
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Reply #23 - June 25, 2014, 05:14 PM

Quote from: happymurtad on June 25, 2014, 04:55 PM
That would work if Islam was only an abstract set of values and ideals. It's not, though. It has regulations for every single detail of human existence. While those rules may have made lots of sense in the 7th century, they are mostly useless and cumbersome headaches in the modern world.

Exactly. This idea of Islam as a Platonic ideal, a pure set of values, a pure form of perfection and abstract ideals is so desperate and dishonest, but its the card that apologists who don't want to face up to the reality pull out and play constantly these days.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Reply #24 - June 25, 2014, 05:18 PM

CF...what an outstanding thread. I wish I could contribute but mind is utterly exhausted from marking 100+ books as it was work scrutiny today I'm shattered but I agree with all of the contributors here - Islam is actually an amalgamation of Arabo-Persian culture that became sacralised with token pieces of other cultures added on to it as the Islamic dynasty evolved and fragmented.

The Qur'an is revealed in ARABIC...a language that did not have a developed writing system and was localised to a specific area of the world.

The Qur'an refers to prophets and events that are regional specific to the Near/Middle East.

The Qur'an is immersed with folklore specific to, though not restricted by, Arab culture e.g. Djinns, talking baby Jesus and Dhul Qarnayn.

The Qur'an demonstrates at times a rudimenatary understanding of the natural sciences that were predominant during the 7th century.

The Qur'an mentions Christianity, Judaism, Arab paganism (Magis? Zorastrianism?) but a complete ignorance of other religious/spiritual practices from other cultures around the world.

In the Qur'an Hell is a hot place because for Arabs the heat is their kryptonite (thirst, starvation, unsuitable to grow crops) whereas if Muhammad were British I'm sure Hell would be a place that would be cursed with eternal torrential downpour and umbrellas that folded inside out once you opened them (for the extremely bad, soggy neswpapers).

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Reply #25 - June 25, 2014, 05:18 PM

Quote from: happymurtad on June 25, 2014, 05:04 PM
As I think more about it, I think people mentioning arguments like the one you brought up, billy, really have not spent time reading the Qur'an.

I've found this is the line that mainstream Muslim apologists make to non Muslims.

Its basically them trying to save face, but there's so much dishonesty about on this matter.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Reply #26 - June 25, 2014, 05:33 PM

I agree with what you said Jedi about hellfire, i often thought this too, that suffering related to the extreme heat of the arab desert life and the coolness of Jennah was relief of the heat, basically descibring an oasis with cool waters.. Simple logic, yes i guess if i were to describle hell living in the UK it would be rain and grey clouds, heaven would be warm and cosy.
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Reply #27 - June 25, 2014, 05:44 PM

Quote from: Cornflower on June 25, 2014, 03:24 PM
Also, lets speak about the dates. Dates are a very important "sunnah". Everything from the tahneek of the new born, to breaking fast with it, and it's one of the "prophet's food and medicine". Dates don't grow everywhere, and only through "modern" import, Muslims in other parts of the world outside the Middle East have been able to eat this prophetic food

Scientists don't actually know where dates originated. The original scientific view was that they originated in Pakistan, then they were domesticated into edible forms there and then imported into the Middle East in the Neolithic Era. Although that theory is no longer water tight anymore. There are wild versions of the Date Palm in India and Pakistan (Phoenix Sylvestris) and in Greece (Phoenix Theophrasti). There are no wild forms of the species in the Middle East, at least not anymore.

In terms of Islam being region specific, you are supposed to grow beards, but most Native American men cannot grow beards.
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Reply #28 - June 25, 2014, 05:48 PM

Quote from: suki on June 25, 2014, 05:33 PM
I agree with what you said Jedi about hellfire, i often thought this too, that suffering related to the extreme heat of the arab desert life and the coolness of Jennah was relief of the heat, basically descibring an oasis with cool waters.. Simple logic, yes i guess if i were to describle hell living in the UK it would be rain and grey clouds, heaven would be warm and cosy.

I know exactly. When you describe Hell to someone in the UK, not indoctrinated in to superstitious nonsense, their reaction would be 'Oh that's nice, we could do with a spot of sunshine.'

No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
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Reply #29 - June 25, 2014, 05:52 PM

Quote from: Tonyt on June 25, 2014, 05:44 PM
Scientists don't actually know where dates originated. The original scientific view was that they originated in Pakistan, then they were domesticated into edible forms there and then imported into the Middle East in the Neolithic Era. Although that theory is no longer water tight anymore. There are wild versions of the Date Palm in India and Pakistan (Phoenix Sylvestris) and in Greece (Phoenix Theophrasti). There are no wild forms of the species in the Middle East, at least not anymore.

In terms of Islam being region specific, you are supposed to grow beards, but most Native American men cannot grow beards.

I've thought of something similar before with regards to the camel thing. Research now suggests that the ancestors of camels and llamas originated in the Americas. It's funny to think that this beast hailed as a miracle of Allah and forever enshrined in holy tablets in heaven might actually have been descended from an animal that lived in Missouri.
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