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 Topic: Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams

 (Read 48829 times)
  • Previous page 1 23 4 ... 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #30 - June 29, 2014, 07:23 PM

    Bigmo, if you consider someone challenging your irrational, deluded, sanitised version of Islam as 'being hostile' then that's a problem you have.

    No ones persecuting you. Get over the victim complex. The real victims are the ones who are suffering as a consequence of the idiocies inscribed within that nonsense book you elevate above all else.

    Tell me, do you consider the Quran to be a literary miracle?

    Does the Quran contain scientific miracles?

    Who is Dhul Qarnayn and what of the Final Days?

    The Quran fails on grounds of intolerance as it condemns non believers simply for not believing. What a tyrannical ruler this Allah is.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #31 - June 29, 2014, 07:24 PM

    Certainly, you would end up with some of those things without the hadith (wifebeating or cutting of hand of thief), but as you can see my comment was about quranism, the sect, not that you without hadith end up with those things.

    Then I made a general statement about that you without the hadith have a smaller minefield.  Without the hadith, the positive parts can negate negative parts on issues dealing with law, or you would end up with contradictions




    Sorry my bad.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #32 - June 29, 2014, 07:27 PM

    Wrong. All are still applicable and justified practices in certain contexts as prescribed in their respective ayats. Only the stoning for adultery is exclusively derived from non-quranic source.


    That is not relevant in Islamic traditions since apostasy law, the 5 pillars of Islam, circumcision, the black stone and stoning the devil ritual and flogging people for alcohol are not mentioned at all in the Quran. The Islamic traditions do not need any reference in the Quran to pass something. Plus stoning the adulterer s claimed by them to have actually been a Quranic verse but was lost. So to them they simply look at the hadith literature and then see if they can find any reference they can spin, if not they can always claim that it was there and got lost. And if there is contradictions, they simply abrogate the verses of the Quran that contradicts their hadiths as the case with their apostasy law. The hadiths fixes the Quran to them and not vice versa.
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #33 - June 29, 2014, 07:29 PM

    You do realise that the Quran is no more reliable than the Hadith do you, since they were both collected by humans, interpreted by humans and edited by humans.

    How do you know that your Quran is THE Quran?

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #34 - June 29, 2014, 07:58 PM

    That is not relevant in Islamic traditions since apostasy law, the 5 pillars of Islam, circumcision, the black stone and stoning the devil ritual and flogging people for alcohol are not mentioned at all in the Quran. The Islamic traditions do not need any reference in the Quran to pass something. Plus stoning the adulterer s claimed by them to have actually been a Quranic verse but was lost...........

    Hmm A verse is Lost from Quran., How?  did a goat ate that verse??

    Well  A verse is Lost from Quran and Allah, almighty  supreme super ruler of all this  universe  I see here has no power to put it back..  I wonder how powerful is this allah god? It  sounds like useless doll inside the skull of unevolved human species..
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #35 - June 29, 2014, 08:01 PM

    I disagree. Ex muslims who have these hositilities do not have power over Muslims. But we know from communism that when this strong anti religion trend takes power they can practice persecutions against religions. It starts with not being objectionable. If you look at my opening post, i made it clear that Sunni Islam deliberately avoided the more controversial aspects of Islamic traditions. But they lost control in recent times since the literature of the past is now available to the masses giving those who have extremist personalities an opening. It also makes those who may wish to leave Islam or any other religion second thoughts since they may not feel that level of hostility. I guess it depends on how you define hostility. Once people have power over others these hostilities can take action form. At least thats how I look at it.


    That's what laws protecting freedom are there for , i.e Establishment Clause of US First Amendment.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #36 - June 29, 2014, 08:18 PM

    You do realise that the Quran is no more reliable than the Hadith do you, since they were both collected by humans, interpreted by humans and edited by humans.

    How do you know that your Quran is THE Quran?



    I don't. Its about faith.
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #37 - June 29, 2014, 08:22 PM

    Its what you possessed as a partner without dowry. Its not about owning anyone. In marriages there is an oath. Ma malakat aymanukum is a partnership established by oath only. There is no dowry and therefore its risky especially for a woman since there is no protection for her. Its the same with urfi marriages in Arab countries where a person signs a contract of marriage and then throws it away claiming he never married that women. But it is a Quranic accepted marriage but not advisable. The Quran says this kind of marriage should only be done an an exception but to be done with good intentions. It also encouraged this type of arrangement to be elevated by paying dowry or some financial arrangement and informing family members and to give the contract to the women if she demands. In modern days its like a boyfriend and girlfriend situation where a formal marriage does not exist carrying risk for a women in case the man tried to leave the child with her and end their relationship. Or even deny the child is his etc.


    What does a woman need protection from? What is the point of a dowry? For what?

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #38 - June 29, 2014, 08:27 PM

    Financials for children.
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #39 - June 29, 2014, 08:28 PM

    I don't. Its about faith.


    At least you're honest.  yes

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #40 - June 29, 2014, 08:35 PM

    Financials for children.


    Why would a woman have children, expecting someone else to pay for them? So what happens when her husband gets sick or dies? She would walk away? Nope. So that doesn't make sense.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #41 - June 29, 2014, 08:35 PM

    Well in reality Im not sure if there is a sharp edge between Islam with hadith and Quranism, since some can accept a few a hadith. The mutazilah although not quranist wholly, were far more rigorous in requirement hadiths authenticity when it came to basic beliefs.


    There is no difference between Quranist and Mutazilites or Ahlul Kalam as some called them. They are the same crowd. Anyone in the Islamic traditions that do not follow oral traditions or considers them non binding will follow the same Islam.

    There are four major types of Quranist.

    1. Accept Quran and and hadith that does not contradict Quran.
    2. Accept Quran and Islamic rituals or other religious rituals but not hadiths.
    3. Accept Quran and previous scriptures like Old Testament and Gospel.
    4. Only accept the Quran.
    5. Varying between these categories depending on specific issues (most Quranist tend to be here).

    All reject any abrogation of any verse in the Quran.
    All accept only explicit verses of Quran as binding.

    The Mutaziltes rejected any form of abrogation of the Quran although some Islamic historians try to deny that. It is this issue (abrogation) that was the most contentious issue between the Mutaziltes and the Sunni orthodoxy. This is also the issue that separates Quranist from the Islamic sects.
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #42 - June 29, 2014, 08:35 PM

    I don't. Its about faith.


    Then everything you've written is a waste of time since you ascribe a degree of certainty to a text that does not deserve it.

    I appreciate the honesty.

    My suggestion: If you have to deceive yourself in order to humanise the Qur'an and go to such lengths to make yourself comfortable with it, then it's not worth it. My advice: Leave Islam; preserve your sanity.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #43 - June 29, 2014, 08:39 PM

    The Mutaziltes rejected any form of abrogation of the Quran although some Islamic historians try to deny that. It is this issue (abrogation) that was the most contentious issue between the Mutaziltes and the Sunni orthodoxy. This is also the issue that separates Quranist from the Islamic sects.


    I think know that the consensus amongst the scholars is that the major difference was in the 'createdness' or the 'uncreatedness' of the Qur'an. Abrogation was also an issue, but not as controversial as the challenging the immortality/timeless nature of the Quran.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #44 - June 29, 2014, 08:39 PM

    Why would a woman have children, expecting someone else to pay for them? So what happens when her husband gets sick or dies? She would walk away? Nope. So that doesn't make sense.




    EGYPT: Landmark paternity case highlights dangers of urfi marriage


    CAIRO, 5 June 2006 (IRIN) - Activists and experts working on women’s rights issues warned of the dangers of a general lack of information regarding urfi marriage, a phenomenon that is becoming increasingly common in Egypt.

    “It’s the lack of understanding of what exactly urfi marriage entails that ends up creating a host of problems for the female party,” said Heba Loza, an expert on women’s issues and writer with semi-official newspaper Al-Ahram.

    Urfi marriages, commonly defined as marital unions lacking an official contract, are often carried out in secret. For the most part, those who choose to be married by way of an urfi contract are young couples who do not have parental consent or who cannot afford a wedding. “In reality, most of those who resort to urfi marriages are young couples seeking to legitimise a sexual relationship,” said Heba. “Many cannot afford a wedding, while many others don’t have the consent of their parents. To them, urfi marriages provide an alternative.”

    Although urfi marriages are sanctioned by Islam, Egypt’s majority religion, conducting them in secret – without the consent of couples’ families – is not.

    In urfi marriages, conducted by a Muslim cleric and usually in the presence of at least two witnesses , only two copies of the marriage contract are produced – one for each party. “Hence, there is always the danger that one party will deny the marriage ever took place,” said Heba. “In most cases, it’s the man.”

    This is especially common when a child is born. “Unless witnesses are present while the contracts are being signed and the marriage has been announced publicly, the marriage is effectively null and void in the eyes of the law,” Heba said. “Therefore, the woman’s rights in marriage cannot be protected, nor is the father automatically bound to share responsibility for the child.”

    Such was the case in the high-profile case of Hind al-Hinnawy and actor Ahmed al-Feshawy, whose story of urfi marriage and a disputed child became the centre of national controversy last year. It finally came to a close on 24 May, however, when a Cairo appeals court ruled in favour of Hind, who, by way of witnesses’ testimonies, established al-Feshawy’s legal paternity of the child. “The outcome of the trial was very positive,” said Huda Badran, chairman of the Cairo-based Arab Alliance for Women. “The result enshrined the rights of the child, who up until then had none.”

    According to Huda, the case should serve as a warning to young people considering urfi unions as an alternative to officially sanctioned marriages. “Perhaps this case has made both young men and women a little more aware of the risks involved in urfi marriages,” she said. “Al-Feshawy must now comply against his will to the responsibilities of fatherhood, which he believed he could escape, while al-Hinnawy had to fight hard to secure her rights and those of her daughter.”

    Government statistics show that approximately 14,000 similar paternity cases are currently pending trial. “Activists tell me they believe the number is actually closer to a million,” said Heba.

    http://www.irinnews.org/report/26954/egypt-landmark-paternity-case-highlights-dangers-of-urfi-marriage


    This is what the Quran is warning about.
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #45 - June 29, 2014, 08:43 PM

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    But the Qur'an does not take into account that women can work; are not dependent upon men for financial support; that the state supports women and that rather than tackling the malicious patriarchy inherent in such cultures/socities Islam merely glosses over it and reinforces the nonsense without providing any original or proactive solutions that will allow women to unshackle herself from the men.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #46 - June 29, 2014, 08:50 PM

    Jedi are you suggesting a man should have no responsibility to his children?
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #47 - June 29, 2014, 08:52 PM

    I think know that the consensus amongst the scholars is that the major difference was in the 'createdness' or the 'uncreatedness' of the Qur'an. Abrogation was also an issue, but not as controversial as the challenging the immortality/timeless nature of the Quran.



    In Shāfi'ī's source theory the possibility of abrogation between the Sunna and the Qur'ān was vehemently denied:

    Arguing determinedly that any verbal discrepancies between the Qur'ān and the reported sayings or reports of the practices of Muhammed- the Sunna of the Prophet- were merely illusory and could always be removed on the basis of a satisfactory understanding of the mechanism of revelation and the function of the prophet-figure, Shāfi'ī set his face decidedly against any acceptance of the idea then current that in all such cases the Qur'ān had abrogated the Sunna, or the Sunna the Qur'ān.[12][13]

    This stance was a reaction to larger developments within Islamic jurisprudence, particularly the reformulation of the Fiqh away from early foreign or regional influences[14] and toward more eminently Islamic bases such as the Qur'ān. This assertion of Qur'ānic primacy was accompanied by calls for an abandonment of the Sunna. Shāfi'ī's insistence upon the impossibility of contradiction between Sunna and Qur'ān can thus be seen as one component in this larger effort of rescuing the Sunna:

    He campaigned tirelessly to justify use of the Sunna as the second primary source alongside the Kur'ān against those who would accord the hadīth no role in the derivation of the sharī'a on the argument that the degree of conflict in the hadīth, the inadequacies of the guarantee against corruption, fraud or error afforded by the isnāds rendered the hadīth unfit for the sacred role of declaring the divine intent underlying the Kur'ān's declarations.[15]

    Asked point-blank whether the Sunna could ever be abrogated by the Qur'ān, Shāfi'ī had bluntly replied [in the Risāla] that that could never happen. Were the Sunna to be abrogated by the Qur'ān, the Prophet would immediately introduce a second sunna to indicate that his first sunna had been abrogated by his second sunna- in order to demonstrate that a thing can be abrogated only by its like (mithlihi) [ cf. Q.2:106].[16]

    Later scholars, writing when the juridical legitimacy of the Sunna could be taken for granted (thanks largely to Shāfi'ī's efforts!), were less inclined to adopt his inflexible stance. To their minds the reality of this sort of inter-source abrogation was proven by several "indisputable" instances: the changing of the qibla towards Mecca and away from Jerusalem, and the introduction of the penalty of stoning for adultery.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_(tafsir)

    The people who were challenging Al Shafi were the Mutaziltes or the Ahlul Kalam as some called them. They rejected abrogation. Sunni and Shia Islam rely exclusively on abrogation but they rarely pin point that in public because they fear Muslims will reject the concept that Quranic verses can be abrogated.  My initial post highlighted that.
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #48 - June 29, 2014, 08:52 PM

    Quote
    I disagree. Ex muslims who have these hositilities do not have power over Muslims. But we know from communism that when this strong anti religion trend takes power they can practice persecutions against religions................

     
    I don't. Its about faith.


     Just a correction to Big Mo.,  Ex-Muslims have no hostilities with Muslims either now or in the past.  Through out history of Islam "it is  the Muslim who had and who have hostilities against ex-Muslims.

    No., you are wrong about communism.,  It is a   religion, those who follow communism have books, manuals and even rituals .,   they support state based totalitarian political system..

    Ex-Muslims have no such aims, no such goals,  no books,  no manuals and no rituals,  They only want freedom, freedom to   question faith of 1000 year old stupid religious books,  that are collected / written by some cave dwelling fools who died long ago., We question bookish rituals and the nonsense in those books.  

    And you know Islam is a faith Big Mo..,  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #49 - June 29, 2014, 09:20 PM

    The ''scholars'' have made Islam what it is today. ''Let there be no compulsion''..yeah that only applies to christians and jews...maybe zoroastrians.. and the hadith makes those kind of things easier
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #50 - June 29, 2014, 09:22 PM

    I disagree. Ex muslims who have these hositilities do not have power over Muslims. But we know from communism that when this strong anti religion trend takes power they can practice persecutions against religions.

    Equally true of the religious. Good argument for secularism.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #51 - June 29, 2014, 09:27 PM



    EGYPT: Landmark paternity case highlights dangers of urfi marriage


    CAIRO, 5 June 2006 (IRIN) - Activists and experts working on women’s rights issues warned of the dangers of a general lack of information regarding urfi marriage, a phenomenon that is becoming increasingly common in Egypt.

    “It’s the lack of understanding of what exactly urfi marriage entails that ends up creating a host of problems for the female party,” said Heba Loza, an expert on women’s issues and writer with semi-official newspaper Al-Ahram.

    Urfi marriages, commonly defined as marital unions lacking an official contract, are often carried out in secret. For the most part, those who choose to be married by way of an urfi contract are young couples who do not have parental consent or who cannot afford a wedding. “In reality, most of those who resort to urfi marriages are young couples seeking to legitimise a sexual relationship,” said Heba. “Many cannot afford a wedding, while many others don’t have the consent of their parents. To them, urfi marriages provide an alternative.”

    Although urfi marriages are sanctioned by Islam, Egypt’s majority religion, conducting them in secret – without the consent of couples’ families – is not.

    In urfi marriages, conducted by a Muslim cleric and usually in the presence of at least two witnesses , only two copies of the marriage contract are produced – one for each party. “Hence, there is always the danger that one party will deny the marriage ever took place,” said Heba. “In most cases, it’s the man.”

    This is especially common when a child is born. “Unless witnesses are present while the contracts are being signed and the marriage has been announced publicly, the marriage is effectively null and void in the eyes of the law,” Heba said. “Therefore, the woman’s rights in marriage cannot be protected, nor is the father automatically bound to share responsibility for the child.”

    Such was the case in the high-profile case of Hind al-Hinnawy and actor Ahmed al-Feshawy, whose story of urfi marriage and a disputed child became the centre of national controversy last year. It finally came to a close on 24 May, however, when a Cairo appeals court ruled in favour of Hind, who, by way of witnesses’ testimonies, established al-Feshawy’s legal paternity of the child. “The outcome of the trial was very positive,” said Huda Badran, chairman of the Cairo-based Arab Alliance for Women. “The result enshrined the rights of the child, who up until then had none.”

    According to Huda, the case should serve as a warning to young people considering urfi unions as an alternative to officially sanctioned marriages. “Perhaps this case has made both young men and women a little more aware of the risks involved in urfi marriages,” she said. “Al-Feshawy must now comply against his will to the responsibilities of fatherhood, which he believed he could escape, while al-Hinnawy had to fight hard to secure her rights and those of her daughter.”

    Government statistics show that approximately 14,000 similar paternity cases are currently pending trial. “Activists tell me they believe the number is actually closer to a million,” said Heba.

    http://www.irinnews.org/report/26954/egypt-landmark-paternity-case-highlights-dangers-of-urfi-marriage


    This is what the Quran is warning about.


    Yes, but if she had a child, then she knew she would have some responsibilities. Why would you want a man to take care of your kid that doesn't want to acknowledge your kid? Kick him to the curb and walk on. What else do you need?
    Why do these ladies have to fight hard to secure their rights? DNA tests don't work? What rights? Monetary? This is for money?

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #52 - June 29, 2014, 09:44 PM

    Even if a 'dad' has nothing to do with his kid I think he should still be forced to pay up for supporting the kid; you are right though DNA tests can be used but they are expensive and many in Egypt are poor. Money is needed unfortunately in the world, wish it wasn't but people buy in to the delusion.
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #53 - June 29, 2014, 09:55 PM

    Sure, he should pay. You can lead a horse to water, too. This is a risk for every single woman out there. Married, unmarried, rich, or poor. There are no guarantees in this life. Every woman should be prepared to raise her kids alone. Every system that prevents a woman from independence, working, and being self sufficient is a system to abandon.

    Dowry is for the rich. The poor cannot afford to get married, and should not have children? See, this is the inverse of that. When you say a marriage should have dowry, for the ¨rights¨ of the woman or man, or kids, you are saying only the rich can marry, only the rich have these ¨rights¨. Classism is nasty business. Better to abandon all this pickiness over who married in what way and just admit this woman was with this guy and this is their offspring. Any law that works against this is a complication and not a help.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #54 - June 29, 2014, 09:57 PM

    Even if a 'dad' has nothing to do with his kid I think he should still be forced to pay up for supporting the kid; you are right though DNA tests can be used but they are expensive and many in Egypt are poor. Money is needed unfortunately in the world, wish it wasn't but people buy in to the delusion.


    At what price comes the money? Shared custody with a man who doesn't want it, and can you trust him not to take it out on the child? He doesn't want to pay. Imagine all the horrid scenarios that result from that. So much safer for so many of us to just walk away. If a man doesn't want his family, his family surely doesn't need him.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #55 - June 29, 2014, 09:58 PM

    Not arguing on some of you points there and I agree the economic system does have to empower the women and the men in these places. Just saying that if you did the splat, splash the cash daddy!
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #56 - June 29, 2014, 10:00 PM

    At what price comes the money? Shared custody with a man who doesn't want it, and can you trust him not to take it out on the child? He doesn't want to pay. Imagine all the horrid scenarios that result from that. So much safer for so many of us to just walk away. If a man doesn't want his family, his family surely doesn't need him.


    I see your point, think though this is an issue of empowering women so they don't pick assholes for sexual partners.
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #57 - June 29, 2014, 10:06 PM

    Sometimes princes become assholes. Again, there is no guarantee on that, at all.
    I assume it is hard for a woman to make a living in Egypt. What makes it hard to do that, needs to be changed. I suspect Islam. Islam does not empower women, it makes them dependent. So the entire deck is just going to be stacked against them, regarding freedom of choice and self sufficiency. Shariah makes it worse. Koranists are still choosing this system. Still choosing to marginalize populations.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #58 - June 29, 2014, 10:11 PM

    I'm not suggesting that Islam doesn't play a role in dis-empowering women. I just think not all Islamic ideals are necessarily bad or bad in intention.
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #59 - June 29, 2014, 10:15 PM

    Good intention doesn't always translate to good practice, unfortunately.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
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