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 Topic: Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams

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  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #120 - July 01, 2014, 03:01 PM

    Quote
    Well the Quran is already here and if humans want other sources what does God has to do with it. I debate Sunnis all the time and no matter how many verses I quote for many it does not move them although it makes them think.


    No, I understand this. I think I'm the resident ex-Quranist here, and I've been in your shoes before. I know trying to get someone with a Sunni background to imagine separating the Quran from the hadith is pretty difficult.
     
    Quote
    Even if the Quran is crystal clear about something (like freedom of religion) and has thousands of verses about something people will simply find a way out.


    This is precisely what I mean, though. That is why I wonder about accepting the Quran as a base on which to form governments and civilizations and communities and whatnot. It's unlike secular codified laws in that it has this problem of interpretation, it has this potential for misuse and abuse if it's Quranism you prefer, and the consequences of this are high. Do you think this is really the best that we can do?
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #121 - July 01, 2014, 03:16 PM

    Quote
    is this the best we can do?


    Not even in the Ball park!  Following is a bit lengthy but is a much better way to arrange things!

    Quote
    The original position is a central feature of John Rawls's social contract account of justice, “justice as fairness,” set forth in A Theory of Justice (TJ). It is designed to be a fair and impartial point of view that is to be adopted in our reasoning about fundamental principles of justice.

     In taking up this point of view, we are to imagine ourselves in the position of free and equal persons who jointly agree upon and commit themselves to principles of social and political justice. The main distinguishing feature of the original position is “the veil of ignorance”: to insure impartiality of judgment, the parties are deprived of all knowledge of their personal characteristics and social and historical circumstances.

    They do know of certain fundamental interests they all have, plus general facts about psychology, economics, biology, and other social and natural sciences. The parties in the original position are presented with a list of the main conceptions of justice drawn from the tradition of social and political philosophy, and are assigned the task of choosing from among these alternatives the conception of justice that best advances their interests in establishing conditions that enable them to effectively pursue their final ends and fundamental interests.

    Rawls contends that the most rational choice for the parties in the original position are the two principles of justice.

    The first principle guarantees the equal basic rights and liberties needed to secure the fundamental interests of free and equal citizens and to pursue a wide range of conceptions of the good.

    The second principle provides fair equality of educational and employment opportunities enabling all to fairly compete for powers and prerogatives of office; and it secures for all a guaranteed minimum of the all-purpose means (including income and wealth) that individuals need to pursue their interests and to maintain their self-respect as free and equal persons.



    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/original-position/

    To be clear, what this means is what society would you choose if you were born a woman, or poor, or disabled....

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #122 - July 01, 2014, 03:46 PM

    Did you read the article I linked to and how a cross amputation is carried out?  What do you think "their hands and feet should be cut off on alternate sides" means?

    I was puzzled why ISIS is crucifying people, now I know why.

    And if Isa is a prophet to you, what happened to him abolishing eye for an eye and replacing it with turn the other cheek?



    Why don't you quote the whole verses? Why do you only take extract from the verses of the Quran? I will not answer you this way.
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #123 - July 01, 2014, 03:53 PM

    Why don't you quote the whole verses? Why do you only take extract from the verses of the Quran? I will not answer you this way.

    Good point.. Good point Mo.,   You seem to be bit upset.

    but why just a verse?  or  whole verse?  why not read whole Quran. all verses??  

    here you go   http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.msg761160#msg761160

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #124 - July 01, 2014, 03:54 PM

    No, I understand this. I think I'm the resident ex-Quranist here, and I've been in your shoes before. I know trying to get someone with a Sunni background to imagine separating the Quran from the hadith is pretty difficult.
     
    This is precisely what I mean, though. That is why I wonder about accepting the Quran as a base on which to form governments and civilizations and communities and whatnot. It's unlike secular codified laws in that it has this problem of interpretation, it has this potential for misuse and abuse if it's Quranism you prefer, and the consequences of this are high. Do you think this is really the best that we can do?


    Well secularism also brought us Stalin, Saddam and Maos far as different interpretations are concerned from a Quranist perspective its only the verses that Quran is not explicit about. But there are many explicit verses in the Quran. Most of the issues discussed in forums like this are only discussed because of sectarian Islam influence. There are many things to discuss from the Quran but most topics so far has been about public policies in sectarian Islam and their Shariah law.

    Finally there is no real difference between a modern free democratic government and a Quranic government if there is anything we can call a Quranic government. If anything a Quranic government by theory will be more free because the authority of the state in a Quranic government is more limited. Plus the foreign policy will be more pacifist since democratic states can go to war for economics while Quran only recognizes defensive war.
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #125 - July 01, 2014, 03:58 PM

    Quote
    Well secularism also brought us Stalin, Saddam and Maos far


    No it didn't. You are talking bullshit. Stalin was brought to the world by totalitarian communism, as was Mao, and Saddam was pan-Arab socialist totalitarianism (his idol was Stalin)

    Despite considering yourself to be enlightened, more enlightened than non Quranist Muslims that you claim to be distinguished from, your ignorant caricature of secularism is straight out of the handbook of the most witless dawah propagandist.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #126 - July 01, 2014, 03:59 PM



    Finally there is no real difference between a modern free democratic government and a Quranic government if there is anything we can call a Quranic government.


    You truly inhabit cloud cuckoo land.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #127 - July 01, 2014, 04:08 PM

    Finally there is no real difference between a modern free democratic government and a Quranic government

     Big Mo is riot .. Yap no difference..  So you didn't answer simple Question Big Mo.

    I asked you., when, where and at what time in the history that such Quranic government was established since the birth of Prophet of Islam??  

    Quote
    If anything a Quranic government by theory will be more free because the authority of the state in a Quranic government is more limited. Plus the foreign policy will be more pacifist since democratic states can go to war for economics while Quran only recognizes defensive war.

    Sure only defensive wars.,   History of Islam since the alleged migration of Prophet to Yathrib is a proof of that .,  

    Here read it..

    Quote
    622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
    623: Nakhla expedition.
    624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
    625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
    626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
    627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
    628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
    629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
    630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
    631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
    632:  Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar.
    633: Campaigns in Bahrain, Oman, Mahrah Yemen, and Hadramaut. Raids in Iraq. Battles of Kazima, Mazar, Walaja, Ulleis, Hirah, Anbar, Ein at tamr, Daumatul Jandal and Firaz.
    634: Battles of Basra, Damascus and Ajnadin. Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph. Battles of Namaraq and Saqatia.
    635: Battle of Bridge. Battle of Buwaib. Conquest of Damascus. Battle of Fahl.
    636: Battle of Yermuk. Battle of Qadsiyia. Conquest of Madain.
    637: Conquest of Syria. Fall of Jerusalem. Battle of Jalula.
    638: Conquest of Jazirah.
    639: Conquest of Khuizistan. Advance into Egypt.
    640: Capture of the post of Caesaria in Syria. Conquest of Shustar and Jande Sabur in Persia. Battle of Babylon in Egypt.
    641: Battle of Nihawand. Conquest Of Alexandria in Egypt.
    642: Battle of Rayy in Persia. Conquest of Egypt. Foundation of Fustat.
    643: Conquest of Azarbaijan and Tabaristan (Russia).
    644: Conquest of Fars, Kerman, Sistan, Mekran and Kharan.[/u] Martyrdom of Hadrat Umar. Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
    645: Campaigns in Fats.
    646: Campaigns in Khurasan, Armeain and Asia Minor.
    647: Campaigns in North Africa. Conquest of the island of Cypress.
    648: Campaigns against the Byzantines.
    651: Naval battle of the Masts against the Byzantines.
    52: Discontentment and disaffection against the rule of Hadrat Othman.
    656: Martyrdom of Hadrat Othman. Hadrat Ali becomes the Caliph. Battle of the Camel.
    657: Hadrat Ali shifts the capital from Madina to Kufa. Battle of Siffin. Arbitration proceedings at Daumaut ul Jandal.
    658: Battle of Nahrawan.
    659: Conquest of Egypt by Mu'awiyah.
    660: Hadrat Ali recaptures Hijaz and Yemen from Mu'awiyah. Mu'awiyah declares himself as the Caliph at Damascus.
    661: Martyrdom of Hadrat Ali. Accession of Hadrat Hasan and his abdication. Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph.
    662: Khawarij revolts.
    666: Raid of Sicily.
    670: Advance in North Africa. Uqba b Nafe founds the town of Qairowan in Tunisia. Conquest of Kabul.
    672: Capture of the island of Rhodes. Campaigns in Khurasan.
    674: The Muslims cross the Oxus. Bukhara becomes a vassal state.
    677: Occupation of Sarnarkand and Tirmiz. Siege of Constantinople.
    680: Death of Muawiyah. Accession of Yazid. Tragedy of Kerbala and martyrdom of Hadrat Hussain.
    682: In North Africa Uqba b Nafe marches to the Atlantic, is ambushed and killed at Biskra. The Muslims evacuate Qairowan and withdraw to Burqa.
    683: Death of Yazid. Accession of Mu'awiyah II.
    684: Abdullah b Zubair declares himself aS the Caliph at'Makkah. Marwan I becomes the Caliph' at Damascus. Battle of Marj Rahat.
    685: Death of Marwan I. Abdul Malik becomes the Caliph at Damascus. Battle of Ain ul Wada.
    686: Mukhtar declares himself as the Caliph at Kufa.
    687: Battle of Kufa between the forces of Mukhtar and Abdullah b Zubair. Mukhtar killed.
    691: Battle of Deir ul Jaliq. Kufa falls to Abdul Malik.
    692: The fall of Makkah. Death of Abdullah b Zubair. Abdul Malik becomes the sole Caliph.
    695: Khawarij revolts in Jazira and Ahwaz. Battle of the Karun. Campaigns against Kahina in North Africa. The' Muslims once again withdraw to Barqa. The Muslims advance in Transoxiana and occupy Kish.
    700: Campaigns against the Berbers in North Africa.

    See how Quran made so many governments and how good they were

    Hell .,   ... go read whole thread and how Quranic law made life as good as Life in Jannah..  Big Mo  

    Two Things Are Infinite: the Universe and Human Stupidity .....  who said that?  Must be a fool..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #128 - July 01, 2014, 04:22 PM

    Well secularism also brought us Stalin, Saddam and Maos far as different interpretations are concerned from a Quranist perspective its only the verses that Quran is not explicit about. But there are many explicit verses in the Quran. Most of the issues discussed in forums like this are only discussed because of sectarian Islam influence. There are many things to discuss from the Quran but most topics so far has been about public policies in sectarian Islam and their Shariah law.

    Finally there is no real difference between a modern free democratic government and a Quranic government if there is anything we can call a Quranic government. If anything a Quranic government by theory will be more free because the authority of the state in a Quranic government is more limited. Plus the foreign policy will be more pacifist since democratic states can go to war for economics while Quran only recognizes defensive war.


    I disagree with a lot of this, but you've already gotten your criticisms of it, so I will set that aside. If we just assume that secular laws are fundamentally similar to Quranic law, it still does not quite answer my question, which is do you really believe that this is it, that this is the pinnacle of law and order, that there is no conceivable law that would be better than that of the Quran?

    Interestingly, you speak of a Quranic government allowing more freedom because the law is so limited. Thankfully, where I come from, there are many laws in place to protect individual rights. One of the greatest failures of the Quran is its inability to protect the minority. I hear apologist claims all the time, and indeed was an annoying vendor of them at some point in my life. Someone may bring me a verse that seems like it's putting women at a disadvantage, or allowing them to be treated as children and punished, but then I would turn around and try to buffer it by saying, "Yes, but look at how the Quran talks about how great it is to treat your wives well and to be fair to them, and is beating them badly fair?" Or someone would come to me talking about how the Quran condones slavery, and I would go off about how slavery was discouraged and slaves must be treated fairly and releasing the slaves carried a great reward, and then try to put it in a historical context and say it is no longer applicable. You know, the same old junk over and over, filing the rough edges of the bad as much as possible, inflating the good, and then trying to say that the good negated the iffy parts of the Quran.

    Here's what my major problem with your claims are. It is a freer government for everyone but the woman. It is a freer government for everyone besides the polytheist. For everyone except the homosexuals. For everyone besides the slave. In a decent secular government, the rights of the minority are protected completely, and injustice is not simply strongly discouraged, it is plainly forbidden, with immediate consequences for those who beat, enslave, and oppress, and protection for those victims. Can you show me where in the Quran it does the same?
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #129 - July 01, 2014, 04:30 PM

    No it didn't. You are talking bullshit. Stalin was brought to the world by totalitarian communism, as was Mao, and Saddam was pan-Arab socialist totalitarianism (his idol was Stalin)

    Despite considering yourself to be enlightened, more enlightened than non Quranist Muslims that you claim to be distinguished from, your ignorant caricature of secularism is straight out of the handbook of the most witless dawah propagandist.



    I am not claiming anything. I am just trying to follow the Quran. I am a Quranist.

    Anyways secularism is not a real term. What happened in Europe was a seperation of Church and State. It was brought about mainly because of the protestant revolution.



    In political terms, secularism is a movement towards the separation of religion and government (often termed the separation of church and state). This can refer to reducing ties between a government and a state religion, replacing laws based on scripture (such as the Torah and Sharia law) with civil laws, and eliminating discrimination on the basis of religion. This is said to add to democracy by protecting the rights of religious minorities.[8]

    Other scholars, such as Jacques Berlinerblau of the Program for Jewish Civilization at Georgetown University, have argued separation of church and state is but one possible strategy to be deployed by secular governments. What all secular governments, from the democratic to the authoritarian, share is a concern about relations between church and state, Each secular government may find its own unique policy prescriptions for dealing with that concern (separation being but one of those possible policies. French models in which the state carefully monitors and regulates the church being another) [9]

    Ira M. Lapidus, an Emeritus Professor of Middle Eastern and Islamic History at The University of California at Berkeley, analyses the separation of religion and state in the early Islamic history.[17] First, he points out the integral unity of religious and political authorities while the Prophet Muhammad was leading the ummah:

    The prevailing view among Islamists is that classical Islamic society does not distinguish between the religious and the political aspects of communal life. The Caliphate was both the religious and the political leadership of the community of Muslims, whose individual believers and subjects belonged to a polity defined by religious allegiance. [...] Since Muhammad was the Prophet who revealed God's will in all of life's concerns, belief in Islam entailed both loyalty to a chief whose authority derived from his religious position, and membership in the umma- the community he led. In this sense, religious and political values and religious and political offices were inseparable.[18]

    However, Lapidus claims that secular governments had existed in the Muslim world since the 10th century, arguing that an effective separation of religion and politics came into being between 'ulama and political and military leaders under the symbolic authority of the Caliph.:

    In fact, religious and political life developed distinct spheres of experience, with independent values, leaders, and organizations. From the middle of the tenth century effective control of the Arab-Muslim empire had passed into the hands of generals, administrators, governors, and local provincial lords; the Caliphs had lost all effective political power. Governments in Islamic lands were henceforth secular regimes - Sultanates - in theory authorized by the Caliphs, but actually legitimized by the need for public order. Henceforth, Muslim states were fully differentiated political bodies without any intrinsic religious character, though they were officially loyal to Islam and committed to its defense.[19]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism#State_secularism
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #130 - July 01, 2014, 04:32 PM

    I disagree with a lot of this, but you've already gotten your criticisms of it, so I will set that aside. If we just assume that secular laws are fundamentally similar to Quranic law, it still does not quite answer my question, which is do you really believe that this is it, that this is the pinnacle of law and order, that there is no conceivable law that would be better than that of the Quran?

    Interestingly, you speak of a Quranic government allowing more freedom because the law is so limited. Thankfully, where I come from, there are many laws in place to protect individual rights. One of the greatest failures of the Quran is its inability to protect the minority. I hear apologist claims all the time, and indeed was an annoying vendor of them at some point in my life. Someone may bring me a verse that seems like it's putting women at a disadvantage, or allowing them to be treated as children and punished, but then I would turn around and try to buffer it by saying, "Yes, but look at how the Quran talks about how great it is to treat your wives well and to be fair to them, and is beating them badly fair?" Or someone would come to me talking about how the Quran condones slavery, and I would go off about how slavery was discouraged and slaves must be treated fairly and releasing the slaves carried a great reward, and then try to put it in a historical context and say it is no longer applicable. You know, the same old junk over and over, filing the rough edges of the bad as much as possible, inflating the good, and then trying to say that the good negated the iffy parts of the Quran.

    Here's what my major problem with your claims are. It is a freer government for everyone but the woman. It is a freer government for everyone besides the polytheist. For everyone except the homosexuals. For everyone besides the slave. In a decent secular government, the rights of the minority are protected completely, and injustice is not simply strongly discouraged, it is plainly forbidden, with immediate consequences for those who beat, enslave, and oppress, and protection for those victims. Can you show me where in the Quran it does the same?


    You are talking about Sunni/Shia Islam. I am talking about Quranic Islam. Which is the whole point of this thread. They are two different Islams.
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #131 - July 01, 2014, 04:36 PM

    I am not claiming anything. I am just trying to follow the Quran. I am a Quranist.

    Anyways secularism is not a real term. What happened in Europe was a seperation of Church and State. It was brought about mainly because of the protestant revolution.
    [s] 


    In political terms, secularism is a movement towards the separation of religion and government (often termed the separation of church and state). This can refer to reducing ties between a government and a state religion, replacing laws based on scripture (such as the Torah and Sharia law) with civil laws, and eliminating discrimination on the basis of religion. This is said to add to democracy by protecting the rights of religious minorities.[8]

    Other scholars, such as Jacques Berlinerblau of the Program for Jewish Civilization at Georgetown University, have argued separation of church and state is but one possible strategy to be deployed by secular governments. [b]What all secular governments, from the democratic to the authoritarian, share is a concern about relations between church and state[/b], Each secular government may find its own unique policy prescriptions for dealing with that concern (separation being but one of those possible policies. French models in which the state carefully monitors and regulates the church being another) [9]

    Ira M. Lapidus, an Emeritus Professor of Middle Eastern and Islamic History at The University of California at Berkeley, analyses the separation of religion and state in the early Islamic history.[17] First, he points out the integral unity of religious and political authorities while the Prophet Muhammad was leading the ummah:

    The prevailing view among Islamists is that classical Islamic society does not distinguish between the religious and the political aspects of communal life. The Caliphate was both the religious and the political leadership of the community of Muslims, whose individual believers and subjects belonged to a polity defined by religious allegiance. [...] Since Muhammad was the Prophet who revealed God's will in all of life's concerns, belief in Islam entailed both loyalty to a chief whose authority derived from his religious position, and membership in the umma- the community he led. In this sense, religious and political values and religious and political offices were inseparable.[18]

    However, Lapidus claims that secular governments had existed in the Muslim world since the 10th century, arguing that an effective separation of religion and politics came into being between 'ulama and political and military leaders under the symbolic authority of the Caliph.:

    In fact, religious and political life developed distinct spheres of experience, with independent values, leaders, and organizations. From the middle of the tenth century effective control of the Arab-Muslim empire had passed into the hands of generals, administrators, governors, and local provincial lords; the Caliphs had lost all effective political power. Governments in Islamic lands were henceforth secular regimes - Sultanates - in theory authorized by the Caliphs, but actually legitimized by the need for public order. Henceforth, Muslim states were fully differentiated political bodies without any intrinsic religious character, though they were officially loyal to Islam and committed to its defense.[19][/s]

    [s]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism#State_secularism[/s]

    before following Quran, Making governaments and governing body out of Quran., first one must read Quran

    And I don't think Big Mo ever read Quran. And  I also think Prophet of Islam, The little Muhammad NEVER READ QURAN..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #132 - July 01, 2014, 04:53 PM

    You are talking about Sunni/Shia Islam. I am talking about Quranic Islam. Which is the whole point of this thread. They are two different Islams.


    Which part made you think I am speaking of anything other than the Quran?
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #133 - July 01, 2014, 04:57 PM

    lol I love how many different islams there are  Cheesy

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #134 - July 01, 2014, 04:59 PM

    So many Islam's there ain't an Islam!
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #135 - July 01, 2014, 05:04 PM

    Quote
    You are talking about Sunni/Shia Islam. I am talking about Quranic Islam. Which is the whole point of this thread. They are two different Islams.

    Which part made you think I am speaking of anything other than the Quran?


    oh common  lua .,   you didn't know that ,   Shia and sunnis of Islam  do not follow Quran?   They Hate Quran, They burn Quran all the time.,  What do you think  they do every Friday gatherings?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc-zdP8s-Lo

    See that is Sunni Mosques Friday preaching.. and this is Shia..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH3rRSy_PA8

    And Off course... UK ..USA.. France .. we can get the Quran preaching from all countries..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HRFd9zsY8Y

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #136 - July 01, 2014, 05:05 PM

    So Bigmo how are you so sure your Islam is the right one?

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #137 - July 01, 2014, 05:05 PM

    So many Islam's there ain't an Islam!


    That's one of the major criticisms Quranism tries to address by taking the common denominator and promoting that alone as law and trimming what it is we differ over.

    However, I fear Bigmo might be on autopilot here (or maybe he's just skimming replies at this point) if he didn't recognize the properties of the Quran.
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #138 - July 01, 2014, 05:07 PM

    So Bigmo how are you so sure your Islam is the right one?

    Well  Big Mo knows that because he is going to form a Quran Law, and  he is going to make World  Government out of it..

    ....The  Universal Government.. No Questions asked., because it is word of Allah/God..


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #139 - July 01, 2014, 05:19 PM

    You know I can just imagine a conversation with god

    Bigmo: Your hadiths were too confusing so I just decided to follow the Quraan

    Allah: But Big mo I sent Bigger Mo as a guide to you, his words were there to put mine in context

    Bigmo: But too many hadith contradicted your word and each other it was too bogus

    Allah: YOu suppose to read it in contexts according to the situations and use the brain I gave you to derive rules I could have just pointed out by myself.

    Bigmo: But so many hadith related were not even words of Bigger Mo but words of his companions, really only I could trust your words

    Allah turns to bigger Mo and says: Whatya say, he overlooked you and went straight to me, what should we do?

    Bigger Mo: Toss him, that is not true Islam

    *that's one scenario of what could happen if any islam was real*

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #140 - July 01, 2014, 06:25 PM

    So Bigmo how are you so sure your Islam is the right one?


    Well its the Quranic one. Yes Sunni and Shia Islam believe in the Quran as an article of faith, but they do not see it as a religion. Their Shariah law is not derived from the Quran.

    This is not something new. Orientalist have recognized that for a while.

     Herbert Berg- PhD

    Summary of Western studies on Hadiths

    Schacht asserts that hadiths, particularly from Muhammad, did not form, together with the Qur’an, the original bases of Islamic law and jurisprudence as is traditionally assumed. Rather, hadiths were an innovation begun after some of the legal foundation had already been built. “The ancient schools of law shared the old concept of sunna or ‘living tradition’ as the ideal practice of the community, expressed in the accepted doctrine of the school.” And this ideal practice was embodied in various forms, but certainly not exclusively in the hadiths from the Prophet. Schacht argues that it was not until al-Shafi`i that ‘sunna’ was exclusively identified with the contents of hadiths from the Prophet to which he gave, not for the first time, but for the first time consistently, overriding authority. Al-Shafi`i argued that even a single, isolated hadith going back to Muhammad, assuming its isnad is not suspect, takes precedence over the opinions and arguments of any and all Companions, Successors, and later authorities. Schacht notes that:

    Two generations before Shafi`i reference to traditions from Companions and Successors was the rule, to traditions from the Prophet himself the exception, and it was left to Shafi`i to make the exception the principle. We shall have to conclude that, generally and broadly speaking, traditions from Companions and Successors are earlier than those from the Prophet.

    Based on these conclusions, Schacht offers the following schema of the growth of legal hadiths. The ancient schools of law had a ‘living tradition’ (sunna) which was largely based on individual reasoning (ra’y). Later this sunna came to be associated with and attributed to the earlier generations of the Successors and Companions. Later still, hadiths with isnads extending back to Muhammad came into circulation by traditionists towards the middle of the second century. Finally, the efforts of al-Shafi`i and other traditionists secured for these hadiths from the Prophet supreme authority.

    Goldziher maintains that, while reliance on the sunna to regulate the empire was favoured, there was still in these early years of Islam insufficient material going back to Muhammad himself. Scholars sought to fill the gaps left by the Qur’an and the sunna with material from other sources. Some borrowed from Roman law. Others attempted to fill these lacunae with their own opinions (ra’y). This latter option came under a concerted attack by those who believed that all legal and ethical questions (not addressed by the Qur’an) must be referred back to the Prophet himself, that is, must be rooted in hadiths.These supporters of hadiths (ahl al-hadith) were extremely successful in establishing hadiths as a primary source of law and in discrediting ra’y. But in many ways it was a Pyrrhic victory. The various legal madhhabs were loath to sacrifice their doctrines and so they found it more expedient to fabricate hadiths or adapt existing hadiths in their support. Even the advocates of ra’y were eventually persuaded or cajoled into accepting the authority of hadiths and so they too “found” hadiths which substantiated their doctrines that had hitherto been based upon the opinions of their schools’ founders and teachers. The insistence of the advocates of hadiths that the only opinions of any value were those which could appeal to the authority of the Prophet resulted in the situation that “where no traditional matter was to be had, men speedily began to fabricate it. The greater the demand, the busier was invention with the manufacture of apocryphal traditions in support of the respective theses.”

    In summary, Goldziher sees in hadiths “a battlefield of the political and dynastic conflicts of the first few centuries of Islam; it is a mirror of the aspirations of various parties, each of which wants to make the Prophet himself their witness and authority.” Likewise,

    Every stream and counter-stream of thought in Islam has found its expression in the form of a hadith, and there is no difference in this respect between the various contrasting opinions in whatever field. What we learnt about political parties holds true too for differences regarding religious law, dogmatic points of difference etc. Every ra’y or hawa, every sunna and bid`a has sought and found expression in the form of hadith.

    And even though Muslim traditionalists developed elaborate means to scrutinize the mass of traditions that were then extant in the Muslim lands, they were “able to exclude only part of the most obvious falsifications from the hadith material.” Goldziher, for all his scepticism, accepted that the practice of preserving hadiths was authentic and that some hadiths were likely to be authentic. However, having said that, Goldziher is adamant in maintaining that:

    In the absence of authentic evidence it would indeed be rash to attempt to express the most tentative opinions as to which parts of the hadith are the oldest material, or even as to which of them date back to the generation immediately following the Prophet’s death. Closer acquaintance with the vast stock of hadiths induces sceptical caution rather than optimistic trust regarding the material brought together in the carefully compiled collections.

    Herbert Berg PhD



    So this was known for some time now that Shariah law was a later invention and hadiths came to give them Islamic legitimacy.
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #141 - July 01, 2014, 06:27 PM

    Quote
    The University of Leeds: Qurany Tool

    Noorhan Abbas & Dr. Eric Atwell


    Chapter Name:Al-Araf Verse No:124

    لأُقَطِّعَنَّ أَيْدِيَكُمْ وَأَرْجُلَكُم مِّنْ خِلاَفٍ ثُمَّ لأُصَلِّبَنَّكُمْ أَجْمَعِينَ {124
    007:124 Khan   
    :
    "Surely, I will cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, then I will crucify you all."
    007:124 Maulana   
    :
    I shall certainly cut off your hands and your feet on opposites sides, then I shall crucify you all together!
    007:124 Pickthal   
    :
    Surely I shall have your hands and feet cut off upon alternate sides. Then I shall crucify you every one.
    007:124 Rashad   
    :
    "I will cut your hands and feet on alternate sides, then I will crucify you all."
    007:124 Sarwar   
    :
    I will cut off your hands and feet on the alternate sides and crucify you all."
    007:124 Shakir   
    :
    I will certainly cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, then will I crucify you all together.
    007:124 Sherali   
    :
    'Most surely will I cut off your hands and your feet on account of your disobedience. Then will I surely crucify you all together.'
    007:124 Yusufali   
    :
    "Be sure I will cut off your hands and your feet on apposite sides, and I will cause you all to die on the cross.


    http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/nora/html/7-124.html

    The discussion about context is irrelevant.  The point is it is in the koran and your strange god allegedly okayed it.  Time and place are irrelevant.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #142 - July 01, 2014, 06:29 PM

     Smiley ah to each there own

    As long as you are happy  Wink

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #143 - July 01, 2014, 06:31 PM

    Anyone discussing which koran yet?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #144 - July 01, 2014, 06:33 PM

     Cheesy lol how many quraans are there now

    It does seem like they discussing two different quraans in this thread

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #145 - July 01, 2014, 06:34 PM

    Which part made you think I am speaking of anything other than the Quran?


    The part about slaves and prisoners of war, or about death to adultery or about
    I disagree with a lot of this, but you've already gotten your criticisms of it, so I will set that aside. If we just assume that secular laws are fundamentally similar to Quranic law, it still does not quite answer my question, which is do you really believe that this is it, that this is the pinnacle of law and order, that there is no conceivable law that would be better than that of the Quran?

    Interestingly, you speak of a Quranic government allowing more freedom because the law is so limited. Thankfully, where I come from, there are many laws in place to protect individual rights. One of the greatest failures of the Quran is its inability to protect the minority. I hear apologist claims all the time, and indeed was an annoying vendor of them at some point in my life. Someone may bring me a verse that seems like it's putting women at a disadvantage, or allowing them to be treated as children and punished, but then I would turn around and try to buffer it by saying, "Yes, but look at how the Quran talks about how great it is to treat your wives well and to be fair to them, and is beating them badly fair?" Or someone would come to me talking about how the Quran condones slavery, and I would go off about how slavery was discouraged and slaves must be treated fairly and releasing the slaves carried a great reward, and then try to put it in a historical context and say it is no longer applicable. You know, the same old junk over and over, filing the rough edges of the bad as much as possible, inflating the good, and then trying to say that the good negated the iffy parts of the Quran.

    Here's what my major problem with your claims are. It is a freer government for everyone but the woman. It is a freer government for everyone besides the polytheist. For everyone except the homosexuals. For everyone besides the slave. In a decent secular government, the rights of the minority are protected completely, and injustice is not simply strongly discouraged, it is plainly forbidden, with immediate consequences for those who beat, enslave, and oppress, and protection for those victims. Can you show me where in the Quran it does the same?


    Quran abolished slavery and considers it to be an oppressive act. The Quran says let the polytheist worship what they want. God will judge them in the after life. I don't know what you mean by minorities. The Quran did not allow anyone to hold any homosexuals accountable. In fact many Quranist are strong supporter of gay rights and some even support gay marriages. I have dealt with all these issues before in this thread. I have also dealt with this myth of beating wives. For some reason you are not able to understand what this whole thread is about.  Or your scared of reading my posts.
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #146 - July 01, 2014, 06:37 PM

    http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/nora/html/7-124.html

    The discussion about context is irrelevant.  The point is it is in the koran and your strange god allegedly okayed it.  Time and place are irrelevant.


    That verse is quoting the Pharaoh who the Quran says was a tyrant that God destroyed. If the God of the Koran okayed it than that God would not have destroyed him.
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #147 - July 01, 2014, 06:47 PM

    I am not claiming anything. I am just trying to follow the Quran. I am a Quranist.


    Seriously dude, you're just making stuff up as you go along

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #148 - July 01, 2014, 06:58 PM

    Quote
    BIG MO says :
    That verse is quoting the Pharaoh who the Quran says was a tyrant that God destroyed. If the God of the Koran okayed it than that God would not have destroyed him.

    Yap Big Mo is riot.. Quran just talks about past silly stories OT & NT..   Let use read some..
    Quote
    ............ Surely (as for) those who disbelieve, even if they had what is in the earth, all of it, and the like of it with it, that they might ransom themselves with it from the punishment of the day of resurrection, it shall not be accepted from them, and they shall have a painful punishment.

    ................. They would desire to go forth from the fire, and they shall not go forth from it, and they shall have a lasting punishment.

    ..............And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

    ....... But whoever repents after his iniquity and reforms (himself), then surely Allah will turn to him (mercifully); surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    ......... Do you not know that Allah-- His is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth; He chastises whom He pleases; and forgives whom He pleases and Allah has power over all things....

    Cut the DAMN HANDS,   stupid thief stealing my food ..

      All those 6 verse are  from Surah Al-Maeda .. Yes we got to make those  as rules for all governments..  Indeed Allat is  mighty and wise.,  Opps...... I mean  Allah

    And that wise guys also says
    Quote
    O you prophet, why do you prohibit what God has made lawful for you, seeking to please your wives? God is Forgiver, Compassionate.

     When the prophet disclosed a hadith to some of his wives, then one of them spread it, and God revealed it to him, he recognized part of it and denied part. So when he informed her, she said, "Who informed you of this?" He said, "I was informed by the Knowledgeable, the Ever-aware."*

    ....Maybe, his Lord, if he divorce you, will give him in your place wives better than you, submissive, faithful, obedient, penitent, adorers, fasters, widows and virgins. ...


    yes.. yes Virgins Please..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Koranic Law Versus Shariah Law - two different Islams
     Reply #149 - July 01, 2014, 07:02 PM

    I don't blame Bigmo guys. The Quranist sites have different translations of the Quran which they claim as right as they are free from the influences of the Hadith. It seems to me that they somehow twist the Quranic verses to be secular. Whether they are really doing it right or wrong can be judged by people who are learned in Arabic language. Yes the Quran-only Muslims are a sect although small in number. One site I know even claims that the word 'khalaq' in the Quran means creation in gradual stages or evolution. They have revolutionary ideas like houris are both men and women, only covering the bosom and not the face and head is the real purpose of 'khimar' of the Quran, etc.

    I say all of it stems from a desire to be rational, although I can't call the Quranists fully logical.
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